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On April 10 2012 01:29 craaaaack wrote:
sorry if this has been asked before:
zvt assuming we are both at around 100-150 supply and I'm still on muta/ling/baneling and hive is just started.
terran moves out with a very tank heavy comp (5-7 tanks) and mm. how to engage?
if I were you, I would either:
1) harass with mutas-> a) he retreats, unsiege, move ling baneling army to engage right away. b) he pushes, try to snipe tanks that are not protected.
2) counter attack with everything.
but then it all depends upgrades and positioning. If you have more or enough with the better upgrades, no reason not to just crush that army
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Best response to natural being blocked ZvP?
I have seen people take the third, or wait for lings to clear the natural, or have the scouting drone place a hatch in the toss base, or take the fourth in certain maps.
What I like to do, is send a drone out to scout on 13 and try to delay the nexus, usually there is a probe waiting at the natural, I send my hatch drone to the third, if the probe follows I send a third drone to take the natural, if the probe follows and drops a pylon at the natural, I drop my hatch at his natural and wait for lings to clear the natural pylon. Then I take my natural and cancel the hatch at his.
This typically works against FFE, I get my natural up before him, or I scout a nexus before cannon and I can get lings into his base.
However, if my drone takes the third and his probe stays at the natural, then my scout finds a gateway/core, what should i do? This is similar to what nestea had against squirtle, he took the gold as his first and saw a gate/core that ended up into a 3 gate push for the win. I'm assuming you should cancel the third immediately and take the natural, but obviously looking at nestea it seems you are quite behind to try to hold a 3 or 4 gate.
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On April 10 2012 02:08 kiklion wrote:
Best response to natural being blocked ZvP?
I have seen people take the third, or wait for lings to clear the natural, or have the scouting drone place a hatch in the toss base, or take the fourth in certain maps.
What I like to do, is send a drone out to scout on 13 and try to delay the nexus, usually there is a probe waiting at the natural, I send my hatch drone to the third, if the probe follows I send a third drone to take the natural, if the probe follows and drops a pylon at the natural, I drop my hatch at his natural and wait for lings to clear the natural pylon. Then I take my natural and cancel the hatch at his.
This typically works against FFE, I get my natural up before him, or I scout a nexus before cannon and I can get lings into his base.
However, if my drone takes the third and his probe stays at the natural, then my scout finds a gateway/core, what should i do? This is similar to what nestea had against squirtle, he took the gold as his first and saw a gate/core that ended up into a 3 gate push for the win. I'm assuming you should cancel the third immediately and take the natural, but obviously looking at nestea it seems you are quite behind to try to hold a 3 or 4 gate.
You don't HAVE to take the third if your nat gets blocked, it's okay to delay your nat and get your third at the normal time, this'll give you plenty of time to confirm a FFE.
Taking your third first is kind of a calculated risk, and is very map dependent. For example Antiga is great for doing it, Shakuras not so much (although it's still done, hence the calculated risk)
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On April 10 2012 02:08 kiklion wrote:
Best response to natural being blocked ZvP?
I have seen people take the third, or wait for lings to clear the natural, or have the scouting drone place a hatch in the toss base, or take the fourth in certain maps.
What I like to do, is send a drone out to scout on 13 and try to delay the nexus, usually there is a probe waiting at the natural, I send my hatch drone to the third, if the probe follows I send a third drone to take the natural, if the probe follows and drops a pylon at the natural, I drop my hatch at his natural and wait for lings to clear the natural pylon. Then I take my natural and cancel the hatch at his.
This typically works against FFE, I get my natural up before him, or I scout a nexus before cannon and I can get lings into his base.
However, if my drone takes the third and his probe stays at the natural, then my scout finds a gateway/core, what should i do? This is similar to what nestea had against squirtle, he took the gold as his first and saw a gate/core that ended up into a 3 gate push for the win. I'm assuming you should cancel the third immediately and take the natural, but obviously looking at nestea it seems you are quite behind to try to hold a 3 or 4 gate.
It seems very stylistic/situational. If you scout a FFE, taking your third should be a fine choice on most maps. If you don't see FFE, you may want to consider waiting until your lings are out to take the pylon and then be active with the lings to see whats coming.
It also depends on when you put down your pool. I've seen Ret do an 11 pool after overlord to take out the pylon with 4-6 lings. This looks like it is a way to guarantee timings, which may be the way to go since it is a "sure thing" of when you will get your hatch down regardless of if the pylon is there or not. It also gives you a build order that works no matter if there is an FFE or not and is a good way to practice the same thing every game.
I wouldn't suggest the hatch cancel in his natural just because its a large investment that doesn't delay much, especially when you could use those minerals to get a second queen up or something. You also might want to scout earlier than 13 on 4 player maps if you want to deny the expo with the drone.
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On April 10 2012 00:06 robaq wrote:Diamond league zerg here. I just can't get things done right in ZvT, midgame is not a problem, as i like ling/bane/muta a lot, but somehow i can't transition out of it. What is the proper infestation pit timing? It is better to go ultra or straight to broods? My problem can be clearly seen in this replay: http://drop.sc/156874Constantly keeping terran at bay, even clearing out almost the entire third while on 4 bases, yet somehow he gets some mech out and lots of marines and suddenly I can't do a thing.
Maybe after you've started making t2 upgrades ? could be a good way to start throwing down the infestor's pit and get ready to hive ?
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On April 10 2012 09:25 RaiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 00:06 robaq wrote:Diamond league zerg here. I just can't get things done right in ZvT, midgame is not a problem, as i like ling/bane/muta a lot, but somehow i can't transition out of it. What is the proper infestation pit timing? It is better to go ultra or straight to broods? My problem can be clearly seen in this replay: http://drop.sc/156874Constantly keeping terran at bay, even clearing out almost the entire third while on 4 bases, yet somehow he gets some mech out and lots of marines and suddenly I can't do a thing. Maybe after you've started making t2 upgrades ? could be a good way to start throwing down the infestor's pit and get ready to hive ?
I get infestation pit around the time of my t2 upgrades. As far as Ultras Vs BLs, I've been debating this a bit myself. I think when terran is being more agressive with MMM type plays (drops, etc) it might be better to have Ultras for faster counter attacks. The jury is still out for me on whether that is truly the case. Against mech, ultras are pretty bad, thors with tank support rip them up. BLs are always a good option, but you might not have the time to get them out and in the right place if they are aggressive.
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Ok old school question. I'm silver and if my protoss opp doesn't ffe it's almost always a 4-gate. When should I cut probes against a 4-gate? What if I can't get an ovie into his base to confirm? Should I prepare is if it's a 4-gate?
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On April 11 2012 00:02 krelian wrote:
Ok old school question. I'm silver and if my protoss opp doesn't ffe it's almost always a 4-gate. When should I cut probes against a 4-gate? What if I can't get an ovie into his base to confirm? Should I prepare is if it's a 4-gate?
a 4 gate should be pretty easy to stop. Just make sure you scout to know for sure you are getting 4 gated. Spine crawlers and lings should be enough to stop a 4 gate.
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http://drop.sc/157591
The above game is me vs some stupid 2 base all-in that I can't beat.
I feel my opening is god awful, but I'm still trying to get the 8 minute opener down, so bear with me there. I noticed my gas was REALLY, REALLY high and I didn't have a use for it, so that definitely hurt my mineral income.
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http://drop.sc/157600
vs same guy as the above replay, I get my opener down better and end up with ~53 drones at 8 minutes.
Now, in this game, I go for +1 armor and then start making units nonstop. The first time we engage, I'm up about 20 supply, get a full surround on two immorals, some sentries, and irrelevant tanky units, and my armor evaporates. I think this was partly due to my late roach speed, but, I doubt that would have made much of a difference.
I'm really, really needing help in ZvP. All I do is lose, lose, lose no matter what...:'(
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On April 11 2012 00:08 Proxee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 00:02 krelian wrote:
Ok old school question. I'm silver and if my protoss opp doesn't ffe it's almost always a 4-gate. When should I cut probes against a 4-gate? What if I can't get an ovie into his base to confirm? Should I prepare is if it's a 4-gate? a 4 gate should be pretty easy to stop. Just make sure you scout to know for sure you are getting 4 gated. Spine crawlers and lings should be enough to stop a 4 gate.
Proxee is right, the 4 gate is a dead strategy. To add to his response though, you can do a few things to be sure the 4 gate is incoming.
Steal and cancel his second gas for as long as possible, this way you delay any 1 base tech play and you can get a periodic check on how much chrono is saved. If he's saving chrono boost more than likely a 4 gate is incoming.
Make sure you are checking for his expansion, if there is no attempt by ~5:30 AND he hasn't taken his second gas yet, 4 gate is incoming. A typical response is to build a spine every 20-ish seconds after 5:30 that he doesn't get his expo.
Check to see if chrono boost was being spent on warpgate research (chrono boosting the core) this isn't a guaranteed tell, but a good check.
keep a few sets of lings wandering the map checking for proxy pylons. This is a good idea no matter what strategy is happening, but can really destroy the 4gate.
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Hey I need help with some specific things in the ZvP match up. I'm mid masters and have trouble with a few things.
1. Stargate play. If I see 2 gas at expo is this a pretty clear sign of SG play? Also I don't know the correct response, I get hydras, but this seems to really strain my economy seeing as I have to get extra gas. Also I take this opportunity to drone up a bit because I know his ground army will be quite weak, is this correct?
2. Engaging certain protoss players. My ideal midgame composition is roaches, hydras, corruptors if there are colossus, and baneling drops. Late game is brood infestor. I'll admit, most protoss I face just sit there while I drop banes on them, however I've faced some which are just impossible to beat it seems. I don't know how to face players who constantly kite thereby nullifying baneling drops, then FF which kills off some of my army and cuts it of from the rest. If my corruptors fly over the FF, they get destroyed by stalker fire. Then they just rinse and repeat. I can't resupply fast enough and it seems like nothing works against these players. I'm thinking of adding in infestors to fungal the army in place while I hold them down, however that is a crap ton of gas.
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On April 11 2012 07:42 Chinesewonder wrote:
Hey I need help with some specific things in the ZvP match up. I'm mid masters and have trouble with a few things.
1. Stargate play. If I see 2 gas at expo is this a pretty clear sign of SG play? Also I don't know the correct response, I get hydras, but this seems to really strain my economy seeing as I have to get extra gas. Also I take this opportunity to drone up a bit because I know his ground army will be quite weak, is this correct?
2. Engaging certain protoss players. My ideal midgame composition is roaches, hydras, corruptors if there are colossus, and baneling drops. Late game is brood infestor. I'll admit, most protoss I face just sit there while I drop banes on them, however I've faced some which are just impossible to beat it seems. I don't know how to face players who constantly kite thereby nullifying baneling drops, then FF which kills off some of my army and cuts it of from the rest. If my corruptors fly over the FF, they get destroyed by stalker fire. Then they just rinse and repeat. I can't resupply fast enough and it seems like nothing works against these players. I'm thinking of adding in infestors to fungal the army in place while I hold them down, however that is a crap ton of gas.
Also masters here, in case you're screening replies.
1. It depends on the timing. If you scout his natural gas around 6:45 and see 2 gases already taken (and being mined, don't get fooled by toss taking 2 fake gases and then 8 gating you), it signifies SUPER tech heavy play like DT or double stargate. The general zealot/voidray timing that most toss still execute is a 2 gas build.
Generally you want to make one spore at your third (and in your main if it's possible for him to do a zealot warpin there like antiga) and use 2 queens to slap back the voidrays. Only start making more spores if you see him making lots of phoenixes. And you won't need to make hydras this early at all if he's going single stargate, but you'll need them against 2 stargates. That scouting information is really important, because it'll let you squeeze out some extra drones while you're getting up to hydralisks because you're not worried about some kind of ridiculously fast attack by ground.
2. Roach hydra corruptor is really really outdated, like 9-12 months ago outdated. Banerain also took a big hit since the patch that changed it so that you can't drop on units that are closely packed together anymore. I see losira lose games all the time on stream where he's ridiculously far ahead, chooses to make banerain, and toss just lololololol blink kites all his stalks and kills the overlords. I'd recommend one of two things: if you enjoy playing roach styles, go for the 13 minute stephano max out where you bust down the toss third with mass roaches, and if not then go for a muta centric midgame. Just my 2cents, I hate making roaches if I can help it.
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On April 11 2012 08:06 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 07:42 Chinesewonder wrote:
Hey I need help with some specific things in the ZvP match up. I'm mid masters and have trouble with a few things.
1. Stargate play. If I see 2 gas at expo is this a pretty clear sign of SG play? Also I don't know the correct response, I get hydras, but this seems to really strain my economy seeing as I have to get extra gas. Also I take this opportunity to drone up a bit because I know his ground army will be quite weak, is this correct?
2. Engaging certain protoss players. My ideal midgame composition is roaches, hydras, corruptors if there are colossus, and baneling drops. Late game is brood infestor. I'll admit, most protoss I face just sit there while I drop banes on them, however I've faced some which are just impossible to beat it seems. I don't know how to face players who constantly kite thereby nullifying baneling drops, then FF which kills off some of my army and cuts it of from the rest. If my corruptors fly over the FF, they get destroyed by stalker fire. Then they just rinse and repeat. I can't resupply fast enough and it seems like nothing works against these players. I'm thinking of adding in infestors to fungal the army in place while I hold them down, however that is a crap ton of gas. Also masters here, in case you're screening replies. 1. It depends on the timing. If you scout his natural gas around 6:45 and see 2 gases already taken (and being mined, don't get fooled by toss taking 2 fake gases and then 8 gating you), it signifies SUPER tech heavy play like DT or double stargate. The general zealot/voidray timing that most toss still execute is a 2 gas build. Generally you want to make one spore at your third (and in your main if it's possible for him to do a zealot warpin there like antiga) and use 2 queens to slap back the voidrays. Only start making more spores if you see him making lots of phoenixes. And you won't need to make hydras this early at all if he's going single stargate, but you'll need them against 2 stargates. That scouting information is really important, because it'll let you squeeze out some extra drones while you're getting up to hydralisks because you're not worried about some kind of ridiculously fast attack by ground. 2. Roach hydra corruptor is really really outdated, like 9-12 months ago outdated. Banerain also took a big hit since the patch that changed it so that you can't drop on units that are closely packed together anymore. I see losira lose games all the time on stream where he's ridiculously far ahead, chooses to make banerain, and toss just lololololol blink kites all his stalks and kills the overlords. I'd recommend one of two things: if you enjoy playing roach styles, go for the 13 minute stephano max out where you bust down the toss third with mass roaches, and if not then go for a muta centric midgame. Just my 2cents, I hate making roaches if I can help it.
Bane rain seems to work fine for me, I thought it was just a myth that it got nerfed with the whole patch. I just really love roach + banes and corruptors. I'm thinking of just cutting hydras and going roach infestor bane rain + corruptors. I don't like mass roach builds at all. Good FF + 3-4 immortals and you could have an army half the size take it on with good positioning. And as for mutas, it feels like really unstable play. I don't like relying on base trade scenarios, I'd rather just engage. Maybe I need to get with the meta game, but I don't know, I'm just very particular about my unit comps against protoss.
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On April 11 2012 09:30 Chinesewonder wrote:
Bane rain seems to work fine for me, I thought it was just a myth that it got nerfed with the whole patch. I just really love roach + banes and corruptors. I'm thinking of just cutting hydras and going roach infestor bane rain + corruptors. I don't like mass roach builds at all. Good FF + 3-4 immortals and you could have an army half the size take it on with good positioning. And as for mutas, it feels like really unstable play. I don't like relying on base trade scenarios, I'd rather just engage. Maybe I need to get with the meta game, but I don't know, I'm just very particular about my unit comps against protoss.
There was definitely a change, since you can empirically measure it when you try to drop banelings over a clump of units. It doesn't change at all versus probe lines, since probes are spread out enough in the process of mining that the AI won't cancel the drop order, maybe that's what you're thinking of.
For a while I thought the same way as you did with going roach infestor corruptor and just killing his army, but I abandoned it when protosses got decent at forcefielding (masters basically). Plus, the roach infestor style really doesn't allow much room for you to be way better than your opponent, because you're basically doing the same thing as him, massing up a big ass army and attempting to win the one fight at the end of the game. When I was playing that style, ZvP just seemed like a big inverted pendulum to me, as soon as one guy gets just a little bit ahead, PHGGGGGGGGGGGGGHFFFFFFF he just demolishes the other guy's army and immediately wins the game. I feel like styles centred around mutas give you more opportunity to do chipping damage to your opponent and eke out an advantage in the long run by outplaying someone with multipronged attacks, threatening counters, etc etc...
Of course both styles work, at masters level it's more a question of preference than "X is bad Y is good", but if I had to give any advice about going banerain, I'd say to use them against mineral lines in the mid late game. With that style (roach centric) I feel like I can never harass protoss ever, since forcefields basically make roaches null and void. Banerain at least forces him to make cannons and leave defensive units back or risk losing his entire mineral line to 4 banelings.
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If any of you have seen the last of Day9's daily newbie tuesday, which players would you advice me to steal the builds from & analyze them for each of the matchups?
@down : have you even seen this daily?
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On April 11 2012 16:54 zuRbeK wrote:
If any of you have seen the last of Day9's daily newbie tuesday, which players would you advice me to steal the builds from & analyze them for each of the matchups?
To be honest, I don't like stealing builds at all. It's harder to learn how to counter cheese when you just copy instead of learning and understanding the actual game.
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On April 11 2012 17:28 clayn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 16:54 zuRbeK wrote:
If any of you have seen the last of Day9's daily newbie tuesday, which players would you advice me to steal the builds from & analyze them for each of the matchups? To be honest, I don't like stealing builds at all. It's harder to learn how to counter cheese when you just copy instead of learning and understanding the actual game.
I actually couldn't disagree with you more. Good builds are so because they are flexible and can be adapted to what the opponent is doing. Even up to master league I would advise you to copy what top players do, instead of trying to make up your own stuff that frankly isn't that good because you're still learning the game.
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On April 11 2012 17:28 clayn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 16:54 zuRbeK wrote:
If any of you have seen the last of Day9's daily newbie tuesday, which players would you advice me to steal the builds from & analyze them for each of the matchups? To be honest, I don't like stealing builds at all. It's harder to learn how to counter cheese when you just copy instead of learning and understanding the actual game.
At first it is until you understand the build you are doing. This is wrong, stealing builds is fine and of course at first you will lose to stuff since you aren't used to the build yet.
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When i should stop droning and make units when protoss ffe? like what time?
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On April 12 2012 06:12 Corsica wrote:
When i should stop droning and make units when protoss ffe? like what time?
Very much dependent on your build, and what your opponent is going.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038 Has all the drone count/timing information you need when going for 3base no gas.
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EPT
