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Reki
Philippines89 Posts
How would you respond to nexus first protoss players? On March 31 2012 19:13 Belial88 wrote: There's nothing you can do. I'm plat but after reading a zvp guide from decaf (or was it coffee or caffene? sorry forgot name) I was convinced that 12 pool punishes nexus first. Send 6 lings over when the pool finishes then make a walk-by to the main to troll probes. | ||
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TommyServo
Canada2 Posts
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
On March 31 2012 22:59 Reki wrote: I'm plat but after reading a zvp guide from decaf (or was it coffee or caffene? sorry forgot name) I was convinced that 12 pool punishes nexus first. Send 6 lings over when the pool finishes then make a walk-by to the main to troll probes. You can't reactively 12 pool to counter nexus first though. | ||
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Vond
Sweden145 Posts
As a rule of thumb, should I just take the losses vs the cannons to do any damage? I was pretty bad at keeping mutas active overall I felt, but playing even more passively would let them just max out in peace, so I'm a bit curious on what others do in such situations. Plat EU, think opponent was diamond (mostly play vs dia) but not quite sure since he was so bad. http://drop.sc/148635 | ||
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lwwkicker
United States140 Posts
On April 01 2012 00:51 Vond wrote: When going mass-muta in ZvP to harass/baserace, and the protoss just puts a TON of cannons down, what is the best way to approach this? I normally never go muta in ZvP but tried it today in a game that started out very, very badly, and when I went to harass his third with my mutaball there was a huge number of cannons waiting for me + archon(s) etc. I ended up winning the game anyway once he moved out as well.. for some reason he just didn't build workers or upgrade his army. Vs any half decent opponent I would've lost this game as I played rather poorly (except for injects, only plus side of the game really from my pov). As a rule of thumb, should I just take the losses vs the cannons to do any damage? I was pretty bad at keeping mutas active overall I felt, but playing even more passively would let them just max out in peace, so I'm a bit curious on what others do in such situations. Plat EU, think opponent was diamond (mostly play vs dia) but not quite sure since he was so bad. http://drop.sc/148635 Attack any place that you can find a weak spot. Keep him in his base. Take any and every free kill you can get, even if it is just one pylon. If he is super turtle mode, just expand and tech while harassing (which you did a decent job of doing). Think of how much money (an insane amount in this case) that he is wasting on cannons. A spine crawler wall goes a long way to help slow down a baserace if it comes to that, but do that after you expand, unless you see the protoss moving out. If you were to look closely at his third base, there were only two pylons powering like 12 cannons. Dive in and snipe those if you are that far ahead. I mean, you were MILES ahead virtually the whole time because of his god awful saturation. As a side note, always expect protoss to cannon your third, especially if you take it before your nat like you did. Furthermore, you got roaches and gas way too fast if you were going for 3 early bases. You also got mutas at like... 16 minutes. You had roaches and a comfortable three base economy. Why not roach/infest into hive/brood? Hell, you could have even maxed on roaches and killed him, at basically any time. But if you already have mutas, tech to hive and start trading your mutas away slowly and go for broods. And yes, you are right, your opponent was... really, really bad. 37 probes on 2 base for the longest time... I mean, super bad. He was diamond? You were double his supply for the last ten minutes of the game. You could have just killed him at any time you wanted. | ||
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Vond
Sweden145 Posts
On April 01 2012 06:28 lwwkicker wrote: Attack any place that you can find a weak spot. Keep him in his base. Take any and every free kill you can get, even if it is just one pylon. If he is super turtle mode, just expand and tech while harassing (which you did a decent job of doing). Think of how much money (an insane amount in this case) that he is wasting on cannons. A spine crawler wall goes a long way to help slow down a baserace if it comes to that, but do that after you expand, unless you see the protoss moving out. If you were to look closely at his third base, there were only two pylons powering like 12 cannons. Dive in and snipe those if you are that far ahead. I mean, you were MILES ahead virtually the whole time because of his god awful saturation. As a side note, always expect protoss to cannon your third, especially if you take it before your nat like you did. Furthermore, you got roaches and gas way too fast if you were going for 3 early bases. You also got mutas at like... 16 minutes. You had roaches and a comfortable three base economy. Why not roach/infest into hive/brood? Hell, you could have even maxed on roaches and killed him, at basically any time. But if you already have mutas, tech to hive and start trading your mutas away slowly and go for broods. And yes, you are right, your opponent was... really, really bad. 37 probes on 2 base for the longest time... I mean, super bad. He was diamond? You were double his supply for the last ten minutes of the game. You could have just killed him at any time you wanted. Cheers for the response, About the early roaches, indeed, I never do my opening build like that, it was just a desperation move on my part to be able to take out the cannons easier so I could re-take the third. The mutaswitch-idea just poped in my head when I had just fought off his push which was quite immortal-heavy, and I didn't want to keep massing roaches, and also I thought I was behind (as I should've been behind at that point if he had probed up), hadn't yet seen his saturation and just assumed he was atleast half decent. Tbh, even as I was harassing with my mutas I thought he was nearing maxed and then when I spotted him moving out I assumed I just saw a small part of his army, so never knew I could've killed him that easily before I did. Anyway, next time I try this style I'll try to do what you mentioned and just try to snipe whatever I can constantly to be annoying and keeping him in his base. Thanks again! | ||
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Alkresh
United States88 Posts
On March 31 2012 23:37 TommyServo wrote: What would be a good zerg Strat for lower level of play. I'm only in Silver. Against Zerg 14 pool 14 gas, make a queen and roach warren when pool finishes, and go roaches and macro up. Fairly safe and easy to do. Get +1 and do a timing attack off of two bases. Against Terran 15 hatch 15 pool 17 gas and pull drones out of gas after you get 100 for speed, and then just macro up. you can defend most pushes from the terran very early with speedlings. Transition into ling baneling and mutas, as mutas are somewhat easier to grasp at a lower level than infestors. Against Protoss you can do most standard openings and be somewhat safe, transition into speed roaches and if you macro well you should be able to win. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On March 31 2012 22:59 Reki wrote: I'm plat but after reading a zvp guide from decaf (or was it coffee or caffene? sorry forgot name) I was convinced that 12 pool punishes nexus first. Send 6 lings over when the pool finishes then make a walk-by to the main to troll probes. You can't reactively do anything, is what I meant. Obviously, if you go 6 pool, it 'punishes' nexus first, but it's not reactive, it's cheese, because it's blind and only works if the opponent makes a decision before you can scout to infer what choice he'll make. A coinflip. I don't know if 12 pool would 'punish' nexus first either. First off, Toss always double probe scouts, so he'll see if he's safe to go nexus first. If the pool is made before 2:00, Toss can just go forge. And I don't know if 12 pool would get lings in time, especially on large maps. Also, you have to factor in that 12 pool really hurts you econ, probably 6 lings = 3 drones, then maybe about 3-4 drones 'lost' due to the build, so you have to kill more than at least 6 probes to come out ahead, which will be really, really hard to do, impossible if toss micros properly. | ||
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ishkabibble
Canada161 Posts
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zul
Germany5427 Posts
On March 30 2012 23:49 LazinCajun wrote: In my experience, most if not all early common T pushes are easier to handle with hatch first because of the lowground creep. 15H then 15-17 pool zvt is absolutely the standard. 15H is standard, but to be safe you should build an earlier pool than 16 or 17. Pool at 14 or 15 is better and it doesn`t even put you behind eco-wise. A faster queen adds security and due to faster larva-inject, your eco gets a faster boost. I feel safest going 15H 14pool and scouting for proxy baracks with a drone. This doesn`t mean I always do it, sometimes I do 15H 16Pool, but I take this risk willingly and am prepared to type GG if a fast 2 rax + bunkers is coming. Maps play a huge role in this decision. (for example: never play that greedy on shakuras, because the threat of getting your natural choke blocked by 3 bunkers is always there.) | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
I've been going mutas for the past few weeks and I like the ability that they give you to deny your opponent's third and possibly harass his mineral line if he's not getting infestors out too fast. However I find myself playing against a lot of people in low masters who just completely forget about taking a third base and do a 2 base roach hydra infestor allin. Should I only make ~10 mutas and then start massing roach infestor once my third is finished, or is there a way to hold these attacks with muta ling plus speed banes? Also, as far as transitions out of mutas, do you like fast hive? I've been going for fast infestors to transition into ultras since I'm mining more gas by definition than my opponent. However the aforementioned allins on 2-3 bases are killing me recently. Is this tech path I'm going on too risky? | ||
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lwwkicker
United States140 Posts
For my transition, if I am ahead when I am going mutas, I just keep expanding, massing mutas, upgrading (air), and doing any damage that I can. There are definitely other ways to do it, but you just keep your opponent on their heels the whole time while getting more and more ahead of them. Make sure to counter/backstab with speedlings. TL;DR, Mutas are a BO loss to the all-in you described (unless you are way ahead somehow). | ||
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
On April 02 2012 02:36 HyperionDreamer wrote: Question for all you ZvZ masters (belial :D) I've been going mutas for the past few weeks and I like the ability that they give you to deny your opponent's third and possibly harass his mineral line if he's not getting infestors out too fast. However I find myself playing against a lot of people in low masters who just completely forget about taking a third base and do a 2 base roach hydra infestor allin. Should I only make ~10 mutas and then start massing roach infestor once my third is finished, or is there a way to hold these attacks with muta ling plus speed banes? Also, as far as transitions out of mutas, do you like fast hive? I've been going for fast infestors to transition into ultras since I'm mining more gas by definition than my opponent. However the aforementioned allins on 2-3 bases are killing me recently. Is this tech path I'm going on too risky? There are generally two ways to play mutalisk, keep making them and go ling/speedbane, or transition to roach/infestor right away. I say generally because there are some specific strategies like fast hive, double upgrade ling, and things like that, but I'm just speaking for the most standard. The Idea behind the mutas is that you secure a macro advantage above your opponent, which means due to the gas cost of getting an upgraded roach/hydra/infestor ball off of two bases, your three should be able to quickly catch up and surpass him in terms of efficacy, unless you're already playing from behind. For the most standard of playing, I would recommend transitioning into roach/infestor straight away, with double evolution chamber as soon as your third base is up. If you've succeeded in denying the third base while getting your own up quickly and safely, there is no reason for you to lose to any 2base play. You should have ample infestor energy, and if you scout that he is staying on 2bases, add in spine crawlers, and chain fungal in range of the spines. | ||
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TheAngelofDeath
United States2033 Posts
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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lwwkicker
United States140 Posts
On April 02 2012 08:18 TheAngelofDeath wrote: Just played a game, I'm mid masters, and have a simple question. How do you beat mass raven/viking/bc??? I went for infestor corrputor, but hunter seeker missle combined with viking kiting made it impossible to break, and then the bc's just wrecked my life. Game finished with me having 12k more total resources than him, I feel like a baddie. Plz help <3 A replay would really help tons. I would just say don't let it get to that point where Terran has the ultimate deathball they want. The composition you mentioned has no mid game, so I would say just don't let it get to that point. It seems like you could have gone in there and killed him at any time in the mid/early game, but without a replay, I don't really know. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On April 01 2012 23:59 zul wrote: 15H is standard, but to be safe you should build an earlier pool than 16 or 17. Pool at 14 or 15 is better and it doesn`t even put you behind eco-wise. A faster queen adds security and due to faster larva-inject, your eco gets a faster boost. I feel safest going 15H 14pool and scouting for proxy baracks with a drone. This doesn`t mean I always do it, sometimes I do 15H 16Pool, but I take this risk willingly and am prepared to type GG if a fast 2 rax + bunkers is coming. Maps play a huge role in this decision. (for example: never play that greedy on shakuras, because the threat of getting your natural choke blocked by 3 bunkers is always there.) It's just 1 drone difference between 15 pool and 16 pool... it's not a huge deal. Map distance is a WAY bigger factor then if you put down your pool 5 seconds later. Not to mention, factors like the distance between mineral patches, how your drone pair, how the opponent worker pairs, are also bigger deals than if you go 15 pool or 16 pool. I used to go 14h/15p every game for about a year in ZvT. For the last few months, I've been going 14h/16p, and I can tell you, I feel about 200 extra minerals at ~35 supply. It's a HUGE boost. I don't know why, maybe I'm making it up, but it's extremely obvious to me when I go 16 pool vs 15 pool. The most common builds these days are rax/gas, so I feel it's a way better choice. Sometimes 2 rax happens, yes, but we aren't playing on maps from 2 months ago anymore. Nowadays, the maps are a lot bigger - the imbalances in the maps are usually other reasons, not close spawns. I don't recall ever losing to a 2 rax on ladder in recent times (obviously, if someone higher level does it, they will crush me, but of equivalent skill at least). The critical moment of 2 rax is at 17 supply, before your pool pops. Your queen kind of ends the 2 rax, but it's not the answer to it. Worker micro is the answer to 2 rax, really. Going 14 pool sounds ridiculously early. You should go for 15 pool, if you want to be 'safe', but on larger maps I'd recommend 16 pool or later. As for maps like shakuras where they can choke block, my answer is always to drone scout ~13, and then if I see they didn't take gas or are 2 raxing, I will patrol a worker at the ramp and at the natural ramp, and pull the 2 drones at 16 supply so they get there by 17 supply (which is when the ramp block goes down). | ||
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
On April 02 2012 08:55 KimJongChill wrote: okay...mid masters and how the hell do you deal with ebay block, I feel like taking another expo is suicide against hellions, and the fact that this was on metalopolis made it so much worse. I decided to just go for a baneling bust, but that didn't really work out...any suggestions? Just play standard, using baneling busts/1base roach builds will not get you far at all. shift click the scv so it follows it, get him off of building as soon as possible. Keep the drone on the ebay, kill it with your first four lings and play standard. It's a nuisance, but just gas pool and play as if you were going 14/14. | ||
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lwwkicker
United States140 Posts
On April 02 2012 08:55 KimJongChill wrote: okay...mid masters and how the hell do you deal with ebay block, I feel like taking another expo is suicide against hellions, and the fact that this was on metalopolis made it so much worse. I decided to just go for a baneling bust, but that didn't really work out...any suggestions? Deal with it the same way you deal with a Pylon block? Sure, it delays your expo (and that sucks), but I don't feel like you need to all-in him just cause that happened. Doing the ebay block slows them down a ton (they have to place it before their rax to block a 15 hatch (edit: or cut workers?)), so no need to panic. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I've been going mutas for the past few weeks and I like the ability that they give you to deny your opponent's third and possibly harass his mineral line if he's not getting infestors out too fast. However I find myself playing against a lot of people in low masters who just completely forget about taking a third base and do a 2 base roach hydra infestor allin. Should I only make ~10 mutas and then start massing roach infestor once my third is finished, or is there a way to hold these attacks with muta ling plus speed banes? Also, as far as transitions out of mutas, do you like fast hive? I've been going for fast infestors to transition into ultras since I'm mining more gas by definition than my opponent. However the aforementioned allins on 2-3 bases are killing me recently. Is this tech path I'm going on too risky? Roach/Hydra/Infestor comes incredibly late, if he's doing that on 2 base, you should be able to just crush him in a straight up fight since you should be on 3 bases. So I'm imaging the game is going like this: - You go ~50 supply lair (if you go 30 supply lair, or ie super fast lair, that's kind of cheesy, if he doesn't die he just has a huge lead, even if his third is later, because he has a much stronger econ in drone count, he can either mass roach/ling on hatch tech, speedroaches on 2 base, or go 2 base roach/infestor and secure his third and just have a way stronger army, or he can even go later lair muta and beat you with sheer econ doing the same build) - You get mutas, he's trapped on 2 base because he went lair so can't put on aggression with roach/ling, you get your third up very quickly. Then - He gets infestors so he can secure his third base, except he doesn't get third - I don't know why he's adding hydras, that's stupid, never get hydras to 'counter' muta play... So, the situation is you have ling/bane/muta on 3 base, and he has 2 base roach/infestor (hydra if he's dumb). If he has hydras, just get baneling speed and flank with banes and wipe them out. There's not much to it, hydras are a really bad choice for that reason. Anyways... You'll see a lot of pros play this situation, I think Nestea did it on metalopolis in the recent MLG. Basically, you don't drone up your third too hard, and make lots of lings (you are up a base, you are ahead, you dont need to lose because you have no units but a better econ). Think of it as zergling 'counter' infestors. 5 infestors will just get raped by 40 speedlings. So, he moves out with roach/infestor, right? You are on 3 base, you should be about maxed, because infestors take a long ass time to get out. So when he pushes out, spread your lings. Multiple groups. A flank for half of them. A good way to split up your army is to patrol them perpendicular to where you are going to attack, and it will spread them really really well. Then, simply attack. Try spreading your mutas a bit, but you should stomp his army. If he has hydras, it will be a lot easier. What usually happens, is someone moves out with mainly roach/hydra, and some infestors, so you go heavier on banes, and heavier on mutas (he's teching hard too, so it's okay). You really should be able to push HIM once at 200/200, because he's teching so hard, that he will be at like 120 supply and you will crush him because his army will be tiny, like 20 roaches, 10 hydras, 2 infestors. Now, what is really difficult, is roach/queen/infestor. That's the 'proper' response against mutas if you don't go mutas yourself. In such a case, you should really patrol 2-4 lings in your base to make sure he doesn't make a nydus (because that's the one thing you dont want, or you just lose right there and then, no way to fight that army). If he is going 2 base all-in roach/queen/infestor, you need to really deny creep and nyduses. When he attacks your base, you have to snipe the nydus, and just go base trade. You really have to read what he's doing quick enough in such a scenario and go roach/infestor yourself, before it's too late. All the mutas are doing is getting map control, which allows you to deny his third, get your own third, and kill overlords and scouting and possibly harass. Once you've accomplished this goal, you should be switching to roach/infestor as soon as the opponent has his infestation pit out. If he's going 2 base all-in though, with roach/queen/infestor, you should base trade. TL;DR, Mutas are a BO loss to the all-in you described (unless you are way ahead somehow). I don't really agree. It's about who has more bases. If you have ling/bane/muta on 3 base, you will beat any 2 base composition with the proper decision making. It doesn't matter what your composition is really, 3 base > 2 base. Just played a game, I'm mid masters, and have a simple question. How do you beat mass raven/viking/bc??? I went for infestor corrputor, but hunter seeker missle combined with viking kiting made it impossible to break, and then the bc's just wrecked my life. Game finished with me having 12k more total resources than him, I feel like a baddie. Plz help <3 Have to give replay, it's more about the macro than the composition. You should have been expanding just everywhere. It has kind of hard to deal with HSM, it owns infestors and corruptors, but you should have been very aggressive at some point in the game to go and break him. okay...mid masters and how the hell do you deal with ebay block, I feel like taking another expo is suicide against hellions, and the fact that this was on metalopolis made it so much worse. I decided to just go for a baneling bust, but that didn't really work out...any suggestions? You panicked. Just remain calm, he sunk a ton of minerals into the ebay. I'm assuming your overlord you first make at 9 saw the scv down there (you DO leave on there to make sure no bunkers go up, right? If not, you keep a drone down there). I imagine what happened is that you went to plant the hatch, and he blocks it real quick with the bay. Just plant pool down, and use the drone to kill the building SCV. If he's good way complete (im not sure how that would happen unless he went like bay first or something, and went out at like 9 supply and REALLY killed his econ to do it), just make 6 lings to kill it when pool pops. If it's not far done, you can use a few drones. Don't panic though. T just wasted a LOT putting it down, more than you did by having a late expo. Just like with a cybercore +pylon block, just make a few extra lings than normal, kill it, move on. | ||
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