EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 228
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Southwards
United States49 Posts
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
On April 08 2012 04:07 HyperionDreamer wrote: Note I said "I'll watch this tonight" and did some speculation. Chill out, you could have been like "actually I made a crapton of drones, it wasn't that." And yeah sky mech is pretty annoying, I find whenever I engage it without broods to eat tank shots then I lose all my infestors and thats gg. I'm still pretty upset so sorry for my reaction it's just I always get a ton of theorycrafting tips and some obvious mistakes that people wouldn't think I have thinken of. I mean I'm masters so I think I could realize if I didn't make enough drones or such. Sorry I thought you had watched the replay and I missed the whole "the proabable reason" thing. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On April 08 2012 04:15 Olsson wrote: I'm still pretty upset so sorry for my reaction it's just I always get a ton of theorycrafting tips and some obvious mistakes that people wouldn't think I have thinken of. I mean I'm masters so I think I could realize if I didn't make enough drones or such. Sorry I thought you had watched the replay and I missed the whole "the proabable reason" thing. Its K haha I also sometimes go off at friends who give random advice without actually seeing games. I'll watch it in a few hours when I get back, normally I don't post without SEEING the game but I figured I'd throw something general out there. | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
On April 08 2012 04:11 Southwards wrote: Hi, I'm having a problem against Forge FE on Shattered Temple. Basically, from what I understand the correct response to scouting a FE is to expand your self, because they have invested resources into their expansion. But the third and fourth on Shattered Temple are blocked by rocks, delaying your expansions greatly. Do you have any suggestions of some sort of counter play that can slow down the protoss death ball, or any of their other plans that allows for time to expand without getting out macroed? Or is that map just slightly favored to a Protoss fast expand? Well just like Tal'Darim altar you have your choice of two base all-ins or semi-allins. Options are: Early pools, proxy hatch, two base nydus, two base muta, two base infestor all-in (using IT, cause going macro from this isnt really viable), hydra drop or a roach ling all-in or a baneling bust off one base. On April 08 2012 04:17 HyperionDreamer wrote: Its K haha I also sometimes go off at friends who give random advice without actually seeing games. I'll watch it in a few hours when I get back, normally I don't post without SEEING the game but I figured I'd throw something general out there. Thanks, realy thankful for you taking your time to respond and looking at the replay. | ||
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lwwkicker
United States140 Posts
On April 08 2012 04:11 Southwards wrote: Hi, I'm having a problem against Forge FE on Shattered Temple. Basically, from what I understand the correct response to scouting a FE is to expand your self, because they have invested resources into their expansion. But the third and fourth on Shattered Temple are blocked by rocks, delaying your expansions greatly. Do you have any suggestions of some sort of counter play that can slow down the protoss death ball, or any of their other plans that allows for time to expand without getting out macroed? Or is that map just slightly favored to a Protoss fast expand? You have a lot of options: 1) Firstly, I veto that map for that exact reason. I veto all maps with rocks at the third. Shattered Temple is even worse than TDA in this regard. I think Shattered Temple is one of the worst maps possible for a zerg who wants to macro. 2) You can do various roach/ling/bane all-ins. 3) You can do 2 base mutas and take the expand (and probably one more) while you mutas are on the map. If you do this, make sure to get a macro hatch if u don't double expand behind. 4) You can get a couple extra zerglings and break down the rocks. It's delayed, but it won't cost you the game. You can be, however, a little more vulnerable to properly timed attacks. 5) You can expand to an unsafe third. The more skilled of a player you are, the more realistic this is. If you are below Platinum, you probably won't be able to effectively hold pressure on that third base. | ||
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Corsica
Ukraine1854 Posts
 , and then they might get immortal/stalker/sentry which crushes it can you plz recommend me 1 build for each m/u? and also how do i beat mech? thor/hellion into tank.... | ||
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lwwkicker
United States140 Posts
On April 08 2012 05:48 Corsica wrote: Hello guys, i am high diamond protoss circling around top 15. I recently switched to zerg, (3 days ago) . I am loving new race, i got the mechanics down (injects, and im pretty good at creepspread) , but what i struggle the most is reacting in ZvT and ZvP. in ZvP im doing the stephano's 12 min maxout, but i find if the protoss just turtles i am sitting there like and idiot with 200/200 of roach ling , and then they might get immortal/stalker/sentry which crushes it can you plz recommend me 1 build for each m/u? and also how do i beat mech? thor/hellion into tank.... For Protoss, keep doing the 'Stephano Style' build. Make sure you are getting your ups. Lair with the first 100 gas, then get +1 ranged/ling speed. When Lair pops, make sure to get roach speed and burrow asap. Don't forget +2 if you are going to be applying a lot of roach pressure. If you are up against a very turtle-y Protoss, then expand, maybe even twice. You should be placing an Infestation Pit around the 11 minute mark, 13 is late but acceptable-ish. Get Pathogen Glands and place a spire and make a hive. If you make a spire when you make the hive, then you will be able to make a Greater Spire when Hive pops. Keep poking, absolutely don't let them get a 4th. Many times you can get good trades off or delay/deny the third. If they are super turtle mode, you have to get Broods, hence the importance on getting that infestation pit down soon. You should be able to hold anything off with roach and infestors (only need like 8 infestors). Protoss won't be maxed out until like 17 mins. In between roaches and broods, you probably want to do the classic 30+ spines to defend while you tech up. You can be very vulnerable here. For Terran, (if they are going mech), roaches work well as long as they aren't too tank heavy and as long as you don't charge into tank lines. Hellions are a joke vs roach and thors can get surrounded and focused down. Try to catch the Terran out of position or un-sieged. You should easily be at least one base ahead of Terran in this case. Just watch out for blue flame run-bys or drops. A couple spines or roaches really shut these down. He has to turtle to survive until his army gets big enough. Poke with roaches, deny/delay expansions the best you can. You can maybe even go for a little drop harass. Btw, dropping roaches onto sieged tanks is very good if you can pull it off. You also want to get Broods relatively quickly here. If you catch him off guard, the only AA he will have are thors, and they are very bad against Broods. Basically, if you can't end the game in the mid game (vs. any race), you need to be able to fall back on Brood production. Slowly trade away some units (read: roaches) to free up supply for the Broods. If you are doing another "Stephano Build' (ling/infestor) you probably want to follow up with ultras, but be careful, they can be so bad on so many maps. Ultras are never a good idea vs. mech (ever, imo). Tanks and thors are far too good against them. | ||
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Zoldiark
16 Posts
ZvP i am praticing the 3 base gasless roach opening vs AI to get a feel for it basically so i can do it in my sleep so i can spend my ingame time focusing on other things. 15P15H @4m H 6min 2xgas 7min RW/Evo/2xgas 9min 2xgas/2nd Evo/Macro Hatch i can currently get 200/200 1/1+speed+burrow+(movement researching) roaches with 66-68 drones at 12.53, with 2/2 researching and pit up with pathogen researching. Q1. Ideally what kind of time should i be aiming for to hit 200/200 @12mins or even faster? Q2. Since i am in really low leagues toss generally just sit on 1 base for longer than normal, i really want to get the mechanics of this build down for higher leagues when most toss will FFE but what alterations should i make to the build for all the 1 base shinanigins? basically asking how long if at all should i delay that 4min 3rd if i scout no expansion since i probably only saw pretty standard stuff with my 13 scout and i dont really want to suicide an OL until 6-7mins. ZvT This opening i will be doing once i can get the ZvP build done quick enough that i am happy with it but i think i want to so the double evo opening. not a big muta fan although i recognize their viability on certain maps i just prefer ling/infestor mid game. Q3. There seem to be a ton of variations on this build 3Q/4Q 1S/2S version some pits on 9mins some as late as 11-12. Anyone got a link to a replay that i could use as stock to get my timings down(preferably 1 including nest since most low lvl terrans like to stim push pure marines as they cant handle the mechanics of a R helion opening? ZvZ I know that this is the most fluid match up out there and past the 1st couple of minutes a build order is impossible but, considering i open gas/pool/nest/(expo if i am not under big pressure) Q4. While i really enjoy ZvZ i often find myself at worst coming out even in the early game ling/bling wars but roach, Lair and Lair tech unit timings often elude me. Assuming u are not holding on for dear life against an onslaught what kind of timings should i be looking to hit with Lair most specifially but to a lesser extent the other 2. Q5. Making drones in this match up seems alot trickier than the other 2, ofc if i am not under pressure i can drone away but when i am under moderate pressure are there any guidelines i should use when trying to squeeze out a couple of extra drones? Thanks for the help | ||
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Corsica
Ukraine1854 Posts
On April 08 2012 06:29 lwwkicker wrote: For Protoss, keep doing the 'Stephano Style' build. Make sure you are getting your ups. Lair with the first 100 gas, then get +1 ranged/ling speed. When Lair pops, make sure to get roach speed and burrow asap. Don't forget +2 if you are going to be applying a lot of roach pressure. If you are up against a very turtle-y Protoss, then expand, maybe even twice. You should be placing an Infestation Pit around the 11 minute mark, 13 is late but acceptable-ish. Get Pathogen Glands and place a spire and make a hive. If you make a spire when you make the hive, then you will be able to make a Greater Spire when Hive pops. Keep poking, absolutely don't let them get a 4th. Many times you can get good trades off or delay/deny the third. If they are super turtle mode, you have to get Broods, hence the importance on getting that infestation pit down soon. You should be able to hold anything off with roach and infestors (only need like 8 infestors). Protoss won't be maxed out until like 17 mins. In between roaches and broods, you probably want to do the classic 30+ spines to defend while you tech up. You can be very vulnerable here. For Terran, (if they are going mech), roaches work well as long as they aren't too tank heavy and as long as you don't charge into tank lines. Hellions are a joke vs roach and thors can get surrounded and focused down. Try to catch the Terran out of position or un-sieged. You should easily be at least one base ahead of Terran in this case. Just watch out for blue flame run-bys or drops. A couple spines or roaches really shut these down. He has to turtle to survive until his army gets big enough. Poke with roaches, deny/delay expansions the best you can. You can maybe even go for a little drop harass. Btw, dropping roaches onto sieged tanks is very good if you can pull it off. You also want to get Broods relatively quickly here. If you catch him off guard, the only AA he will have are thors, and they are very bad against Broods. Basically, if you can't end the game in the mid game (vs. any race), you need to be able to fall back on Brood production. Slowly trade away some units (read: roaches) to free up supply for the Broods. If you are doing another "Stephano Build' (ling/infestor) you probably want to follow up with ultras, but be careful, they can be so bad on so many maps. Ultras are never a good idea vs. mech (ever, imo). Tanks and thors are far too good against them. Thanks for your answer! what do you think about 2 base spire into double expand? or is 3 base spire better? i love muta/ling vs P, but i usually win in midgame, what are most common transitions in Late game for muta/ling besides base trade. I play very aggressively so i just add-in roach , and attack with roach/ling in front while killing tech/probes in main. For ZvT i been doing 7RR DRG style, i dont really know how to execute ling/infestor properly so i just, do gassless until 46 supply drop 2 evo and 4 gas, and then get 3rd base lots of lings and +1... | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On April 08 2012 04:20 Olsson wrote: Thanks, realy thankful for you taking your time to respond and looking at the replay. Watching now, reserved will edit 1. I think your opening is hella risky. Just the 2 queens and one spine for hellion defense is sufficient if he makes only 2-4 hellions (this is what happened in the game fortunately), but if he keeps making hellions up to 6 or more then he could run by and do a crapton of damage. And there's no way for you to tell how many hellions he's made since you're relying on slow lings. I also open gasless ZvT but I tend to take my first extractor around 5 minutes and go 3 queens -> 4-5 roaches to shut hellions down cold -> 3rd hatch (in base or at third) -> ling speed -> lair. Just a thought. Case in point - this game you took a third base at 10 minutes in. That's SUPER late unless you're going 2 base muta or something. 2. Nice creep spread. 3. The 8-9 minute mark is really important - I suggest that be when you send your first overlord in to scout his base - you'll see the extra barracks for standard marine/tank or the extra factories for mech. 4. Your third this game was so late that terran was actually mining his fifth and sixth gases before you. Plus he had the balls to make that third an orbital and not a planetary. If you had roaches with speed up, you could have just gone and killed him. Some drops would have done really really well too, since he didn't build a single turret in his main so far (14 minutes). 5. He's pushing at 16 minutes and he's about 15 food ahead of you. You did a really good job of spending the money that you had, but since your 5th/6th gases are so late you only have infestor/ling at this point and you're making 2 ultras. Lings are next to useless against mech unless you catch him unsieged or have amazing surrounds. He backs away but I think he could have just killed you off at that point. 6. Why ultras and not broods? Were you thinking fungals plus ultra surround? (not a troll question, seriously asking) 7. Then you attacked into him at 18:30 and lost your entire army, this was basically GG right here since you re maxed on ultras and lings, which is exactly the army you just lost, plus all your infestors. You can't just attack move into the sieged army like that, to re distribute your food into higher tech units it's better to do it in small chunks. Do drops, ling runbys to pull his army out of position and then maybe fungal some hellions, etc etc.... 8. You spent a huge amount of your bank on these 130 lings that you didn't really do much with. I would rather see you make 15-20 spines and re-make some of the drones, since those spines can be really useful dfending against hellions/drops, where the lings basically just melt to his army. 9. The banshees were really smart by him I think - you had just lost all of your infestor and there were no signs of corruptor/brood anywhere. Had you not lost all your infestors the banshees would have been less useful because of fungal/np. 10. The ling/ultra runby was OK, you killed a lot of workers but then lost 4 ultras mis-rallying. Plus he came back and crushed all the units, and now you literally have nothing except 4 ultras and 13 corruptors, with no infestors and barely enough money to make them into broods. 11. You made a bunch of broods but now your bank is gone, and the key thing is that you have no infestors. They are the backbone of the hive tech army in my opinion, because they can fungal vikings/ravens and even cast NP on a raven if he gets too close, giving YOU a point defense drone instead of him. You attack into him, and break up against him like water on rocks. He was really dumb and kept his tanks sieged way too long, so he lost a whole crapton of tanks that he didn't need to lose. You might have even won that if you had infestors. The best way that I find to engage terran armies that have tanks and vikings in them is to move the broods forwards so they fire at the T army, while keeping the infestors back for now (since tanks outrange broods you have to get broodlings on the ground before infestors can move forwards). If he unsieges, then you can move all your ground units plus infestors in for the kill since he doesn't have any long range damage to prevent you from getting up close. If he stays sieged, he'll take a crapload of friendly fire, likely losing tanks or marines, and then he'll move vikings up to shoo your broods away. Then, since his tanks are on CD, you can move your infestors forwards to fungal vikings and engage in the air battle with your corruptor. Likely you'll just attack with your whole army at this time since his tanks can't shoot for a small period of time (this is critical to time, only attack right as his cooldown has begun since it gives you max time to get up close). 12. He pushes and wins, cause you have a bit of bank but no high tech units. tldr; Maybe give your opening some more thought, and when you want to trade units away to make higher tech ones, do it in small chunks against mech armies because they are so cost efficient. Against bio it's easy to be like "ok all my lings died its ok remax on 15 broods and the rest lings npnp" since fungal growth is amazingly good against marines, but mech isn't like that because his army beats yours in a straight up fight until you get up to a pure hive tech composition. Do some drops with cracklings to kill his production, while spending your mineral bank on spines and your gas bank on infestor/corruptor/brood. | ||
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lwwkicker
United States140 Posts
On April 08 2012 06:53 Zoldiark wrote: I played toss since i bought the game, i was zerg for my intial 20 or so games but the learning curve in zerg is alot higher than the other 2 races. I really like the game but quite frankly i find toss quite boring so i am taking the time to really working on my zerg mechanics, the feel for when i need to drone/make units will come from laddering but before i do alot of laddering i want to get my mechanics into vaguely working order. ZvP i am praticing the 3 base gasless roach opening vs AI to get a feel for it basically so i can do it in my sleep so i can spend my ingame time focusing on other things. 15P15H @4m H 6min 2xgas 7min RW/Evo/2xgas 9min 2xgas/2nd Evo/Macro Hatch i can currently get 200/200 1/1+speed+burrow+(movement researching) roaches with 66-68 drones at 12.53, with 2/2 researching and pit up with pathogen researching. Q1. Ideally what kind of time should i be aiming for to hit 200/200 @12mins or even faster? Q2. Since i am in really low leagues toss generally just sit on 1 base for longer than normal, i really want to get the mechanics of this build down for higher leagues when most toss will FFE but what alterations should i make to the build for all the 1 base shinanigins? basically asking how long if at all should i delay that 4min 3rd if i scout no expansion since i probably only saw pretty standard stuff with my 13 scout and i dont really want to suicide an OL until 6-7mins. ZvT This opening i will be doing once i can get the ZvP build done quick enough that i am happy with it but i think i want to so the double evo opening. not a big muta fan although i recognize their viability on certain maps i just prefer ling/infestor mid game. Q3. There seem to be a ton of variations on this build 3Q/4Q 1S/2S version some pits on 9mins some as late as 11-12. Anyone got a link to a replay that i could use as stock to get my timings down(preferably 1 including nest since most low lvl terrans like to stim push pure marines as they cant handle the mechanics of a R helion opening? ZvZ I know that this is the most fluid match up out there and past the 1st couple of minutes a build order is impossible but, considering i open gas/pool/nest/(expo if i am not under big pressure) Q4. While i really enjoy ZvZ i often find myself at worst coming out even in the early game ling/bling wars but roach, Lair and Lair tech unit timings often elude me. Assuming u are not holding on for dear life against an onslaught what kind of timings should i be looking to hit with Lair most specifially but to a lesser extent the other 2. Q5. Making drones in this match up seems alot trickier than the other 2, ofc if i am not under pressure i can drone away but when i am under moderate pressure are there any guidelines i should use when trying to squeeze out a couple of extra drones? Thanks for the help Q1. You are doing quite well. You seem to have everything needed at a really good time. The only thing I might suggest is holding off on your 6th geyser unless you are going for early infests, nydus play, planning a switch to mutas, or trying to rush to T3. If you are staying on roaches for a bit, you don't need the 6th gas. If you are maxed at 13 minutes, your macro is at least mid/high Plat level (I have no idea what rank you actually are). Q2. The build is designed to combat the FFE. If they aren't expanding, I would suggest staying on two bases. It's excessive (and risky) to be 2 bases ahead so early on. I would just recommend getting your third as soon as they take their natural, more or less (assuming you have some amount of army to hold off aggression). Q3. Might be able to find a replay later, but IMO you never want to tech to mutas without the safety of a baneling nest. It's relatively suicidal. Banes are the unit that let you drone/expand before 9-10 minutes. Try having one extra queen for creep. Stay away from 2 spire builds for now (if that is what '2S' means?). And don't neglect to at least get +1 melee (and maybe +1 armor) (helps sooo much against rine/tank pushes). Q4. If you are ahead, tech and/or expand. Pretty simple. If you feel safe and you are decently saturated on two bases, take a 3rd if you can get away with it. Otherwise, get Lair. I play ZvZ reactively (I'm more passive / macro oriented), so I don't rush for Lair. I usually get Lair between 8 and 9 minutes. Sometimes you get Lair at 16 minutes because the ling/bling insanity just doesn't stop. You don't always need roach, at least not early on. If you are going mutas, putting down a warren when you are harassing with mutas is never a bad idea (if you want/need to tech switch). (Also, if you are early(ish) expanding, I would hold off on the bane nest until after the expo is down, unless you find yourself getting all-ined a ton. You can defend early on with speedlings, queens, and maybe a spine or two. Get the baneling nest a touch later when your eco and infrastructure are more setup - around 20-24 supply). Q5. Don't underestimate the power of sim-city and static defense when trying to squeeze in more drones/tech. I notice the 'defender's advantage' in this MU more than any other. You want more sim-city vs. ling/bling, and more static vs. roach. An extra queen or two is downright amazing when trying to hold off a roach push. Transfuse is awesome, and you can pick of weak roaches with focus fire from the queen(s). If you are under moderate pressure / poking, try to get a scout off on his worker count if you can (sneak by lings, suicide an ovie, etc). Just make sure you aren't way ahead of him on worker count. More often than not, this means that they are preparing for some aggression (unless they are really bad), and you will die if you over-droned. | ||
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Zoldiark
16 Posts
On April 08 2012 07:34 lwwkicker wrote: Q3. Might be able to find a replay later, but IMO you never want to tech to mutas without the safety of a baneling nest. It's relatively suicidal. Banes are the unit that let you drone/expand before 9-10 minutes. Try having one extra queen for creep. Stay away from 2 spire builds for now (if that is what '2S' means?). And don't neglect to at least get +1 melee (and maybe +1 armor) (helps sooo much against rine/tank pushes). 2S actually meant 2 spinessince i was talking about openings, sorry for the confusion. i try to avoid using mutas as much as possible, they require alot of micro to be cost effective so i feel that my time is better spent macroing since i dont have huge amounts of APM to spare. ideally i am looking to do a double evo opening into ling/bling/infestor mid game so if you could find or suggest a pro replay that would suit that would be awesome. Thanks for the quick reply | ||
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Jamerrz
United Kingdom21 Posts
Early game I sometimes lose my queen on my natural to a 2-rax vs Terran or a ling run-by in ZvZ. Late game I sometimes lose queens to terran drops or warp-ins from a warp prism. I was just wondering how you higher level Zergs react. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On April 08 2012 07:56 Jamerrz wrote: I have a quick question. How should I react in general when my Queens get sniped in both the early game and late game? I find my minerals shooting up when I can't inject. Early game I sometimes lose my queen on my natural to a 2-rax vs Terran or a ling run-by in ZvZ. Late game I sometimes lose queens to terran drops or warp-ins from a warp prism. I was just wondering how you higher level Zergs react. Just make the queens again, and you might be able to squeeze a macro hatch in.  | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
Thanks alot! Though I would'nt have gotten sufficient broodlords in time to survive the push if he went on past denying my fifth base. I went ling ultra because I max faster than with BLs. He already had like two ravens out and some vikings when I was maxed on ultras, so I dont know if my broodlords would've done better against raven viking thor splash. | ||
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lwwkicker
United States140 Posts
On April 08 2012 07:26 Corsica wrote: Thanks for your answer! what do you think about 2 base spire into double expand? or is 3 base spire better? i love muta/ling vs P, but i usually win in midgame, what are most common transitions in Late game for muta/ling besides base trade. I play very aggressively so i just add-in roach , and attack with roach/ling in front while killing tech/probes in main. For ZvT i been doing 7RR DRG style, i dont really know how to execute ling/infestor properly so i just, do gassless until 46 supply drop 2 evo and 4 gas, and then get 3rd base lots of lings and +1... I view 2-base muta and 3-base muta as very different builds. Two-base is more proactive, whereas three-base is more reactive. I will explain. Two-Base Mutas: The idea behind 2-base muta is that the mutas get out before Protoss can handle them effectively. You take map control, almost regardless. They basically have to mass pure stalker and cannons to counter it early on, and if they move out with the stalkers, you can crush them with mutas and a good surround of lings (they won't have enough zealots or sentries to stop the lings from doing "terrible terrible damage"). They have to stay in their base, or they will take way too many losses. You expand behind this, sometimes a lot. With this build, you can usually just 'rush' for mutas and defend with only spines and lings (unless they do heavy 1-2 base pressure, but you have to scout that). Three-Base Mutas: Three-base mutas come out later, and if Protoss already has a good solution to this (cannons, stalkers, and sentires), then it isn't as effective. If you 3-base mutas, you are generally do it in response to the Protoss. You do this build if you see they don't have enough stalkers, they are going double robo, they are going heavy void (harass), or you managed to get a large early game advantage, etc. With this build, you usually (almost always) have to have some backup or a contingency plan (read: roaches) to live through the early-midgame. You can be very vulnerable to 2-base heavy pressure. Late-game Transition: With mutas, I usually get a large mid-game advantage or I lose, lol (I need to work on that, for sure). You can transition into almost anything actually. You will have gotten 1-2 upgrades on your lings and 1-2 on your mutas by this time, meaning ultras OR broods are effective. Build whatever hurts them more. Ultras get the same ups as lings, broods get air upgrades, and the broodlings get the ground ups. Ultras are a faster transition because you don't have to effectively make two rounds of units (corrupters and THEN broods). It just depends on the state of the game. Sometimes you can take mutas into the late game if you are really good at suffocating them. Just depends. If you see they are getting more effective at holding off muta harass (and if they have a third or if it is 16+ minutes into the game) then you need to switch away from mutas (usually with some urgency). If you can pull it off, I would recommend getting Broodlord/ling, maybe with some infestor backup (ultras are just soo bad). If you stay on Broods for a while, make sure to make an ultra cavern just so you can (if you need/want to) tech switch rapidly. Massive tech switches can really throw players off, but don't switch for no reason if your current setup is working well. Other Stuff: I would avoid doing 7RR much more. It's good in lower leagues, but once you start getting higher up (and your opponent gets better at scouting), then it becomes a relatively terrible build. If Terran holds it off (remotely well), you are disgustingly behind. All they need is a bunker and/or a raud or two. Roach/ling/infestor or roach/ling/bane are both good vs. Terran, as long as you avoid getting slaughtered by tanks and can get a decent surround/concave, and you will need to be careful of drops. Whenever you don't have mutas, be extra careful of drops. If you do either of those builds, double upgrade melee and carapace. Ignored ranged ups for roaches, they are 100% useless in the late game, whereas melee is THE upgrade to have late-game. | ||
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lwwkicker
United States140 Posts
On April 08 2012 07:56 Jamerrz wrote: I have a quick question. How should I react in general when my Queens get sniped in both the early game and late game? I find my minerals shooting up when I can't inject. Early game I sometimes lose my queen on my natural to a 2-rax vs Terran or a ling run-by in ZvZ. Late game I sometimes lose queens to terran drops or warp-ins from a warp prism. I was just wondering how you higher level Zergs react. Honestly, the best solution is to try to save your queens the best you can. I also usually have one additional queen (for creep/transfuse), so worst case scenario, I will only have one queen. If your queens die late game, it shouldn't be too big of a deal. Usually you will have enough stockpiled larvae to easily last you until you remake queens. It not, your injects need work. Late game, you will also want to have 2+ macro hatches. The natural spawn rate of larvae on 5+ hatches should also tide you over until your queens spawn again. | ||
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lwwkicker
United States140 Posts
On April 08 2012 07:45 Zoldiark wrote: 2S actually meant 2 spinessince i was talking about openings, sorry for the confusion. i try to avoid using mutas as much as possible, they require alot of micro to be cost effective so i feel that my time is better spent macroing since i dont have huge amounts of APM to spare. ideally i am looking to do a double evo opening into ling/bling/infestor mid game so if you could find or suggest a pro replay that would suit that would be awesome. Thanks for the quick reply Watch Day[9] Daily #367 - Nestea's ZvT (more than once). It helped me a ton, and is the main reason I like(d) Nestea so much. Might not be exactly what you want, but it is nevertheless and good early-game foundation for ZvT. | ||
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MrTortoise
1388 Posts
On April 08 2012 04:44 lwwkicker wrote: You have a lot of options: 1) Firstly, I veto that map for that exact reason. I veto all maps with rocks at the third. Shattered Temple is even worse than TDA in this regard. I think Shattered Temple is one of the worst maps possible for a zerg who wants to macro. 2) You can do various roach/ling/bane all-ins. 3) You can do 2 base mutas and take the expand (and probably one more) while you mutas are on the map. If you do this, make sure to get a macro hatch if u don't double expand behind. 4) You can get a couple extra zerglings and break down the rocks. It's delayed, but it won't cost you the game. You can be, however, a little more vulnerable to properly timed attacks. 5) You can expand to an unsafe third. The more skilled of a player you are, the more realistic this is. If you are below Platinum, you probably won't be able to effectively hold pressure on that third base. I tend to find that most players dont rescout the 3rd you just took in gold and below tbh  (thinking shattered temple)Someone mentioned 7rr, tbh lower leagues are plenty used to that now (Just started playing again and trying for once - I am finding that doesn't work too well anymore - sure you can do it and force it but seems like much harder work to 6 months ago due to siege tanks resulting from no longer spamming loads of rax). I think one of the reasons you see a lot of 1 basing play is due to fear of stuff like that and being unable to hold it with thinner builds. Easier to exploit that by expanding and going ling bling if you think you need to pressure prior to teching. That sounds dogmatic but is more questioning or at least invitation for a smack down | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On April 08 2012 08:09 Olsson wrote: Hyperion: Thanks alot! Though I would'nt have gotten sufficient broodlords in time to survive the push if he went on past denying my fifth base. I went ling ultra because I max faster than with BLs. He already had like two ravens out and some vikings when I was maxed on ultras, so I dont know if my broodlords would've done better against raven viking thor splash. It would have been really close, the timing as to whether you could have gotten broods to survive the push. If you make the spire the same time as the hive, then you can start GS immediately upon it finishing, which is 100 seconds compared to 65 of an ultra den plus 55 seconds for the ultras (110 until they get their armor upgrade). Since you had the armor upgrade for ultras when you attacked his army, I think you could have definitely had broods by that time. Regardless however of your tech choice, the big thing is trading units away slowly when you want to remax on hive tech since it takes so long to get rolling. Ling ultra drops would have been pretty good if you have good multitask. | ||
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