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t's not micro that prevented roach/banerain/infestor from being good - there's not much you can do to micro. You either blink the stalkers away, and then your colossi, sentries, zealots, and immortals get absolutely shredded, or you don't blink at all, in which case you get ruined as everything is clumped. If you go pure stalker, then I just FG+roach and win, don't even need to drop banes (although that adds even more).
Well you sort of need to slightly lead with the overlords, because the roaches are so much faster, so that means a toss can laay down a huge wall of FF, and kite the ovies until you turn around, killing a couple. If they just rinse and repeat, especially with a storm/immortal composition, it just makes engaging a well controlled protoss ball with banerain really difficult.
Really? Darkforce, blade5555 (blue high masters, df is pro player who beat idra at iem), and many others have posted here saying hydras is the only way to hold immortal/sentry.
My understanding is that the economically optimal way to hold it is with hydra, not the only way. I've held the allin with roach/ling a number of times, usually with 55-60 mining drones. The reason I would prefer roach/ling is because you can tech to spire while making these low gas units, and even though your drone count is low, it won't effect how many mutas you can make, drone count is irrelevant to gas count so long as you take all geysers. This compounded with the fact that they already have robo tech, and no TC means there will be a window without blink, making harassing and out-maneuvering the stalkers much much easier. All of this, on top of the fact that you held their heavy push, which means the biggest issue mutas have is already out of the question: very fast third.
Ah, interesting. So mass spines maybe better when one direct approach to bases like shakuras, entombed, while muta style better when there are multiple attack routes that are all very large.
Yeah exactly, on a map where there are straight push paths, and it's difficult to avoid engagements, turtling with spines and infestors is better than on a map that's spread and has many routes and entrances. Same concept for muta play, only the opposite. And this isn't to say one is better than the other, some maps lend themselves to both styles, some maps one over the other, and vice-versa.
Is there a solid way to punish a terran after he does the stupid 2 rax bunker push stuff (zvt)? Or do you just play normal and assume he's slighlty behind?
Banelings busts can work well if he doesn't prepare for it, since he doesn't have factory tech. Drone to 40. 1 gas at normal timing (20-30) for speed, and you can either return miners to mine it when you decide to go the bane bust route at 40, or you can harvest the gas a bit earlier, or you can even add a second gas if you want to go really heavy (maybe at like 30-40).
But I'd say the more solid route is just play normally and assume he's behind. Since he won't have hellions, you can take your third around 50 supply and get lair a bit later. If he goes with expo into 4 rax though, he can get a lot of marines, but with speed and a baneling nest and lings made reactively when he pushes out you should be fine.
I'd just go with the "no hellions = free third" route though.
I've seen a lot of muta/ling/bling in ZvP lately and was wondering is it situtational as in depending on the opponents army or is it like a "general" counter build like ZvP has ling/bling/muta or infestor/ling. If it isnt, is it better than the standard roaches/corrupters?
Roach/Hydra/Corruptor is seen as pretty outdated these days, if not straight up seen as no longer viable. Furthermore, on larger maps or maps where Toss can get a third a bit easier (antiga, entombed), it's worse. Also, it was used back in the 2 base lair ZvP days, back when zergs didn't really go fast third much - a lot of what made hydras good was a sort of timing, especially against what was very popular back then, single stargate openers. Suffice to say, a lot has changed since then, and you don't hit that valuable timing when going fast third, which is now seen as standard.
Muta play is really good vs Toss on maps where there is a lot of airspace. For example, most zergs just absolutely hate ZvP on TDA, because you can't take a fast third on it (either it's super far away, or you waste econ to kill rocks, in either case, a blink timing or immortal/sentry owns you if you go fast third), but the 2 base play zerg has to go to on this map is made up for how awesome it is a map for muta play.
I think right now there are 2 approaches to ZvP:
1. Muta play, use mutas to force Toss in his base (if he moves out, you have 20+ mutas and win the base trade easily) long enough that you get pure bl/infestor army out. 2. Infestors, using mass spines + some roach/ling + eventually corruptors to snipe colossi that try to snipe the spines, to stall for broodlords. Stephano style where you make very few roaches, 100+ drones, and mass spines with infestors and corruptors into fast hive.
muta play is better on maps with multiple attack routes, lots of airspace. Infestor play shines on maps where it's mostly a single attack route, and you can spine it up (even if it's large, like entombed or antiga or shakuras, infestor is still good because you are going 100+ drones and 30+ spines, but a map like korhal, where there are 2 very direct, diferent attack routes, is less good). So what sort of makes infestors bad, is what makes the map good for mutas, and vice versa.
Anyways, I don't think roach/corruptor is 'standard' anymore. Right now, 'standard' ZvP is probably muta play. If Toss opens stargate, you have to either make corruptors or hydras first to clear the air, then go into mutas. It's possible that toss may reactively get phoenix with range or something, but then you go towards infestors quicker.
Well you sort of need to slightly lead with the overlords, because the roaches are so much faster, so that means a toss can laay down a huge wall of FF, and kite the ovies until you turn around, killing a couple. If they just rinse and repeat, especially with a storm/immortal composition, it just makes engaging a well controlled protoss ball with banerain really difficult.
Oh, well definitely it's micro intensive for YOU. I meant that there wasn't much micro that Toss can do to 'counter' it.
If Toss lays down a bunch of FF, you just back off. Although yes, blinking back with stalker heavy army and storming can be quite annoying. But in my experience, it's 6+ colossi that really fucked over my banerain play, not storm+stalker play.
When failing at preventing a contain vP, MrBitter suggested:
On September 21 2010 11:34 MrBitter wrote: The other option is going all-in. If you take that route, don't bust out. Just tech to lair and try a Nydus play. If it works, you win, if it doesn't, you lose. Simple as that.
... I've personally tried this and it is only going to work if P is really, REALLY sloppy (and won't work anymore on platinum+ P). Managed to make it happen a few times but P usually becomes quite nervous when he doesn't see you try to bust out and will usually place pylons everywhere in his base and watch out for any incoming nydus.
Another thing that I have been experimenting with is: - getting a macro hatch - double gaz - teching to lair with first 100 gaz - keep 300 gaz in bank for overlord speed & drop - get both upgrades directly when lair finished - mass lings & get ling speed with next 100 gaz - drop his main
Still pretty risky and won't do it in a normal game but believe it or not I've had much more success with this rather than Nydus when being contained.
I usually crush the main pretty easily with this, but getting to the natural might be a little bit more troublesome... There are many different possibilities (keep on harassing and drop on top of his sentries; fall-back, break contain & expand; ...), but you'll usually be ahead at this point.
Alright, my ZvP has gone to hell recently...thoughts on dealing with 1 base immortal sentry? It's not so much the warp prism harass that's bad, but the push itself, which hit with 4 immortals, sentries, stalker, zealot..spines were instantly targeted down, and 4 immortals made roaches seem useless...so does this mean that I need to go hydra ling to hold this push?
On April 03 2012 17:16 KimJongChill wrote: Alright, my ZvP has gone to hell recently...thoughts on dealing with 1 base immortal sentry? It's not so much the warp prism harass that's bad, but the push itself, which hit with 4 immortals, sentries, stalker, zealot..spines were instantly targeted down, and 4 immortals made roaches seem useless...so does this mean that I need to go hydra ling to hold this push?
If you see it coming (scout 1gate robo, and/or no expand), then get more queens, get a lot of spines (like 5-8), and pump lings like a madman. Dont let the warpprism harass force to many units from you. You'll need a solid eco to keep your production up. Usually I get something like 10 lings. But if they're good a harassing you might need more.
Diamond zerg gere. Concerning lategame zvp. When you have your infestor/brood/spine deathball, against the protoss colo/archon/HT/stalker/MS deathball. Do you guys use corruptors? I generally dont. I find they're to supply expensive, and I'd rather have more broods. But that makes the MS even more of a pain to deal with. But if I get corruptors, they'll generally just die to archon/stalkers. How do you guys deal with the protoss deathball?
^ Sure you use corruptors... you need them for voidrays and mother ship.
You should be on pure broodlord/infestor, with supplementary corruptors (just don't morph ALL of them, leave a few behind depending on needs, then morph as battle goes on), with lots of spines.
They aren't really that supply expensive, they are 2 supply. You should have like 10+ broodlords, 10+infestors, and room for a bit more.
You just keep dancing out of range of their army, and keep sac'ing infestors (using burrow, going around, etc) and try to get the NP off. Vortex is 9 range, but it's not worth spending a vortex on a single infestors, and NP is 7 range. Really, eventually, you'll get the NP off, and then just spam vvvvvvvvvvvv until the NP kicks in and you vortex their own army, and that's GG right there as you spam IT around it and chain FG them in place to get raped. I've had times where like, their army will be too far away to vortex, so I just recall my broods to get closer to the army, but the primary goal is to just kill off the energy on that mothership. You don't need many corruptors (not like in zvt vs vikings), your 10+ infestors should be more than enough AA, but you may need like 8 to snipe a mothership real quick sometimes.
Alright, my ZvP has gone to hell recently...thoughts on dealing with 1 base immortal sentry? It's not so much the warp prism harass that's bad, but the push itself, which hit with 4 immortals, sentries, stalker, zealot..spines were instantly targeted down, and 4 immortals made roaches seem useless...so does this mean that I need to go hydra ling to hold this push?
You need to start pumping queens. Ideally, you recognize it's 4 gate robo instead of regular fast 4 gate, so you don't stop droning at 25-30 and instead drone up to 35-40. If you do that, you should be fine - just pump queens, delay lair, you can maybe get roaches, but your focus should be on ling/queen and just a few roaches. Spines don't work so well because they drop around it, but if you hold long enough for the queens to creep up your base and snipe any warp prism before it can unload shit into your main, you can go towards massing up spines at the front and re-rooting to deal with him, and then tech up to mass speedroaches, win.
There's a good replay that Darkforce posted in this thread about it, I think. Lobber created a guide on how to do the 4 gate robo, maybe it's in there instead. Search on it.
i still have some success with roach/corrupter though i can see why mutas are better. So i have decided to go try it, though id like to know some things first
About when should i get spire and how many gasses for it, should i Get double spire? What about eventual early (~9-10min) pushes? Should i still get roaches for that part of the game and just sacrifice them as i get mutas out?
Sorry for any grammar/format errors, On my iphone right now and yeah
^ Well you can do anything at anything below like gm level, and the real meat of your play, mass roach, is still very much viable (although that seems to be getting outdated recently, actually).
Corruptors just aren't a great counter to colossi. Muta play is a better way to counter them, or just going with pure roach if you want to be aggressive.
About when should i get spire and how many gasses for it, should i Get double spire? What about eventual early (~9-10min) pushes? Should i still get roaches for that part of the game and just sacrifice them as i get mutas out?
You get spire as soon as you know you are safe from a 2 base gateway push. Mutas get crushed by any sort of all-in play, so you either need to get a monumental lead (like maybe hold double stargate and kills lots of the stargate units or get corruptors out, or kill his third, or whatever), or when you realize that toss is definitely going to go for his third (muta is great against toss going fast third, I feel... ive heard some say fast third coutners it, i dont know about that, maybe i'm wrong on that, but just what i've noticed, experienced, and watched in pro games).
No double spire. It's not worth it in ZvP. It is worthwhile though, to get upgrades on muta constantly in ZvP. You want to get +1 attack first, then +1 armor, then +2 attack, then +2 armor (very balanced, as opposed to, say, zvz, where 0/3 just destroys 2/1 mutas).
You want to make as few roaches as possible. I think about 20 is what you need to gain enough map control. From there you want to focus on lings as your army, and then mutas. If toss becomes aggressive, like early aggression, you will need to get some more roaches. Eventually you will have a muta flock though and won't ever have to make any roaches though, once you have about 20+ mutas, if he ever pushes out, you'll just win any sort of base trade scenario.
You will need to switch into bl/infestor as soon as it gets to the point where it's like "okay, toss is starting to stabilize and defend me" or "toss is starting to get this big ass army". I'd really start going towards bl and get infestation pit as soon as toss has actually secured his third.
You'll want lots and lots of spines too. Muta play doesn't really need as many drones as, say, drone+infestor stephano style, i think you can be okay with just 65 drones (obviously, i you want 75, not 65, but jsut saying), so just incrementally add on more and more spines too.
I'm not sure what else to say. Decaf has a really, really good zvp muta guide, it's called like roach/ling/muta zvp. I know it's kind of daunting to get into mutas when you are used to infestors or roaches, but it gives you a really good understanding of the game, like when can toss push out, map control, et cetera.
It's really exactly like zvp - defend 2 base pressure, get muta, keep opponent trapped in their base and if they ever move out you counterattack and fuck them up and force them to go back or lose base trade, and then tech up. I guess the difference is that in zvt, the idea is to delay terran push, slow them down, cut off reinforcements, so when they arrive, you just absolutely kill their push because you have better econ (as long as your mutas stay alive, you should crush any T push, so it forces T to stay in their base until like close to maxed or before mutas really come out in number). But either way, you are basically forcing the opponent to stay in their base forever or else you just base trade and win, and then when they finally move out, you have lots of spines and broodlords.
On April 03 2012 17:16 KimJongChill wrote: Alright, my ZvP has gone to hell recently...thoughts on dealing with 1 base immortal sentry? It's not so much the warp prism harass that's bad, but the push itself, which hit with 4 immortals, sentries, stalker, zealot..spines were instantly targeted down, and 4 immortals made roaches seem useless...so does this mean that I need to go hydra ling to hold this push?
This is very easy to deal with, once you figure out he's doing immortal play and not some 1 base DT you should start +1 melee with the evo you should have because he might have went dt and immediately drop a macro hatch. Once you have enough gas for lair start that too but after +1 melee. You should drone till you have 1.75 bases fully saturated and then just mass queens and lings. By the time he pushes out you should have 4-6 queens and about 50ish lings, set up flanks so he has yo use FF around his entire army and queens target warp prism and you will simply overwhelm him. You never want to go roaches vs this because when he pushes he will have 3-4 immortals and unless you have a 170+ army of roaches you will never hold with FF/immortals. Once you crush the army 1 round of drones and you pretty much win, by that time P is almost out of minerals in their main and you have a better economy.
On April 03 2012 17:57 gronnelg wrote: Diamond zerg gere. Concerning lategame zvp. When you have your infestor/brood/spine deathball, against the protoss colo/archon/HT/stalker/MS deathball. Do you guys use corruptors? I generally dont. I find they're to supply expensive, and I'd rather have more broods. But that makes the MS even more of a pain to deal with. But if I get corruptors, they'll generally just die to archon/stalkers. How do you guys deal with the protoss deathball?
The late game P army with a mothership is really strong and very hard to deal with. If they do not have any voidrays then you should just have 8-12 infestors for minor AA and pure broodlords. The only real threat the mothership possess is the vortex so if you have 12-15 broodlords and properly spread them with hydra/roach/infestor support the P best case can only vortex 4-5 broods.Once their ground army is dead you can use fungals + infested terrans to quicky kill it.
After the game, he asks me what he should have done to beat the double stargate, and I didn't really have much to say to him. So could you help him out? thanks!
I have been watching dimaga a lot recently and I really like his ling/baneling w/ drop style against Protoss.
Already feeling quite comftable against 2base pushes from protoss.
My problem is the transition afterwards... I don't really know what to tech into depending on what the protoss will probably have...
I normally just go for broodlords, but sometimes they come out to late and I have to fight against archon templar w/ storm which is kind of hard. (possible with baneling drops)
plz, help...
tl:dr = what to transition into after ling/baneling w/ upgrades opening against Toss
Hi guys, recently I had been on a slump (well, been a very long time already) but there is this unit composition that really puzzles me in ZvZ.
When would you go for roach hydra (knowing the opponent isn't going for muta)? Sometimes I just win with it against a roach infestor composition, but similarly, sometimes I just lose.
I'm not quite sure where you are getting mutas are the standard now, they were just going out of style imo...
Most of the GSL ZvP's seem to be muta focused still. The difference nowadays seem that a lot of zergs are opening hydras to put on pressure and kill off stargate units, and then go into muta. A game on winter bel shir comes to mind, when wolf kept saying "oh no i really dont agree with hydras, if P makes colossi.. oh he's going colossi! This is horrible!" and he traded with the roach/hydra army when maxed, took a base behind the map control with the huge hydra army, killed off all the stargate units, and went straight into mutas. It worked out extremely good. I think it was a zerg like curious or something, not nestea or anything, and not some guy who had never been in gsl before.
The late game P army with a mothership is really strong and very hard to deal with. If they do not have any voidrays then you should just have 8-12 infestors for minor AA and pure broodlords. The only real threat the mothership possess is the vortex so if you have 12-15 broodlords and properly spread them with hydra/roach/infestor support the P best case can only vortex 4-5 broods.Once their ground army is dead you can use fungals + infested terrans to quicky kill it.
I disagree. Voidrays aren't useful, they get owned by corruptors+fg too hard (carriers are better, or storm+ht, and ideally, mothership/archon/colossi for end game goal, but colossi to 'counter' infestors and archons and stalkers for bl).
I go up to like 16 infestors most of the time when mothership comes out. I really rely on using NP, and if they get that vortex off, you want to spam lots of IT around it, chain FG it, so you can remake those broodlords asap and buy time.
After the game, he asks me what he should have done to beat the double stargate, and I didn't really have much to say to him. So could you help him out? thanks!
Search, answered a million times in this thread. Use queens to 'counter' void rays, and spores to 'counter' phoenixes. If you don't know it's double stargate, and then get caught by surprise, throw down like 8 spores all at once at base, and cancel if necessary. As long as you don't lose a base, and make sure to not lose drones, you will be fine. You can follow up with anything really, although I'd recommend against hydras due to phoenix in alrge numbers owning hydras due to +light damage and all. I'd really recommend getting corruptors to push the air back. Then, you can either go speedbanes if he really committed and has no sentries or warp gates, or you can into infestors with lots of roaches, and just be aggressive.
I normally just go for broodlords, but sometimes they come out to late and I have to fight against archon templar w/ storm which is kind of hard. (possible with baneling drops)
plz, help...
tl:dr = what to transition into after ling/baneling w/ upgrades opening against Toss
Well, generally there are 3 ways to play ZvP: 1. Trade armies to keep toss army small so you can tech up 2. Use mutas to keep toss in base so you can tech up 3. Use mass spine+infestor and then corruptors against colossi who try to snipe spines, to delay so you can tech up.
With ling/bane, you need to get 1-3 infestors at about 150 supply (throw it down then), and max out with all the lings into banes, and the rest roaches (about 30 roaches). Because 2+ colossi fry any number of lings. As long as toss didn't go double robo colossi production, you will stomp him. Even if he does, if you push quick enough, you will stomp him. The key is you have to have to have to push when at 200/200. You should max out quickly, you are just essentially making pure roach/ling and just 2 infestors. Then at 200/200, turn all lings into banes, drop tech,and hit him.
Remax on roach/bane/infestor if the fight isn't that great, or you lsoe a lot in the trade (if micro'd right, you should always kill off his entire army, it's just a matter of how much do you lose too). If you lose too much, remax on roach/banelingrain. If you trade really well, remax on like 10+ infestors and mass roach, attack again while getting hive, then get broodlrods. It's also safe just to go into more roach/banerain/infestor though.
When would you go for roach hydra (knowing the opponent isn't going for muta)? Sometimes I just win with it against a roach infestor composition, but similarly, sometimes I just lose.
I am in Diamond if it means anything
You go for roach/hydra if you took a third base against a 2 base lair roach player. You also want hydras if both of you go third and the game is very low drone, aggressive, with roaches. The third delays things a lot, so generally you go for infestor if you are on 3 base vs 3 base, and you go hydras if you are fighting pure roach on 2 base while on 3. There's also a great timing when roach/hydra beats roach/infestor, infestors just take too long, or give up too much map control.
In lower leagues infestors are really popular. People don't macro well, so timings are missed, and people aren't as aggressive, so the chance to get infestors happens a lot when it shouldn't. Higher up, you tech to infestors, the oponent just takes a third and then goes pure roach and overruns you with 3 base vs 2 base.
I guess if you both go third base, and it's really, really aggressive mass roach, you would both get hydras. I think this happens more and more in higher levels where players have solid macro to hit such timings and abuse infestor players.
2 base infestor is like the worst build in the world (unless against fast lair muta). Gives up map control, other player can just take third and then mass roach and overrun you, or he can get his own infestors too, later, while on 3 base and have map control with is roach army so he can safely do that with a bigger econ.
I'm getting pummelled in games vs all three races lately and i'm pretty sure it's down to my tech timings. I'll sit on low tech for far too long in a game.
What are the standard/suggested timing to tech lair and hive?
vs T, i'm opening 14h 16p 21g, pulling two drones off at 100>ling speed, next 100 gas going lair. Regardless of choosing infestor/muta play I sit on lair for far too long and hive is always an afterthought - when I do decide to tech it costs me games as I needed broods/ultras way earlier.
vs P, opening 3 hatch vs FFE - stephano style 2 gas at 6 mins, RW/Evo at 7 mins etc. Obviously i'm factoring lair upgrade with first 100 gas, but again, if he survives - i'm not an all-in kind of player, sure i'll commit if I see weakness but I prefer to see that as game sense instead of all-in, but my transitions again are weak. I'll generally push towards infestor afterwards but then stay on lair tech. In a matchup where you need especially broods to counter lategame P army, you can imagine what happens.
vs Z, i'm totally lost. I'm losing 80% of ZvZ because i'm being non-committal and have no confidence in my ability to win the matchup. I've switched between 14/14 safe/aggressive with banes, 15h w/ defenseive banes, 14p/16h with spines and NOTHING is working. When things were working however, it was any of the above builds into roach hydra/infestor or ling/muta.
So basically, my mid-game timing are totally screwed. Any advice on supply timings in the early-mid games for techs and markers/general timers for hive tech in all three matchups would be greatly appreciated. It's a good time for me to experiment and practice this week!
On April 04 2012 20:57 Xorphene wrote: Low-masters here.
I'm getting pummelled in games vs all three races lately and i'm pretty sure it's down to my tech timings. I'll sit on low tech for far too long in a game.
What are the standard/suggested timing to tech lair and hive?
vs T, i'm opening 14h 16p 21g, pulling two drones off at 100>ling speed, next 100 gas going lair. Regardless of choosing infestor/muta play I sit on lair for far too long and hive is always an afterthought - when I do decide to tech it costs me games as I needed broods/ultras way earlier.
vs P, opening 3 hatch vs FFE - stephano style 2 gas at 6 mins, RW/Evo at 7 mins etc. Obviously i'm factoring lair upgrade with first 100 gas, but again, if he survives - i'm not an all-in kind of player, sure i'll commit if I see weakness but I prefer to see that as game sense instead of all-in, but my transitions again are weak. I'll generally push towards infestor afterwards but then stay on lair tech. In a matchup where you need especially broods to counter lategame P army, you can imagine what happens.
vs Z, i'm totally lost. I'm losing 80% of ZvZ because i'm being non-committal and have no confidence in my ability to win the matchup. I've switched between 14/14 safe/aggressive with banes, 15h w/ defenseive banes, 14p/16h with spines and NOTHING is working. When things were working however, it was any of the above builds into roach hydra/infestor or ling/muta.
So basically, my mid-game timing are totally screwed. Any advice on supply timings in the early-mid games for techs and markers/general timers for hive tech in all three matchups would be greatly appreciated. It's a good time for me to experiment and practice this week!
Hmm okay that's a lot but i'll see if i can break it down. First vs terran.
ZvT used to be my best MU because of my muta control, i would beat people with 20 or so mutas and just harass them to death. Slowly Ts got a lot better with leaving enough marines around and turrets everywhere so i ran into the same problem where i just kept making mutas and just try to win with them but 17min in with 3/3 marines and mass turrets mutas just aren't effective at ending games. So recently i switched too infestor/ling off of 3 base with fast upgrades into either ultra or broods. You can do this fairly easily because 6-8 inefstors are enough to hold any midgame push and you should have 2/2 relatively quickly. You will have a lot of gas off of 3 bases and you can easily start your 4th and hive at the same time and choose your tech path of your preference. The few problems i've ran into were mostly due to drops but 2-4 spines + 1 spore at each base with 8-10 lings at each base deal with drops really easily. Aside from that i haven't really ran into too many problems with ling/infestor. I don't really have an exact build order but i start with 15 hatch 16 pool and 18ish gas depending on if they are getting gas or not, if they don't then i delay my gas as well. Idra has recently switched to this style so if you need any other help with the build check out his stream.
There is the stephano variation of this build where he gets roaches before lair which allows him to secure a 3rd base but aside from that almost everything else is identical. Stephano gets 6-8 infestors with mass melee upgrades with 8-12 roaches. He then starts hive fairly quickly and picks his tech routes from there.
The second style in ZvT which has been popular since beta but has slowly been used less of is the ling/bling/muta style. I used this style for a long time and only recently started using the infester/ling so i have a lot more experience with it. One thing i noticed yesterday while watching IMLosiara's stream was the time he gets his 4th. He gets his 4th and gets those gases mining while he's saturating his 3rd bases mineral patches. What i got from that is since muta's are really gas intensive and only have a 3-7min period of doing some potentially game winning damage you still need hive tech to finish off a good Terran. 6 gas geysers is not enough to support healthy muta production + upgrades + banelings + eventually starting hive tech. Now i haven't tried the build since yesterday but i'd imagine it would be somewhat difficult to hold some sort of mid game timing but losiara was doing fine yesterday vs korean GMs. As for when to tech i noticed he would start his hive + infestor upgrade when he had around 20-24 mutas. This would give him a good enough buffer to deal with pushes while slowly adding inefstors while teching to hive. His muta control was really good i think i saw him losing 1-2 mutas max so you can't lose 7-8 and expect to replace them and get the infestors + hive at the same time.
vs P i recently learned with stephano style you can pressure while teching and the P can't really do much about it via roaches/lings.
So you open the standard 3 hatch style scouting to make sure no all in is coming while teching to lair. I prefer drops vs p and if you can get 6-8 overlords full of roach/ling with another small group of units to hit their 3rd/natural they will almost always lose a nexus which would tip the advantage to you tremendously. While dropping ideally you would pick up a 4th get those gases saturated while getting infestors/hive. pure roach/ling off of 6 gasses is really easy to afford, you'll notice you can remax over and over again and you probably won't run out of gas so tech while you're pressuring. The main thing the pressure does is it keeps the P on their current tech whether that's robo or some sort of archon/HT tech. The late game P army is only really scary when they can get a mothership with mass colo/archon/stalker/carrier/voidray etc. But if you can keep them on the 3 bases and trade effectively with the roach/ling which shouldn't be too hard to do because you're choosing the army location (his base) so FF and weird chokes will never be in the P's favor. The only real time i've failed with this is when the p know's the push is coming and can snipe 1-3 overlords before the units are dropped. So for teching vs P you always want to tech while you're pressuring, and if you're not pressuring you're playing ZvP wrong (see every Zerg player with success vs P).
vs Z is the hardest for me becuase i don't really understand what to tech too, i see ultras sometimes but rarely do i ever see games go that late. The games usually end with the person with the stronger econ that leads into a better roach/hydra/infestor army. Fungals/engagements/and small roach attacks when opponent is out of position are the few things i notice work in pro level games. What i would recommend is once your 2/2 is finished and you have a healthy econ tech to hive to get 3/3 started and experiment with ultras as meat shields, that's what i'm working on lately.
Hi guys, I'm a top 8 gold level player and I've been practicing ZvP with my platinum level buddy. I do the opening taught in Apollo's zerg tutorials: 14 gas, 14 pool, queen, ling-speed and 2 sets of lings for scouting. Then expand at 20.
He has been pylon-blocking my expansion which I normally just clear with my lings. Now he started dropping a cannon at my natural along with the pylon when going FFE. What is the best response to this? If I see it in time, I pull 4 drones to kill off the cannon. Is there a better response?
If I don't see it in time, what options do I have? I'd actually like to get a fast 3rd vs. FFE. Is that still possible?
Hi mid-high master here, I just want to know how to deal with turtle mech terran who goes for double armory. I usually roach if I see mech and try to tech to brood lor, but 2/2 3/3 thors just rape my brood. It just takes so much upgrades to match the double armory. If I go for too many upgrades then I have to delay my tech. If he attacks before then tech kicks in them I am dead.
EPT
