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On April 02 2012 08:55 KimJongChill wrote:
okay...mid masters and how the hell do you deal with ebay block, I feel like taking another expo is suicide against hellions, and the fact that this was on metalopolis made it so much worse. I decided to just go for a baneling bust, but that didn't really work out...any suggestions?
Send your 2nd overlord there and send a drone to attack the SCV before it can get the E-Bay to 99%, the sooner he has to pull it the better. You can go 14pool/14 gas or 15 pool ~20ish hatch (whenever you kill EBay with lings) from there and not be behind since he usually has to delay his barracks or orbital to get it down in time.
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Okay, so looks like from general feedback the best way to deal with e bay block is to gas pool and play it standard, I guess I panicked and was under the impression that hellions could make it to my expo before the creep would get up for a spine.
I've just always hated blocked expo games so much that I pretty stupidly (and very poorly executed lol) a bane bust >_>
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On April 02 2012 09:54 KimJongChill wrote:
Okay, so looks like from general feedback the best way to deal with e bay block is to gas pool and play it standard, I guess I panicked and was under the impression that hellions could make it to my expo before the creep would get up for a spine.
I've just always hated blocked expo games so much that I pretty stupidly (and very poorly executed lol) a bane bust >_>
Haha, yea. Just gotta remember that any and all block play (from any race) slows them down (sometimes a lot - depending on the style of block).
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I've been doing a few things different recently, I was wondering if anyone else felt the same:
1. Roach/Banerain/Infestor isn't worth it. I know, I used to be a HUGE proponent of this, but I've now moved 100% of my ZvPs to either:
A) Roach/Hydra - necessary for those blink or imortal/sentry timings, comes out quicker, better for cleaning up stargate/gateway 2 base pushes then using corruptors
B) Infestor - great turtle way to play (ill get more on this later) in conjunction with lots of spines, fast hive, and 100+ drones.
C) mutas- wow, awesome 'counter' to fast third play I feel, or colossi. Totally sidesteps the deathball. In conjunction with mass spines, you just use mutas to keep toss in his base and quickly go to bl/infestor
I feel that roach/banerain/infestor just comes out way too late, and when toss chronos his colossi a lot or goes double robo, it gets owned. It's still good when, for whatever reason, I went infestors, and then Toss gets a third up, but I sort of feel spining it up and then going broodlords is better. Maybe if toss goes for a fourth to abuse me spining up it wouldn't work as well.
2. ZvZ, when going hatch first, going double queen is way better than going defensive banes. I feel with defensive banes, your speed is SOO late, and it's such a coinflip because the opponent could either completely drone up, and you just made 8 banes to defend with, or he could be going mass ling, and then those 4-6 banes just aren't enough. tired of losing to idiots, tired of getting outdroned so easily, so quickly. Doesn't even matter if opponent goes 14/14, I feel with baneling you don't get enough.
But with 14h/15p/17g (or 15 g to be safe, i guess, I still do that out of habit), then going double queen +spine to defend, and then speed with first 100 gas, then baneling nest, you will have speed and banes by like 30 supply, whereas otherwise you dont finish speed until like 35-40+, and may get outdroned.
With double queen, you just get double queen + spine, speed, a few lings, then baneling nest with next 50 gas. Then you can drone up, no matter what all-in the opponent does, because you have banes to meet his push, AND you get speed quick enough that you can easily put pressure back on.
I always wondered like, everyone says "oh with hatch first you can be really offensive" but I was like... wtf? At best, I can coinflip, only make 4 defensive banes, and then rush speed, and if I don't die to just 1 inject's worth of lings, I will have less drones or less production and never be able to put on decent pressure. With double queen, you just get drones and queens and speed so quick, whereas with defensive banes, you usually have to delay queens for a long time, you never get speed for a long time, and you'll be lucky to get speed. It's just such a huge difference. The 10 seconds when you don't know if the opponent is making lings or drones with that scouting overlord can't be reliable enough for defensive bane style I feel, but with double queen, then speed, then bane nest, you have it all so smoothly.
I always avoided double queen because it doesnt work on TDA and XNC, so I felt it wasn't as 'stable' of a build and I should just practice with double bane instead to be better on any map. But XNC is removed, and everyone knows TDA is shit and to veto it. Tada.
3. The stephano style of play, as outlined in day9 #429 (first time I watched day9 since like more than a year back when I was bronze to silver), is SO damn strong. Just get 3 bases ZvT, open infestors+spines, then get up to 100+ drones, expand everywhere haphazardly, and just put a million spines in the middle of the base.
I always avoided going 'fast' hive, I always felt that in order to go hive, you HAVE to trade armies somehow with toss or else his 2-4 colossi army would own you. But with the stephano style, where you literally put 30+ spines in the middle of the map, you buy enough time. It's amazing how strong 10 infestors + 30 spines are. Some one tried to do this exact bust against me, I even forgot hive and greater spire for the longest time on accident. He put his colossi forward to snipe spines, and then I FG and spammed IT's all over his 8 double robo colossi, and rushed in my 30 roaches and killed them all! It was ridiculous! Then I have like 10+ corruptors to mop up the rest of the colossi too.
It's just crazy. If you watch day9 #429, you'll see just how strong stephano style is. He never goes mutas, just infestors, 100+ drones, masss spines, gets broodlords behind them. Anyone who pushes with colossi, he FG, spams IT, and snipes with corruptors and opponent has to back off.
I just got the hang of being really good with mutas, and then this infestor style in ZvP turns out to be so strong. Maybe it's map dependent - maps like Entombed with no air space are no go for mutas. But I dont see where infestors were be bad. I guess worse on maps where it's really really open... but then you just make 100+ drones and 40 spines aint no thing.
I don't know where I'm going with this, just a rant I guess. But I was wondering if anyone else felt the same, or maybe thought some of this is interesting. Maybe it should be a blog, I don't know. It's just what I'm learning recently, to great effectiveness. I've noticed a lot of pro zergs will go hydras or corruptors to kill off phoenix in early game ZvP stargate openers, then go into mutas, but this infestor style of stephano seems strong as hell.
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On April 02 2012 10:13 Belial88 wrote:
I've been doing a few things different recently, I was wondering if anyone else felt the same:
1. Roach/Banerain/Infestor isn't worth it. I know, I used to be a HUGE proponent of this, but I've now moved 100% of my ZvPs to either:
A) Roach/Hydra - necessary for those blink or imortal/sentry timings, comes out quicker, better for cleaning up stargate/gateway 2 base pushes then using corruptors
B) Infestor - great turtle way to play (ill get more on this later) in conjunction with lots of spines, fast hive, and 100+ drones.
C) mutas- wow, awesome 'counter' to fast third play I feel, or colossi. Totally sidesteps the deathball. In conjunction with mass spines, you just use mutas to keep toss in his base and quickly go to bl/infestor
I feel that roach/banerain/infestor just comes out way too late, and when toss chronos his colossi a lot or goes double robo, it gets owned. It's still good when, for whatever reason, I went infestors, and then Toss gets a third up, but I sort of feel spining it up and then going broodlords is better. Maybe if toss goes for a fourth to abuse me spining up it wouldn't work as well.
2. ZvZ, when going hatch first, going double queen is way better than going defensive banes. I feel with defensive banes, your speed is SOO late, and it's such a coinflip because the opponent could either completely drone up, and you just made 8 banes to defend with, or he could be going mass ling, and then those 4-6 banes just aren't enough. tired of losing to idiots, tired of getting outdroned so easily, so quickly. Doesn't even matter if opponent goes 14/14, I feel with baneling you don't get enough.
But with 14h/15p/17g (or 15 g to be safe, i guess, I still do that out of habit), then going double queen +spine to defend, and then speed with first 100 gas, then baneling nest, you will have speed and banes by like 30 supply, whereas otherwise you dont finish speed until like 35-40+, and may get outdroned.
With double queen, you just get double queen + spine, speed, a few lings, then baneling nest with next 50 gas. Then you can drone up, no matter what all-in the opponent does, because you have banes to meet his push, AND you get speed quick enough that you can easily put pressure back on.
I always wondered like, everyone says "oh with hatch first you can be really offensive" but I was like... wtf? At best, I can coinflip, only make 4 defensive banes, and then rush speed, and if I don't die to just 1 inject's worth of lings, I will have less drones or less production and never be able to put on decent pressure. With double queen, you just get drones and queens and speed so quick, whereas with defensive banes, you usually have to delay queens for a long time, you never get speed for a long time, and you'll be lucky to get speed. It's just such a huge difference. The 10 seconds when you don't know if the opponent is making lings or drones with that scouting overlord can't be reliable enough for defensive bane style I feel, but with double queen, then speed, then bane nest, you have it all so smoothly.
I always avoided double queen because it doesnt work on TDA and XNC, so I felt it wasn't as 'stable' of a build and I should just practice with double bane instead to be better on any map. But XNC is removed, and everyone knows TDA is shit and to veto it. Tada.
3. The stephano style of play, as outlined in day9 #429 (first time I watched day9 since like more than a year back when I was bronze to silver), is SO damn strong. Just get 3 bases ZvT, open infestors+spines, then get up to 100+ drones, expand everywhere haphazardly, and just put a million spines in the middle of the base.
I always avoided going 'fast' hive, I always felt that in order to go hive, you HAVE to trade armies somehow with toss or else his 2-4 colossi army would own you. But with the stephano style, where you literally put 30+ spines in the middle of the map, you buy enough time. It's amazing how strong 10 infestors + 30 spines are. Some one tried to do this exact bust against me, I even forgot hive and greater spire for the longest time on accident. He put his colossi forward to snipe spines, and then I FG and spammed IT's all over his 8 double robo colossi, and rushed in my 30 roaches and killed them all! It was ridiculous! Then I have like 10+ corruptors to mop up the rest of the colossi too.
It's just crazy. If you watch day9 #429, you'll see just how strong stephano style is. He never goes mutas, just infestors, 100+ drones, masss spines, gets broodlords behind them. Anyone who pushes with colossi, he FG, spams IT, and snipes with corruptors and opponent has to back off.
I just got the hang of being really good with mutas, and then this infestor style in ZvP turns out to be so strong. Maybe it's map dependent - maps like Entombed with no air space are no go for mutas. But I dont see where infestors were be bad. I guess worse on maps where it's really really open... but then you just make 100+ drones and 40 spines aint no thing.
I don't know where I'm going with this, just a rant I guess. But I was wondering if anyone else felt the same, or maybe thought some of this is interesting. Maybe it should be a blog, I don't know. It's just what I'm learning recently, to great effectiveness. I've noticed a lot of pro zergs will go hydras or corruptors to kill off phoenix in early game ZvP stargate openers, then go into mutas, but this infestor style of stephano seems strong as hell.
I guess I'll give my thoughts on the matters you covered, might as well.
1. I don't think bainrain has been a great idea for a while, protoss who micro the engagements correctly just kind make the zerg engagements look helpless.
Pretty much all of my ZvP has moved to 60 drone roach/ling to defend an allin/ deny a third, into muta/ling. I had linked a replay in response to what you had asked a couple pages ago, and the build I did in that rep is pretty much my standard.
Make roach/ling off of 3 gasses until you're sure of what they're doing.
If they're: 2base allinning, max on roach ling, crush allin.
Trying to take a third: add the rest of your geysers, make a spire, try to deny third with roach/ling, and transition into muta/ling. (a bit on the engagements, if you can't take down their army/third, focus as many sentries first as possible. the replacement gas means they're anti-muta tech will be significantly delayed.)
I disagree with your post on how roach/hydra is necessary to defend blink or immortal allins, low drone roach/ling can crush them pretty handily.
The drawback of course, is that you're low drone, but this is what makes the muta follow up so potent: mutas obviously cost a ton of gas, so even if you take all your geysers, the fact that you're low drone will have 0 effect on how many mutas you can get. This allows you to either keep pumping lings to attack third, or complete your drones saturation for the rest of the game and move on with your build.
I wouldn't do the latter unless you've already successfully denied the protoss third.
2. In zvz I go 15h/16p/17g, and I go double queen, 6 lings, 1 drone, baneling nest.
I don't save the gas for banes, I go speed straight after, and only make 2 banes right when the nest finishes.
I block ramp with queens, make drones from hatch in main, and lings from hatch in nat. Unless of course I see he is not expanding, in which case I make lings from everything.
I don't make a spine at all, and I don't have a problem holding any allin with that build, you have banes out in time, and plenty of lings.
Speed is fast enough that you can punish over-droning easily, and it's not an over-investment in defense, it's quite flexible.
3. I mentioned the style that I use in ZvP earlier, but I do mix this in occasionally as well.
If you scout early robo bay, you have to add in a spire faster than you're planning to go hive, as if he executes correctly, a fungal growth/ IT spam shouldn't be enough to stop his colossi from taking down your spine wall.
Fast hive builds are really, really good, and I wouldn't dream of playing any other style on a map such as shattered or entombed.
But as for a map such as korhal, I think that the roach/ling -> muta style is much more potent.
I don't have much to say in regards to this I guess, just that it relies a lot on maps, on some it's definitely the most logical choice, on others there are better options.
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On zvz 15 hatch defense - Don't you lose out on too many larva if you have your queens sitting at the ramp not injecting? At what point do you decide you can defend with lings.
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On April 02 2012 11:31 Bearwidme wrote:
On zvz 15 hatch defense - Don't you lose out on too many larva if you have your queens sitting at the ramp not injecting? At what point do you decide you can defend with lings.
It's play by ear, you can almost always afford to constantly inject your natural because it's so close, so unless he's already in the process of attacking you don't need to worry pulling 1 queen off for a couple seconds.
As far as pulling your main queen back I usually don't until I have my first banelings finished morphing.
If your ovie sees a stream of lings coming, don't worry about injecting, just keep them there. You'll be on at least even larva with him if he's doing either a 2hatch 1 queen or 1 hatch 1 queen allin. And if he can afford 2 queens your build should be at a place when you can pull your queens away because speed and banes are both available.
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On April 02 2012 10:13 Belial88 wrote:
I've been doing a few things different recently, I was wondering if anyone else felt the same:
1. Roach/Banerain/Infestor isn't worth it. I know, I used to be a HUGE proponent of this, but I've now moved 100% of my ZvPs to either:
A) Roach/Hydra - necessary for those blink or imortal/sentry timings, comes out quicker, better for cleaning up stargate/gateway 2 base pushes then using corruptors
B) Infestor - great turtle way to play (ill get more on this later) in conjunction with lots of spines, fast hive, and 100+ drones.
C) mutas- wow, awesome 'counter' to fast third play I feel, or colossi. Totally sidesteps the deathball. In conjunction with mass spines, you just use mutas to keep toss in his base and quickly go to bl/infestor
I feel that roach/banerain/infestor just comes out way too late, and when toss chronos his colossi a lot or goes double robo, it gets owned. It's still good when, for whatever reason, I went infestors, and then Toss gets a third up, but I sort of feel spining it up and then going broodlords is better. Maybe if toss goes for a fourth to abuse me spining up it wouldn't work as well.
I'm going to specifically address your notes on ZvP. If you are trying to play a bane rain type style, while opening roaches, you use gas way to early to get both drop and infestor at the same time. If bane rain is a style that you specifically enjoy playing, you should skip the roaches and go ling/bane/infestor. By this, I mean the style that Morrow specifically popularized and Dimaga has also been doing some lately.
In order to skip roaches vs FFE, I do something the lines of this -
14 pool
16 hatch
24 3rd
Gas immediately after planting third (should be ~4:30) game time.
The reason you are getting a single gas so early, is because you want to have speedlings sub 8 minutes to help deny proxy pylons, because 4 gate zealots can be a bitch to deal with while playing this style.
I continue to drone up like normal and get 2nd gas at ~ 6:30-6:45 game time. If you don't scout any type of commited ground aggression, plant double evo at ~7:15. At 7:00 if you scout now gas at toss natural/and or see lots of cyber forge chrono drop a baneling nest, and delay the evos to ~7:30.
While it can be touchy early game, and slightly less econ than your traditional gasless 3 hatch, it allows you a decent way to hold the possible shenanigans that toss can do. I specifically like doing this style because I feel it allows me to have a chance to outplay my opponent every game via multi-prong ling drop and bane drops on the mineral line, while at the same time going double melee upgrades and transitioning well into the late game.
For reference I am a High Master/GM zerg on NA.
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any ideas on efficient ways to handle marine/marauder/medivac? even with fast upgrades and pouring everything into ling/bling, I have trouble trading efficiently with pack after pack of MMM. marauders with medivac healing tank lings absurdly well. don't get me started on drops, i end up losing lots of lings because the banes don't keep up.
how have you guys been handling MMM? mutas to force more marines, and control medivac count? infestors? i feel that pure ling/bling is not cutting it.
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On April 02 2012 14:57 6xFPCs wrote:
any ideas on efficient ways to handle marine/marauder/medivac? even with fast upgrades and pouring everything into ling/bling, I have trouble trading efficiently with pack after pack of MMM. marauders with medivac healing tank lings absurdly well. don't get me started on drops, i end up losing lots of lings because the banes don't keep up.
how have you guys been handling MMM? mutas to force more marines, and control medivac count? infestors? i feel that pure ling/bling is not cutting it.
You should not be going pure ling/bane, you should be adding in infestors vs that composition to get medivacs when their grouped up. If your banelinsg are killing his marines, speedlings will roll through the marauders. You need a way to kill medivacs or you can just out right kill him if possible. You should not be losing to that though unless they have really good splitting as it's easily dealt with, with pure ling/bane if they dont' know how to micro very well.
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What do you guys think is the best response to the pylon and single cannon placed at the natural, as popularized by incontrol?
Is it better to just pull drones and expo or expo at third and kill with lings, or something entirely different?
In addition, how are you dealing with colossus pushes off of an ffe, which use warp prism to get abusive positioning (like on shattered temple on ramp above third) >,<
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On April 02 2012 15:33 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:57 6xFPCs wrote:
any ideas on efficient ways to handle marine/marauder/medivac? even with fast upgrades and pouring everything into ling/bling, I have trouble trading efficiently with pack after pack of MMM. marauders with medivac healing tank lings absurdly well. don't get me started on drops, i end up losing lots of lings because the banes don't keep up.
how have you guys been handling MMM? mutas to force more marines, and control medivac count? infestors? i feel that pure ling/bling is not cutting it. You should not be going pure ling/bane, you should be adding in infestors vs that composition to get medivacs when their grouped up. If your banelinsg are killing his marines, speedlings will roll through the marauders. You need a way to kill medivacs or you can just out right kill him if possible. You should not be losing to that though unless they have really good splitting as it's easily dealt with, with pure ling/bane if they dont' know how to micro very well.
Just to add one note to what blade said, creep spread can be often something that wins or loses the game for you vs a bio centric army whether you realize it or not.
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1. I don't think bainrain has been a great idea for a while, protoss who micro the engagements correctly just kind make the zerg engagements look helpless.
Pretty much all of my ZvP has moved to 60 drone roach/ling to defend an allin/ deny a third, into muta/ling. I had linked a replay in response to what you had asked a couple pages ago, and the build I did in that rep is pretty much my standard.
Make roach/ling off of 3 gasses until you're sure of what they're doing.
If they're: 2base allinning, max on roach ling, crush allin.
Trying to take a third: add the rest of your geysers, make a spire, try to deny third with roach/ling, and transition into muta/ling. (a bit on the engagements, if you can't take down their army/third, focus as many sentries first as possible. the replacement gas means they're anti-muta tech will be significantly delayed.)
It's not micro that prevented roach/banerain/infestor from being good - there's not much you can do to micro. You either blink the stalkers away, and then your colossi, sentries, zealots, and immortals get absolutely shredded, or you don't blink at all, in which case you get ruined as everything is clumped. If you go pure stalker, then I just FG+roach and win, don't even need to drop banes (although that adds even more).
The reason roach/banerain/infestor doesn't seem that good to me anymore, is because the tech time and cost is comparable to broodlords, and you need 4 bases. Like really, the choice is either 10 broodlords, or roach/banenrain/infestor.
The reason roach/banerain/infestor was so great though, was because it comes before Toss pushes out. Like in DRG vs Genius g1 daybreak finals, when you go straight to bl/infestor without trading armies, you will just die to the push. Roach/banerain/infestor solves this problem, because it just crushes such pushes, and you aren't vulnerable.
But so there's this huge timing between lair and GS, where you jsut don't have broodlords, and you die. Recently, there have been 2 ways to address this:
1. Mutas, to keep toss in his base, while you tech up to bl/infestor
2. Stephano style 100+ drones, mass 30+ spines. It's amazing how well 30 spines + infestors do, Toss has to put his colossi forward to siege, which leaves them vulnerable to FG+rushing forward, or a bunch of corruptors to snipe really quickly. If he just a-moves, the 30 spines really weakens his army by a lot, especially with FG added in, that you can handle the push.
It just seems either of those options are superior to roach/banerain/infestor. Roach/banerain/infestor also has a timing problem, 2 of them:
1. When Toss gets 4+ colossi, and you push too late (can happen if you took 3rd or 4th too late, or are a bit behind, or toss goes double robo quickly)
2. He pushes before banerain finishes (again, can happen if a bit behind or late on expos). This is a somewhat minor timing, but it can happen, I've had it happen many times, where Toss just pushes with maybe 2 colossi with an army that's heavier on anti-roach stuff (more immortals with a robo opening, lots of sentries maybe).
I disagree with your post on how roach/hydra is necessary to defend blink or immortal allins, low drone roach/ling can crush them pretty handily.
Really? Darkforce, blade5555 (blue high masters, df is pro player who beat idra at iem), and many others have posted here saying hydras is the only way to hold immortal/sentry.
But as for a map such as korhal, I think that the roach/ling -> muta style is much more potent.
I don't have much to say in regards to this I guess, just that it relies a lot on maps, on some it's definitely the most logical choice, on others there are better options.
Ah, interesting. So mass spines maybe better when one direct approach to bases like shakuras, entombed, while muta style better when there are multiple attack routes that are all very large.
On zvz 15 hatch defense - Don't you lose out on too many larva if you have your queens sitting at the ramp not injecting? At what point do you decide you can defend with lings.
The opponent is on 1 base, so no. As soon as your baneling nest pops, which is pretty much the first 50 or 150 gas depending if you get speed first or bane nest first, you can go back to injecting. I think 2 hatches is comparable to 1 hatch 1 queen anyways, and the benefits of having lots more economy outweigh it. The opponent just ends up so far behind for being on 1 base, he can't win if he doesn't expand, and if he expands, you just start droning hard.
I'm going to specifically address your notes on ZvP. If you are trying to play a bane rain type style, while opening roaches, you use gas way to early to get both drop and infestor at the same time. If bane rain is a style that you specifically enjoy playing, you should skip the roaches and go ling/bane/infestor. By this, I mean the style that Morrow specifically popularized and Dimaga has also been doing some lately.
I used to do this actually, I even made a guide about it, but it's no longer viable with NP being nerfed. A high colossi count is the 'counter' to such play, specifically double robo colossi production. Once Toss has 3+ colossi, it doesn't matter how many lings you have because they will get wrecked by the colossi. You just need to got roaches to cover for your infestors and add the killing blows.
The way I go roach/banerain/infestor is heavy roach/ling aggression early on, into ~150 infestation pit, and add on mostly lings aftewards (only need about 30 roaches when maxed). Then, at like 180-200/200, get bane nest, drop tech, morph all lings into banes, load up, attack. If your attack goes very well, remax on infestors and tech up quickly, if it doesn't, remax again on roach/banerain. You should only make like 4 infestors max when going this style (at first). Just need FG to hold in place, not necessarily for damage or IT or NP.
It's not really important what build order opener you do... it's kind of later into the game that you make the decision to go banerain.
The reason you are getting a single gas so early, is because you want to have speedlings sub 8 minutes to help deny proxy pylons, because 4 gate zealots can be a bitch to deal with while playing this style.
If toss is doing 4 gate pressure, you will notice he has no gas at his natural. You should be 'countering' such pressure by throwing down 6-6:30 roach warren instead. You can handle such pressure with slowlings though, although you need a lot, started at 6:00. You don't need speed, or super early gas, to deal with it.
But you are wayyyy better and more qualified than me. I sort of feel you need roaches to deal with gateway pressure though from FFE?
any ideas on efficient ways to handle marine/marauder/medivac? even with fast upgrades and pouring everything into ling/bling, I have trouble trading efficiently with pack after pack of MMM. marauders with medivac healing tank lings absurdly well. don't get me started on drops, i end up losing lots of lings because the banes don't keep up.
Mutas! Once you have a good flock of 15+ mutas, you completely nullify MMM. Basically, you see him going 2 base MMM 'all-in', so you pump lots of lings and not saturate your third you took. I like to get double evo if I notice him doing this, since upgrades are actually useful if he doesn't have mech units, but whatever. You just have to micro it, move command behind his army to get a surround quickly, and box over banes to make sure they dont hit marauders and micro them toward the marines. Move command them, not a-move.
You should be outproducing him with 3 hatch on 2 base, or 4 hatch on 3 base. Once you are safe enough to, the mutas come out, and just cleans him up. They just do so much damage, and he can't do anything about it because if he sits to fight the mutas, banes ruin him. Medivacs are the real heart of the problem. Marines are ezpz. Medivacs are strong as fuck. Need mutas.
And fuckton of creep spread. I always recommend a queen on creep duty in ZvT.
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In ZvZ, I`m always unsure when to make a roach warren and a third on how many gases (i open with 15 hatch and gas, so I usually make a bit off aggression, but then I dont know how to follow it up)
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^ Standard timing is ~40+ for evo chamber, ~50+ for roach warren.
Third timing:
If opponent doesn't make roaches, you can really take it as soon as you have map control. If he's going roaches (like standard 40 evo 50 roach warren or earlier), you should go either 2 base lair and take third when lair is like half done, or go third before lair on larger maps or if you are going to make roaches to cover it.
I'd say 'standard' ZvZ is just 40 evo and 2nd gas, 50 roach warren. You take a third first if larger map or if you have map control or if you know the opponent is going ~50 supply lair. You go lair yourself if unsure of opponent, or if opponent goes fast lair or has map control or lots of roaches or units. If he goes roaches, then go 2 base lair and take third after droning up 2 bases and making some roaches, if he goes mutas, you can either go third quickly since you know he won't have army. If he goes fast lair, you have to just drone up 2 base and go later ~50 supply lair, and either secure third with mutas or infestors with a stronger econ vs opponents mutas or infestors. There's no reason to really rush lair in zvz unless you are going mutas, it takes a long time for roach speed and 10 roaches with speed aren't that much better than 10 defending roaches without speed.
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Is there a solid way to punish a terran after he does the stupid 2 rax bunker push stuff (zvt)? Or do you just play normal and assume he's slighlty behind?
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On April 02 2012 18:22 Belial88 wrote:
Really? Darkforce, blade5555 (blue high masters, df is pro player who beat idra at iem), and many others have posted here saying hydras is the only way to hold immortal/sentry.
darkforce said roach/ling, blade said hydra, and the many others do not exist. i´m the one who asked the question there, so i know what answers i got^^.
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can anyone name/link me the BO for the fast 3rd with some roaches to defend strategy more and more Pros are using in ZvT?
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I've seen a lot of muta/ling/bling in ZvP lately and was wondering is it situtational as in depending on the opponents army or is it like a "general" counter build like ZvP has ling/bling/muta or infestor/ling. If it isnt, is it better than the standard roaches/corrupters?
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On April 02 2012 23:08 Zeon0 wrote:
can anyone name/link me the BO for the fast 3rd with some roaches to defend strategy more and more Pros are using in ZvT?
This is the one I do http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306582 Wrote it before people started doing this open roach and get third faster finally :D (very anyone misreads I am not saying I helped or made it popular in anyway just wanted to say I have been doing it before everyone realized it's not bad  ).
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EPT
