Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions.
On April 05 2012 07:35 hubschrauber wrote: Hi guys, I'm a top 8 gold level player and I've been practicing ZvP with my platinum level buddy. I do the opening taught in Apollo's zerg tutorials: 14 gas, 14 pool, queen, ling-speed and 2 sets of lings for scouting. Then expand at 20.
He has been pylon-blocking my expansion which I normally just clear with my lings. Now he started dropping a cannon at my natural along with the pylon when going FFE. What is the best response to this? If I see it in time, I pull 4 drones to kill off the cannon. Is there a better response?
If I don't see it in time, what options do I have? I'd actually like to get a fast 3rd vs. FFE. Is that still possible?
Thanks for your help.
For starters, I would definitely recommend going 14or15 pool, then trying to expand at any time from 15-20 supply (the earlier the better). You don't need gas super early, especially before you expand.
That being said, regardless of what build you go, you have to stop that cannon from completing. Make sure you send the first overlord you make to your natural to spot if this happens. If you don't have lings when the cannon is placed, then send 4-5 or so drones down to kill it. Get the drones back to mining asap if he cancels. If he instantly replaces it, you should definitely have lings coming by this time.
If the cannon completes, you are in very bad shape (basically screwed), and you have two options now. 1 Base all-in (very bad idea), or trying to sneak a drone out and expanding somewhere else (bad idea). Neither are great, and if you hatch somewhere else, its going to be very very vulnerable. There is no reason/excuse for not seeing it in time; you just have to put your first overlord at your natural (it's a good habit to get into period).
On April 05 2012 07:46 Crevasse wrote: Hi mid-high master here, I just want to know how to deal with turtle mech terran who goes for double armory. I usually roach if I see mech and try to tech to brood lor, but 2/2 3/3 thors just rape my brood. It just takes so much upgrades to match the double armory. If I go for too many upgrades then I have to delay my tech. If he attacks before then tech kicks in them I am dead.
Pls help,
TY
I would like to help, but I need a replay or more info. When are they going double armory? What is their mech makeup? Thor heavy? Tank heavy? Are they on 2 or 3 base? What is your mid-game tech/unit composition like in this situation? etc etc etc.
Just played against a protoss who did the mass void ray/colossus BS from 6 months ago. I hate playing against toss at my level because multitasking's absolutely irrelevant, they just sit there and get a deathball, and a lot of them simply mass cannons so they don't have to even look back at their base if I'm trying to do runbys and drops.
I scouted the double stargate right before any voidrays showed up, his voids did absolutely zero damage, and he immediately goes double robo before he makes a third while still managing to pump voids. I had no idea toss could afford this much stuff.
Is it just a waste of time going corruptors against this bs or should i just go muta?
Just played against a protoss who did the mass void ray/colossus BS from 6 months ago. I hate playing against toss at my level because multitasking's absolutely irrelevant, they just sit there and get a deathball, and a lot of them simply mass cannons so they don't have to even look back at their base if I'm trying to do runbys and drops.
I scouted the double stargate right before any voidrays showed up, his voids did absolutely zero damage, and he immediately goes double robo before he makes a third while still managing to pump voids. I had no idea toss could afford this much stuff.
Is it just a waste of time going corruptors against this bs or should i just go muta?
First of all, I can't tell you how glad I am that you included a replay .
Ok, so compliments first, then criticism. I am glad that you are trying the 3 hatch before gas build against FFE Protoss. You also had pretty good job at creep spread throughout the game. Furthermore, good job expanding during the late game. Keep up that good work.
Now, the other stuff, haha. First, I would like to comment on your opening build before I go into the mid/late game. Since you are doing 3 hatch before gas, you want to get double gas around 44 supply. You got gas a bit too early (around 33 I think), and that cut into your drone count (much, much more than you would think). Secondly, I would recommend double evo instead of making a macro hatch. IMO, if you have enough money to make a macro hatch when you did, it means you didn't drone hard enough (or make double evos). The benchmark time is 8:00. You want to have at least 60 supply by this time. I think you had 54, or around there. If you do well, you can easily have 70 at this point (3 queens, some lings, mostly drones). At 9:00 in the game, I saw you only had 49 workers. At this point in time, especially if you weren't pressured hard (which you weren't), then you need to have at least 60 drones. Optimal/ideal count is 70-75 on three bases. Having a low drone count in the late-early or early-mid game is the root of many problems (including yours, imo).
The second 'big mistake' you made was going hydras. Hydras are good at countering air harass, but so are queens and spores, and they don't cost gas. Hydras are good at defending because you are on creep, but they are slow as hell off creep, AND they get absolutely OWNED by colossus.
Now, let me explain myself for this next section. I love mutas. It's literally the reason why I chose Zerg when I first started playing. That being said, I would indeed recommend going mutas vs. what he had. Mutas destroy voids. Many, many lower level players think that the opposite is true. I can't tell you how many times I owned mass voids with mutas in lower (gold-ish) leagues. At 14:00 he had precisely zero stalkers and 5 sentries. I think he also had 6 voids and a few colossus. Needless to say, his anti-air was lacking. If he has a lot of cannons, do your best to keep you mutas active, and always look for the free kills you can get. Pylons, lone units, expansions, pick off whatever you can and get out fast.
Lastly, you massed a TON of lings late-game. They are Zerg's go-to unit when you are in a crisis situation (or as a mineral/larva dump). Like, "Oh, shit, he's in my base, what can I dooooo". Considering his colossus count, and the fact that he had a decent amount of sentries on the field, zerlings were very, very useless. Maybe have like 20 or so to backstab if he moves out or is out of position, but massing lings is definitely a huge waste of resources at this point in the game.
So, to sum it all up:
1) If you are going 3 hatch before gas, try to drone harder and gas a little bit later. Risk losing in the early game because you had too many drones rather than losing in the mid/late game because your drone count was bad earlier.
2) Avoid Hydras in most situations. If you feel the need to go hydra, try to think of what other unit(s) you could use to solve your 'problem'.
3) Mutas are exceptionally good against a Protoss massing units out of a Robo (considering none of them hit air).'
4) Avoid dumping resources/larva into useless units in the late-game (lings - roaches after a certain point - even mutas after a certain point).
On April 04 2012 20:57 Xorphene wrote: Low-masters here.
I'm getting pummelled in games vs all three races lately and i'm pretty sure it's down to my tech timings. I'll sit on low tech for far too long in a game.
What are the standard/suggested timing to tech lair and hive?
vs T, i'm opening 14h 16p 21g, pulling two drones off at 100>ling speed, next 100 gas going lair. Regardless of choosing infestor/muta play I sit on lair for far too long and hive is always an afterthought - when I do decide to tech it costs me games as I needed broods/ultras way earlier.
vs P, opening 3 hatch vs FFE - stephano style 2 gas at 6 mins, RW/Evo at 7 mins etc. Obviously i'm factoring lair upgrade with first 100 gas, but again, if he survives - i'm not an all-in kind of player, sure i'll commit if I see weakness but I prefer to see that as game sense instead of all-in, but my transitions again are weak. I'll generally push towards infestor afterwards but then stay on lair tech. In a matchup where you need especially broods to counter lategame P army, you can imagine what happens.
vs Z, i'm totally lost. I'm losing 80% of ZvZ because i'm being non-committal and have no confidence in my ability to win the matchup. I've switched between 14/14 safe/aggressive with banes, 15h w/ defenseive banes, 14p/16h with spines and NOTHING is working. When things were working however, it was any of the above builds into roach hydra/infestor or ling/muta.
So basically, my mid-game timing are totally screwed. Any advice on supply timings in the early-mid games for techs and markers/general timers for hive tech in all three matchups would be greatly appreciated. It's a good time for me to experiment and practice this week!
I'll give my take on it, since I don't think really agree with what the guy who responded said, or rather, I feel like maybe he is lacking purpose? I guess that sounds mean... anything, I'll address your post, and the point of whatever you are doing in a game, is for a purpose. I don't think he really outlined that, but rather gave thoughts on certain lair tech compositions as like on paper.
ZvT: Your BO sounds fine, pretty much what I do (i think I get gas a little later, and I make macro hatch ~45 (or 3rd if terran has no hellions or loses them, and then take all 4 gas, but same idea).
So you get mutas right. The point of the mutas is to have absolute map control. Assuming you take your third reasonably and drone and macro properly, as long as you don't lose your mutas, you will win any fight by the time it arrives near your bases until T is like 3+ bases and 170+ supply 3/3 and extremely strong (read: super late game, basically).
This is what happens: You have like 15 mutas, and the flock continues to grow. If Terran ever, ever pushes out, you can run your lings in and do a shitton of damage and then run back to defend your base, or win a base trade scenario (obviously you should have your ling army like hidden near his base, to do this). Also, if you are active with your mutas, you really, really delay just everything from T - their expos, their macro, their additional raxes, their reactors, their tech, and essentially, their push. You can do things like snipe siege tanks or medivacs to force T to wait for more tanks before he can push out, hit SCVs to hurt his production, be really active and force lots of turrets, snipe reactors/tech labs to halt production as he has to remake these things, et cetera. Obviously, the more active you are, the better, but as the lower levels of play, this isn't even all that necessary, just having mutas will force T to make a bunch of turrets, which mean later rax, which means later army, later push.
Also, if T gets a fast third, you can be really aggressive with ling/bane/muta.
But anyways, the key is that you *never* lose too many mutas. Don't get stars in your eyes going for SCVs and lose 5+ to turrets and marines. Don't fly over marines. Be really, careful. As long as you don't lose too many mutas, anytime T pushes out, you should own his push with decent micro or catching him on creep or in vulnerable spots (at lower levels, shouldn't be hard). The muta flock just adds too much dps, and snipes tanks easily.
So, T can't really push because of counterattacks or because you always cut reinforcements off with mutas and then leave his army stranded and smaller than yoru constantly growing army and then win the fight.
As in every match-up, the point of mutas is to keep the opponent in his base for so long, that when he finally can push (when he's made a million static D to avoid losing base trade, or made an extremely strong army), you will have broodlord/infestor. Ideally, in ZvT, you don't really want to go above 30 mutas, maybe even 25 as the limit point. If you lose too many mutas, you have to replace lost mutas, which really delays your bl/infestor tech, as well as weaken your ability to crush pushes or keep T in his base and make lots of static D.
Every ZvT I lose, it's because I stupidly fly mutas over marines (yea I'm bad and I know it, a big problem I have is not paying attention I guess). I find that when going mutas in ZvT, as long as you keep your mutas fairly healthy and alive, you will win, and if you lose your mutas, you will just lose. Medivacs will own you. Siege tanks will own you. Keep mutas alive, makes army stronger, keeps T in base longer, allows you to tech faster.
Like I said - point of mutas in every match-up, keep opponent in base lest he lost army fight OR base trade (T+Zroachhydra/P+Zroachqueen respectively), while you get to tech up. The more mutas you lose, the more you need to replace or the opponent can safely move out before you have a good muta army or bl/ifnestor and slower you can tech up.
So - when to go hive in ZvT? You want to go hive if: 1. You crush a later mid-game big push 2. You have map control with a big flock of mutas, but Terran is starting to defend well. At this point, more mutas won't help, you have enough to deal with a fight, but unless you get hive you are slowly getting weaker and your ability to counterattack and force T in base diminishes.
I generally find you want it around 20+ mutas and 4+ bases, if you look at it that way. You should be looking at it like "Can I keep T base long enough for me to get BL/infestor? Do i have map control?"
vs P, opening 3 hatch vs FFE - stephano style 2 gas at 6 mins, RW/Evo at 7 mins etc. Obviously i'm factoring lair upgrade with first 100 gas, but again, if he survives - i'm not an all-in kind of player, sure i'll commit if I see weakness but I prefer to see that as game sense instead of all-in, but my transitions again are weak. I'll generally push towards infestor afterwards but then stay on lair tech. In a matchup where you need especially broods to counter lategame P army, you can imagine what happens.
If you watch day9 daily #429, 'stephano style' is actually making very few roaches, focusing mostly on lings, 100+ drones, lots of expos taken haphazardly, and masssss spines, like 40+ spines with infestors. You get spire if toss gets colossi or when you start hive, (against colossi, he will move them forward to snipe spines, then you FG+snipe with corruptors, he loses all colossi easily to 14 corruptors).
There are sort of 3 ways to play ZvP right now: 1. Roaches (you seem to be playing this way, stephano doesn't, at least not recently). It can be roach/hydra, pure roach, speed roach+speedling, roach/corruptor, roach/infestor, whatever. You are being aggressive, denying the third, and just trading over and over so toss can't push out, you get a huge econ behind your map control so even if you lose your entire army, toss loses his, and he can't remake his army as quickly and you tech to broodlords safely. This style is bad on maps where Toss can take an easy third, or if toss opens aggressively and gains map control against you, and then takes a third.
Anyways, what you are doing with this style, is keeping map control and trading armies. Expand a lot, deny expos, trade a lot. You will trade with him when you are maxed out, and if your attack goes well, behind it, you can transition into 10+ infestors, trade again, and then during that 2nd infestor attack, get broodlord tech going. That's all. The idea here is that when being aggressive like this, you NEED to trade armies in the mid+ game or else Toss will push before you get broodlords out, and kill you (see DRG vs Genius g1 daybreak GSL finals, where genius owns DRG when he tries to go broodlords without trading first, or getting 40+ spines or mutas like in strats I outline below).
2. Infestors (stephano style infestors, that is). You make very few roaches, like only 20 (more if toss goes for gateway pressure early on on 2 base though), and mostly lings afterwards. You quickly take fourth, and drone up quickly to 100+ drones. Yes, 100+. What you are doing, is using mass spines to protect yourself from gateway based pushes. Then, toss gets some tech, like maybe archons, immortals, mass sentry, voids, blink, whatever, and you get infestor+spine. In this case, if he pushes, your 20+ spines + FG decimate him, and he has to pull back. You literally need to stay above 100 drones the whole time, and constantly making more spines, and constantly remaking drones. You keep adding 10 spines, 10 spines, 10 spines, and drones drones drones, and you just have soo many spines.
Eventually toss will need colossi to break though. You should have gotten spire for this. You are making 10+ corruptors anyways for your fast hive broodlords (that's where your gas is going, not roaches, but infestors, then fast hive). He either takes a ton of damage a-moving into spines+fg, or he most often, moves his colossi forward to snipe spines. You then FG the colossi, and snipe them with the corruptors (30 roaches will own 6 colossi that are fg'd and in the front of the army).
I strongly recommend watching day9 daily #429 in regards to this style.
3. Mutas. While stephano style mass spine/infestor is bad on maps with multiple, primary attack routes (like korhal) and good with maps with little air space (easier to defend harassment), mutas are the opposite in being good on maps with multiple counterattack routes and bad with maps with no airspace. the idea here, like ZvT, is using the mutas to force P to stay in his base and defend defend defend his third. Any time he moves out, your ling/muta army owns the base trade scenario.
Once Toss starts to really defend himself and secure his third, like really start to stabilize, you need to start moving toward BL/Infestor. As long as you don't lose too many mutas, you can always threaten the win in a base trade, so P stays in his base long enough for you to get BL/Infestor. If you stay on muta too long, toss will win, even if he is only ever on 1 mining base the whole time, because he will never lose army units after HT and archons come out, and eventually just have this insane mothership/purearchon/stalker deathball that will own any bl/infestor army. You need to get bl when you have that 'oh shit, toss is getting bigger and bigger" moment.
vs Z, i'm totally lost. I'm losing 80% of ZvZ because i'm being non-committal and have no confidence in my ability to win the matchup. I've switched between 14/14 safe/aggressive with banes, 15h w/ defenseive banes, 14p/16h with spines and NOTHING is working. When things were working however, it was any of the above builds into roach hydra/infestor or ling/muta.
I feel like all of the match-ups, this one takes the most skill. It's really being really good at knowing when you can drone, and map control.
If 14/14 is working for you, go for it. Personally, I prefer 14hatch/15pool/15gas (or even 17 gas), double queen and spine, speed, then bane nest afterwards, then make 4 banes. With this defense (don't inject ever until you get banes out), you should hold any 1 base all-in play, and you can drone pretty hard once banes are out or the opponent expands (since you'll have speed soon enough). I actually 10 drone scout on 2 player maps (depending on map size, i send immediately at 10 or second overlord pops; on 4 player maps 13 drone scout is fine, any early pool is hard for opponent because he doesnt know your spawn anyways).
However, you seem to understand midgame, just early game is a problem?
Okay, so we focus on what you like to do. So, with 14/14, it's the 'safest' build, you dont need to drone scout (or you can, whatever), just overlord scout. If opponent opens speedlings too, just get hatch then bane nest (you will have to make lings to defend pressure until bane nest comes though, so don't drone too hard, and keep an eye on that overlord over his nat seeing if he expanded, or he didn't, if he didn't, make lots of lings). 1 drone on gas after speed is 'safe'. Don't drone hard until bane nest pops, basically. Then, with 4 banes, you can drone pretty hard and just with constant pokes at the front of his base with speedlings, you'll see if he's going to push. You'll want to know ~40-50 supply if he's going lair, third, or mass roach/ling though (more than 2 gas taken, third obviously taken, super low drone count, respectively). It's imperative you keep an overlord by the opponent's natural to watch his droning. Soooo important.
One problem I find myself having, especially ZvP is that despite outmacroing, constantly injecting, not supply blocking, and researching upgrades and constantly producing, the zerg army is never as strong and my micro is not good enough to be able to exploit infestors against a death ball for example. Because of my economy, I can usually just throw supply capped army after supply capped army at the other guy until eventually they run dry, but there are moments after a conflict where they have a significant amount of army left and my reinforcements are still hatching. I'm not sure if I should be harassing more, countering better, or what.
On April 05 2012 13:17 gp0942 wrote: One problem I find myself having, especially ZvP is that despite outmacroing, constantly injecting, not supply blocking, and researching upgrades and constantly producing, the zerg army is never as strong and my micro is not good enough to be able to exploit infestors against a death ball for example. Because of my economy, I can usually just throw supply capped army after supply capped army at the other guy until eventually they run dry, but there are moments after a conflict where they have a significant amount of army left and my reinforcements are still hatching. I'm not sure if I should be harassing more, countering better, or what.
If you are going 3 hatch before gas, you should never let it get to a 'deathball' state in the game, or at least you should do your best to avoid it (imo). Let me, at this point, tell you how infinitely helpful replays are. For the most part, you should be able to mass roach (infestors are not needed unless they are at blink or 3 base, imo). What happened during these 'moments after a conflict'? Did you get owned because of Immortals or FF or mass cannons or what? Right when your 3 bases are kicking into full swing (more or less when Lair finishes), you should be upgrading roaches. Roach speed, +1 attack, +1 armor, maybe burrow, etc. Don't tech too much all at once. After roach speed kicks in, you can literally just kill any toss that doesn't have the right composition. If they tech too much (fast colossus), they are probably dead. If they expand greedily, they are almost certainly dead. If they don't have enough sentries or immortals, they are at least in bad shape. If their macro / upgrades / control isn't the best, you are in good shape.
Secondly, if you are ever in an unfavorable engage, make sure to RUN away until your reinforcements arrive. The more Protoss is able to cost-effectively trade with you, the worse shape you are in. Protoss units can be incredibly cost effective, but you can reinforce faster than any other race.
Lastly, I have to doubt (especially with the lack of a replay) your macro in these situations. Your macro may be solid, and you may at least be keeping even with Protoss, but it doesn't seem like you are 'out-macroing' them. If you truly out-macro them, then your problem lies in engaging the Protoss army in a favorable/cost effective way.
Hey guys, so against ffe +2 7 gate blink are you supposed to be teching towards infestors, or just mass, mass roach ling. In addition, I find myself gradually stockpiling minerals during the attacks, so when is a good time to throw down a macro hatch?
On April 04 2012 20:57 Xorphene wrote: Low-masters here.
I'm getting pummelled in games vs all three races lately and i'm pretty sure it's down to my tech timings. I'll sit on low tech for far too long in a game.
I'll give my take on it, ..... snip
Thanks so much for taking the time to write such an excellent and verbose response, it's exactly what I was looking for and definitely will help me open my eyes. Superb stuff!
On April 05 2012 13:17 gp0942 wrote: One problem I find myself having, especially ZvP is that despite outmacroing, constantly injecting, not supply blocking, and researching upgrades and constantly producing, the zerg army is never as strong and my micro is not good enough to be able to exploit infestors against a death ball for example. Because of my economy, I can usually just throw supply capped army after supply capped army at the other guy until eventually they run dry, but there are moments after a conflict where they have a significant amount of army left and my reinforcements are still hatching. I'm not sure if I should be harassing more, countering better, or what.
If you are going 3 hatch before gas, you should never let it get to a 'deathball' state in the game, or at least you should do your best to avoid it (imo). Let me, at this point, tell you how infinitely helpful replays are. For the most part, you should be able to mass roach (infestors are not needed unless they are at blink or 3 base, imo). What happened during these 'moments after a conflict'? Did you get owned because of Immortals or FF or mass cannons or what? Right when your 3 bases are kicking into full swing (more or less when Lair finishes), you should be upgrading roaches. Roach speed, +1 attack, +1 armor, maybe burrow, etc. Don't tech too much all at once. After roach speed kicks in, you can literally just kill any toss that doesn't have the right composition. If they tech too much (fast colossus), they are probably dead. If they expand greedily, they are almost certainly dead. If they don't have enough sentries or immortals, they are at least in bad shape. If their macro / upgrades / control isn't the best, you are in good shape.
Secondly, if you are ever in an unfavorable engage, make sure to RUN away until your reinforcements arrive. The more Protoss is able to cost-effectively trade with you, the worse shape you are in. Protoss units can be incredibly cost effective, but you can reinforce faster than any other race.
Lastly, I have to doubt (especially with the lack of a replay) your macro in these situations. Your macro may be solid, and you may at least be keeping even with Protoss, but it doesn't seem like you are 'out-macroing' them. If you truly out-macro them, then your problem lies in engaging the Protoss army in a favorable/cost effective way.
I wan't sure exactly how to include a replay but hopefully this is right. Regardless, I think a lot of what you're saying is true: obviously my control isn't so great that I can be perfect with injects and such, but I've watched this replay several times and I was never want for larvae or resources as I constantly maintained 3 saturated bases. I'm guessing the problem with this game is the lack of pressure in early-mid game, and especially harassment to places besides their army. My main issue with this game is that although I felt mostly in control through creep spread and overlord spread, there was one point where had the protoss gone for my main rather than an expansion (or been better than a bronze-leaguer) I would have at the very least taken a lot of damage.
Hey guys, so against ffe +2 7 gate blink are you supposed to be teching towards infestors, or just mass, mass roach ling. In addition, I find myself gradually stockpiling minerals during the attacks, so when is a good time to throw down a macro hatch?
It hits at about 9:30, way too early for infestors (your lair tech, like roach speed, won't be done when he hits, but it should be starting or nearing completion, so it kicks when he gets that 15+ stalkers that just slow roach/ling can no longer handle it). Just get infestors.
My guide here shows me holding it. It's not a great game, not very high level, but the basic idea is pretty straightforward in tech timings, unit production, and how to punish the 7 gate opening.
On April 05 2012 12:33 lwwkicker wrote: First of all, I can't tell you how glad I am that you included a replay .
Ok, so compliments first, then criticism. I am glad that you are trying the 3 hatch before gas build against FFE Protoss. You also had pretty good job at creep spread throughout the game. Furthermore, good job expanding during the late game. Keep up that good work.
Now, the other stuff, haha. First, I would like to comment on your opening build before I go into the mid/late game. Since you are doing 3 hatch before gas, you want to get double gas around 44 supply. You got gas a bit too early (around 33 I think), and that cut into your drone count (much, much more than you would think). Secondly, I would recommend double evo instead of making a macro hatch. IMO, if you have enough money to make a macro hatch when you did, it means you didn't drone hard enough (or make double evos). The benchmark time is 8:00. You want to have at least 60 supply by this time. I think you had 54, or around there. If you do well, you can easily have 70 at this point (3 queens, some lings, mostly drones). At 9:00 in the game, I saw you only had 49 workers. At this point in time, especially if you weren't pressured hard (which you weren't), then you need to have at least 60 drones. Optimal/ideal count is 70-75 on three bases. Having a low drone count in the late-early or early-mid game is the root of many problems (including yours, imo).
I alternate back and forth between going 3 hatch vs FFE and a 2 hatch opener with ling muta. It depends on the map TBH, the only 2 that I downvote are korhal compound and entombed valley, since those are both amazingly good T/P maps especially with the close spawns in play on the ladder.
The reason I made the macro hatch was because I scouted him taking a ridiculously greedy third base on a super low number of gateways and I wanted to go bust it down and win with roach hydra. This was clearly a stupid decision, cause you can't break a protoss ever if he has sentries. The thing that confused me the most about this game was how he could afford so much tech before his third nexus finished. Void/colossus with range/sentries/upgrades?!
The second 'big mistake' you made was going hydras. Hydras are good at countering air harass, but so are queens and spores, and they don't cost gas. Hydras are good at defending because you are on creep, but they are slow as hell off creep, AND they get absolutely OWNED by colossus.
Now, let me explain myself for this next section. I love mutas. It's literally the reason why I chose Zerg when I first started playing. That being said, I would indeed recommend going mutas vs. what he had. Mutas destroy voids. Many, many lower level players think that the opposite is true. I can't tell you how many times I owned mass voids with mutas in lower (gold-ish) leagues. At 14:00 he had precisely zero stalkers and 5 sentries. I think he also had 6 voids and a few colossus. Needless to say, his anti-air was lacking. If he has a lot of cannons, do your best to keep you mutas active, and always look for the free kills you can get. Pylons, lone units, expansions, pick off whatever you can and get out fast. Lastly, you massed a TON of lings late-game. They are Zerg's go-to unit when you are in a crisis situation (or as a mineral/larva dump). Like, "Oh, shit, he's in my base, what can I dooooo". Considering his colossus count, and the fact that he had a decent amount of sentries on the field, zerlings were very, very useless. Maybe have like 20 or so to backstab if he moves out or is out of position, but massing lings is definitely a huge waste of resources at this point in the game.
Yeah I hate making roach/hydra, normally its 100% muta ling for me, but his opening seemed greedy enough that I could just go fcking kill him. Hydras suck except for defending gateway allins, and most of the time not even then. The lings were kind of a "holy fck my entire army just died maybe i can counterattack and try to re make a billion corruptors".
Should have just kept to going muta ling, it wrecks bad tosses.
The reason I made the macro hatch was because I scouted him taking a ridiculously greedy third base on a super low number of gateways and I wanted to go bust it down and win with roach hydra. This was clearly a stupid decision, cause you can't break a protoss ever if he has sentries. The thing that confused me the most about this game was how he could afford so much tech before his third nexus finished. Void/colossus with range/sentries/upgrades?!
I would just like to point out a couple things.
Mid game, if you start massing roaches after your 3 bases are saturated, you won't need the macro hatch if you injects are good enough (plus you need to be getting ups earlier off of those evo chambers you didn't have - it's a very good way to spend your money). You especially won't need it when your drone count is so low. If you see a greedy third, go kill him. You definitely don't need hydras at all. If you droned hard enough early on, he won't be able to hold you. At all. You will find that it is so terribly in your favor that it won't even be fun stomping him (kinda ).
Your desire to go kill him because of the greedy third wasn't stupid. Imo, it's what you want to do. You just went about killing that third the wrong way. You can brute-force it with roaches, if you so desire.
What confused you is somewhat of a 'higher order' concept. If he is teching (voids AND collosus) AND he is expanding, then his army is going to be way smaller than it should (or needs to) be. Stargates, voids, robos, and colossus are very expensive. You can utterly overwhelm him with roaches, easily. I gave the unit counts earlier. Something like 6 voids, 5 sentries, 1-3 (?) colossus, and nothing else. Sentries are good, very good, but not when they have zero backup. The 'deathball', as it turns out, wasn't so terribly scary. The sentries alone cannot protect the colossus (which are actually terribly fragile). And literally the only other units he had were voids. If you are going for the throat (via roaches), the voids won't be enough to stop you from killing him. Otherwise, stick to the mutas like I said before, haha.
Edit: And, yes, mutas do indeed destroy bad Protoss. Mutas are a great unit for easily defeating inferior players. Those players just can't handle the pressure, and if you find them unprepared, they kind of just lose right then and there.
^ Yea I had a lot of trouble with deathball play until my macro got to around masters level. Then, I just easily crushed any sort of 2 base deathball play with mass roach. At the lower levels, I think it's a struggle because your econ isn't up to par, so then you are like wtf how is he able to tech up to colossi after Dts and void rays and he's only on 2 base and I can't do shit about it?
Sounds like macro problems too. If you are below 60 supply when going fast third, then you need to seriously work on your macro (you should really just leave the game if your supply is below 60 before the 8 minute mark, you are just THAT far behind. Like really, almost impossible to come back, unless opponent has comparable macro, but toss macro'ing to 8 minute with FFE is a helluva lot easier than managing injects, scouting, dealing with zealot pressure, queens, maynarding...). What should never work, because at the higher levels someone would just rofl your getting colossi on 2 base? mass roach ezpz, works at the lower levels because people don't macro well. So the zerg just doesn't macro well and can't get enough roaches (wtf my 20 roaches can't beat someone who only made 4 colossi for his entire army all game long), and the Toss doesn't really know what he's doing and just bumrushes colossi as greedily as a zerg trying to go 2 base broodlord. Only difference is Toss has FF and wall-ins, and zerg doesn't.
Imo, if you see colossi, that means you should go straight to mutas, then and there. If Toss went like a stargate opener and kept 5+ phoenixes, and then goes colossi into third, I'd prefer going mass spine infestor fast hive, but whatever. You have to macro well to get the timings. It's not much macro required just to go FFE, make colossi, herp derp, but your shortcoming in macro let him get away with it when it shouldn't. That's why you never see it in pro play, yet in the lower levels, it's just so. fucking. frustrating (i was bronze at first, i lost always to this shit until eventually i just played enough games, had better macro, and never found it an issue anymore).
Also, if Toss is going double stargate (which is all-in), I would recommend you 'counter' the stargate with corruptors (imo hydras don't work, they need queen support, which means you can't punish them and counterattack and just encourage deathball which gets out of control quite quickly). If he dares go colossi, your corruptors already fielded will own him for having no gateways (could also go towards mutas after getting air control). He really has to go get sentries, but if he goes sentries your mass roach will own him, so then he has to go colossi, but that gets owned by corruptors.. and he should just die really. By the time he takes a third, you will have a huge army, and teching to hive, if you didn't just go kill him with mass roach/corruptor.
On April 05 2012 07:35 hubschrauber wrote: Hi guys, I'm a top 8 gold level player and I've been practicing ZvP with my platinum level buddy. I do the opening taught in Apollo's zerg tutorials: 14 gas, 14 pool, queen, ling-speed and 2 sets of lings for scouting. Then expand at 20.
He has been pylon-blocking my expansion which I normally just clear with my lings. Now he started dropping a cannon at my natural along with the pylon when going FFE. What is the best response to this? If I see it in time, I pull 4 drones to kill off the cannon. Is there a better response?
If I don't see it in time, what options do I have? I'd actually like to get a fast 3rd vs. FFE. Is that still possible?
Thanks for your help.
For starters, I would definitely recommend going 14or15 pool, then trying to expand at any time from 15-20 supply (the earlier the better). You don't need gas super early, especially before you expand.
That being said, regardless of what build you go, you have to stop that cannon from completing. Make sure you send the first overlord you make to your natural to spot if this happens. If you don't have lings when the cannon is placed, then send 4-5 or so drones down to kill it. Get the drones back to mining asap if he cancels. If he instantly replaces it, you should definitely have lings coming by this time.
If the cannon completes, you are in very bad shape (basically screwed), and you have two options now. 1 Base all-in (very bad idea), or trying to sneak a drone out and expanding somewhere else (bad idea). Neither are great, and if you hatch somewhere else, its going to be very very vulnerable. There is no reason/excuse for not seeing it in time; you just have to put your first overlord at your natural (it's a good habit to get into period).
Hi, thank you so much, this helps out a lot. I always float my 9-overlord above my natural, but as a Gold Level Player you can imagine how often I screw up seeing the cannon in time. ^^
On April 06 2012 01:19 stichlasser wrote: Whats the most common ZvZ opening?
14gas/14pool is pretty common I suppose. I have been seen a lot more hatch first in ZvZ in the recent weeks. Kinda hard question to answer, but I would say those are the top 2 most common builds. I personally see a lot of variability.
i can say that zvz is honestly my worst match up mainly because every zvz, for me anyway, it seems like players do these risky, coin flippy, all ins.
but my main problem right now is mutas. they annoy me and its so stupid to deal with. what should i do against a player that makes 12+ spines and then goes mutas? should i go infestor first or hydra first? i can defend my bases quite easily, but i find it difficult to take a 3rd at all because of how slow hydras are. and if i even attempt to move out i loose to stupid mass banling flanks on my hydras, and of course hydras dont have stim and are slow as shit so its kinda hard to spread my hydras out in time against speed banelings.
so what exactly should i do against a heavy turtle mutalisking player? it seems like i never have enough gas to get both hydras AND infestors on top of roaches just off of 2 base.
The way I combat mutas in most matches is... going mutas. Hydras are not the answer, unless you have awesome creep spread while you opponent is simultaneously spread creep toward you. If you don't want to go mutas vs his mutas, then you need to get infestors.
I like getting mutas more, because I am very comfortable using them. And, I find it somewhat easy to get an edge over most other muta players. If you are going muta vs. muta, there are a couple things that can put you way ahead of the opposing player. First, if you manage to get more gas sooner, then you can get more mutas sooner. For example, if they made too many banes or roaches, or they upgraded things like ovie speed, or any ground attack/armor. The game can easily be decided by one bad or good engagement between the two muta flocks. Second, get the armor upgrade as soon as spire finishes. Not attack, never get attack first, or even second. If you have an upgrade advantage, you can really start punishing the other player. You can stay in when you engage his mutas and force him to retreat or lose them all. Third, the single biggest impact on the size of your muta flock is gas. If you can kill 1 or more geysers, you are in great shape for the next couple mins. If you can keep denying gas, you basically win. Like I said, it takes one bad engage, and you can be screwed and (more or less) lose right there.
To address your last point, if the opposing muta player is turtling a lot, are they on 2 or 3 base at this point? If they are on 3 base and keep you on two, you are fucked, you might as well leave. No amount of anything will beat 3 base mutas if you are on two base for too long. Yet again, you don't really want hydras (for the reasons you mentioned and maybe more). You want roach/infestor and maybe some queens mixed in there. If he is on two base, and literally has 12 spines, your income advantage alone should help you a lot, assuming you can deflect his first couple rounds of muta harassment fairly well. If it is pretty late into the game and he is still going mutas, you might want to add some corrupters (but this is assuming that you have at least secured your third). Chain fungal mutas (almost all players seem to bunch them up). If you can kill a good portion of his flock with one set of fungals, you are in amazing shape. But, make sure to not lose your infests to stupid stuff. Pull them back as soon as they fungal, and be careful if the flock is over your hatch when infestors are spawning. If you can get one money fungal off on the flock before they get focused down, it was totally worth it. Just play steady, safe, and secure. Don't get caught with you pants down, don't move out unless you bases are at least somewhat safe to a counter (which will be coming).
How am i supposed to beat Colossi/stalker/voidray? Mutas melt to stalkers, corrupters melt to mutas, hydras to .. all of it. Tried both corrupter/hydra and simply mutalisks, neither worked.
EPT
