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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On March 31 2012 07:34 boppel wrote:
is "destinys unbeatable zvz build" still viable till diamon level? (not gonna hit masters i think)
Yes a 22-25 drone roach/ling allin can be effective at all levels, but don't do it with that God-awful opening that is demonstrated in the coaching video he did.
If you're going to do it I would do it off a hatchery first build, and get 3-4 roaches out before speed to be safe.
go up to 7-10 roaches, and pool lings right above your ramp.
Send your roaches first, when your ling speed is about 85% done, then send the lings when speed finishes, hopefully making your lings and roaches arrive at the same time.
Send your roaches in first, as you want them to snipe/absorb any banelings toward the front of his defense.
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On March 31 2012 07:34 boppel wrote:
is "destinys unbeatable zvz build" still viable till diamon level? (not gonna hit masters i think)
Most real builds are viable at almost every level. You see cheese and all-ins all the time, even in professional competitions, It's all about the execution. Also, answering that question might be easier if, you know, you provided any real information (like maybe a link to the build or something).
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On March 31 2012 07:40 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 07:34 boppel wrote:
is "destinys unbeatable zvz build" still viable till diamon level? (not gonna hit masters i think) To be honest that build really sucks. It used to be really good allin on maps like xelnaga that were really easy to allin on, but on modern maps one base roach openers are unbelievably bad. To crush that roach ling timing just play greedy early since he's just going 1 base roach and you threaten backstabs with speed zerglings, and then by the time he attacks you've got 10 more drones than him and a bunch more units because of it.
what build should i learn then for zvz?
ZvT and ZvP im going 14 pool 14 gas and 20/21 expand.. 100gas metabolic and next 100gas im going lair, then i decide what units i build based on enemys units, working great so far.
the only thing im lost is in ZvZ .. never thought that its so hard to play again since such a long break from s1 till now, was diamond in s1 and i want to go back there..
ZvT mainly ling/bling/mutalisk harras
ZvP mainly roach/ling, or roach hydra
thanks to the person under this post for the ZvZ build.. going too look into it:d
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On March 31 2012 07:34 boppel wrote:
is "destinys unbeatable zvz build" still viable till diamon level? (not gonna hit masters i think)
Is it the 1 base roach+speedling timing? Then yea, any properly timed attack can work zvz 
I think the +1 timing is a lot stronger though and a bit less all-in if you manage to kill some drones at the expo:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=228443
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On March 31 2012 07:44 boppel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 07:40 HyperionDreamer wrote:On March 31 2012 07:34 boppel wrote:
is "destinys unbeatable zvz build" still viable till diamon level? (not gonna hit masters i think) To be honest that build really sucks. It used to be really good allin on maps like xelnaga that were really easy to allin on, but on modern maps one base roach openers are unbelievably bad. To crush that roach ling timing just play greedy early since he's just going 1 base roach and you threaten backstabs with speed zerglings, and then by the time he attacks you've got 10 more drones than him and a bunch more units because of it. what build should i learn then for zvz? ZvT and ZvP im going 14 pool 14 gas and 20/21 expand.. 100gas metabolic and next 100gas im going lair, then i decide what units i build based on enemys units, working great so far. the only thing im lost is in ZvZ .. never thought that its so hard to play again since such a long break from s1 till now, was diamond in s1 and i want to go back there.. ZvT mainly ling/bling/mutalisk harras ZvP mainly roach/ling, or roach hydra
Your "14 pool 14 gas and 20/21 expand, 100gas metabolic" works well in zvz too. Follow up with banes or roaches and go by feal, you can't follow a strict long term BO in zvz.
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@KhAmun:
mhm first the replay is quite nice, thanks.
but i think the protoss overmade sentrys, his army was: 15 sentries, 4 stalker, 2 immos @11:20
i just compared to an opponent of me lately he had: 20 stalker, 2 sentries, 2 immos @11:20
i think both extremes are not good for toss, just imagine facing a proper army comp with 2 immo, 6 sentries, 14 stalkers
that´s a lot stronger imo, especially with perfect ffs. your opp ffed okish but for mass sentries it was rather bad ff i think.
not that i want to bash your replay or something, i just think it does not resolve the matter completely.
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On March 31 2012 07:49 Werezerg wrote:
@KhAmun:
mhm first the replay is quite nice, thanks.
but i think the protoss overmade sentrys, his army was: 15 sentries, 4 stalker, 2 immos @11:20
i just compared to an opponent of me lately he had: 20 stalker, 2 sentries, 2 immos @11:20
i think both extremes are not good for toss, just imagine facing a proper army comp with 2 immo, 6 sentries, 14 stalkers
that´s a lot stronger imo, especially with perfect ffs. your opp ffed okish but for mass sentries it was rather bad ff i think.
not that i want to bash your replay or something, i just think it does not resolve the matter completely.
I agree it wasn't a perfect execution by him, and he did overmake sentries, he should have probably only had 8 sentries, and a few more stalkers, but the second his last unit dies at my front, I have THIRTY roaches and 15 lings left, with more producing.
A slight difference in his unit composition and slightly better ff's would not have made a different of 30 roaches and 15 lings.
I posted the rep to demonstrate the proper drone/gas timings and counts to hold the allin, which I think the replay does perfectly.
I had 56 drones mining, which i believe to be the correct number to hold the allin.
Even it was more optimally executed by him, the fact that I crushed it as hard as I did probably suggests that's the correct execution of defense.
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How should I respond when Terran denies my 5 minute ovie with 8ish marines? This is assuming I'm on 2 base with 1 gas, ling speed and no lair, as is the usual case for me at 5.
Also, when should I be getting my mutas in ZvT? I normally get my lair around 30, dropping 2 more gas (total of 3) and getting my spire ASAP, then getting my bane nest while I wait for my spire.
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On March 31 2012 08:42 Glitch890 wrote:
How should I respond when Terran denies my 5 minute ovie with 8ish marines? This is assuming I'm on 2 base with 1 gas, ling speed and no lair, as is the usual case for me at 5.
Also, when should I be getting my mutas in ZvT? I normally get my lair around 30, dropping 2 more gas (total of 3) and getting my spire ASAP, then getting my bane nest while I wait for my spire.
First off, you don't need to sac an overlord at 5 minutes, anything happening then is scout-able by running a ling up his ramp. Sacrifice your overlord between 7:30-8:30
Second.. If a terran has 8 marines at 5 minutes, he's got a heavy bio play coming so get a bane nest.
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On March 31 2012 08:55 Fairchild wrote:
Second.. If a terran has 8 marines at 5 minutes, he's got a heavy bio play coming so get a bane nest.
Pretty much. I don't think you can even get 8 marines out of 1 rax that fast.
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What is the state of modern ZvT? I see that a lot of pros are going fast third queen and going infestors instead of mutas.
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On March 31 2012 13:29 XxJuicexX wrote:
What is the state of modern ZvT? I see that a lot of pros are going fast third queen and going infestors instead of mutas.
This... is virtually unanswerable. Fast 3rd queen is nothing new. Fast 4th, however, is (ish). Mutas are seemingly more and more out of date. The 'new style' is ling/infest with double evo. Nothing major has changed in the metagame, yet. Ling/Bling/Muta is still common and usable. Ling -> Infestor -> Ultra is the new trend.
Please have more than a 1 liner if you expect a good answer.
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My biggest problem by far is controlling my army late game. I am competent when it comes to getting the appropriate composition, but I utterly fall apart during engagements. I let my infestors die, my broodlords get picked off, etc. Is there a "secret" to control? For example--should I rely on my mouse control more than control groups? Should I utilize the shift command?
Thanks.
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How would you respond to nexus first protoss players? When you open with 15pool/15 hatch yourself. I can have 2 lings out well before the canons are up but it is very easy to fully wall a ramp by that time.
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On March 31 2012 14:41 RimJaynor wrote:
How would you respond to nexus first protoss players? When you open with 15pool/15 hatch yourself. I can have 2 lings out well before the canons are up but it is very easy to fully wall a ramp by that time.
If you know he's going for nex first you can 8-pool or something. But something like 15 nex/15 forge isn't punishable with a standard opening. If the drone scout isn't able to block the nexus it's not worth it imho.
EDIT: Clarification: The drone scout is not worth it.
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On March 31 2012 14:05 Mutalogist wrote:My biggest problem by far is controlling my army late game. I am competent when it comes to getting the appropriate composition, but I utterly fall apart during engagements. I let my infestors die, my broodlords get picked off, etc. Is there a "secret" to control? For example--should I rely on my mouse control more than control groups? Should I utilize the shift command? Thanks.
It can be an overwhelming sort of feeling. I'll try and best describe the steps I take.
Late game ZvT and ZvP is a very back and forth type of combat that is much less like the mid game: get into position/concave and attack, run if you're not doing good, don't get trapped, keep options open.
You have Broodlords, Corruptors, Infestors, and a lot of Lings with mixed in Banes.
against..
Marines, Tanks, Vikings, and a few Ghosts.
Your unit that is going to gain you grounds, and push the Terran Army back is your Broodlords.
Broodlords counter Tanks, and Marines at a distance.
Broodlords die to Vikings and Ghosts.
Curruptors kill the vikings but are kitable, short range, and melt to marines.
Infestors can FG and lock in place Vikings for Corruptors to stay in range.
Infestors can FG and lock in place Marines for Broodlings to nom on.
This is how I do it.
Broodlords and lings/banes on control group 1, they all serve the same purpose but the lings and banes stay back till the last moments.
With Broodlords being so large and easy to Ctrl Click, I grab the Broods, and A-move the Terran army. This puts a pressure on the terran and forces him to unsiege and run away or else he will slowly lose his army from the endless broodlings.
If Terran panics or thinks he has the positioning and numbers, he will bolt towards your broodlords and try to beat your army down in a direct engagement, thereby taking out the broods before their desired damage has time to accumulate. If this happens then press 1 and throw your whole ling/bling/broodlord army at him, ctrl click the banes ASAP and correct them from a-moving to simply moving past the army, in anticipation the marines will run, and you don't want them a-moving into tanks. Fungle Growth his marines, get them before they split if you can. Keep infestors not far, but not running towards the opponent. Your army is now moving as it should against Fungle Growthed marines and tanks. Immediately select your Corruptors and make sure you're engaging the vikings (which you should FG as well) and not strafing over patches of Marines, losing all of your Corruptors. Chain together your FG the best you can, and within 10 seconds the fight should be mostly over.
However most of the time Terran will simply unsiege and retreat.
With his Marines and Tanks on retreat, his Vikings will come forward and begin to gun down your broods, or Ghosts will step forward and chain snipe them.
Select your Infestors and FG the Vikings/Ghosts as best you can and without wasting too much time then-
Select your Corruptors and attack his undefended Vikings
His Marines will run back to defend the stuck vikings/ghosts, if he does not his vikings/ghosts are now dead and your Broodlords roam uncontested.
If he kites forward with his marines, most likely loosely split, FG the marines, if they get close enough to hurt your broods, move your broods away a short distance and resume firing. Maybe send in a chunk of lings to absorb the damage if you sense they are getting too close.
Overall you want to use the Broodlords for as long as possible as the only anti-ground weapon and water down his forces as much as possible using free Broodlings before sending in the rest of the Lings/Blings.
Use the infestors to FG anything that tries to get too close to the Broodlords, and move the Broodlords back a little if the marines/ghosts get too close. Use the Corruptors to shoot down Vikings so you don't have to spend as much to chain Fungle them to death.
The Lings/Blings are a big fat hammer you can only swing once, the Broodlords can weaken him down so your hammer can be that much more effective. The key is to not use the hammer for as long as possible while actively using your broods and infestors.
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On March 31 2012 14:41 RimJaynor wrote:
How would you respond to nexus first protoss players? When you open with 15pool/15 hatch yourself. I can have 2 lings out well before the canons are up but it is very easy to fully wall a ramp by that time.
I cannot stand nexus first; I have tried all manner of roach-ling builds to "punish" it, as well as early pools (obviously not the best idea, every toss pylon scouts). I feel that I am unable to reliably punish it once it has happened, and that taking a fast third to compete will, on some maps, leave you much too vulnerable to 2-base all-ins, or even just serious 2-base pressure into third base, because the econ will kick in much earlier (feels like 30 seconds earlier).
So I have taken to doing my best to prevent nexus first from happening in the first place.
I now 11 drone scout to deny it; I go 10 overlord, extractor trick to 11, then send the extractor drone out to scout. If at all possible, I will 16-17 proxy hatch to deny, too, as I would rather play a lower econ game on maps where the third is difficult to hold, or just force a second cannon or a probe pull on maps with distant natural ramps (i.e. antiga). If on a map where the one cannon will suffice, sometimes I will even let the hatch complete. Then I use the larvae at the proxy hatch to build lings (rallied away from cannon), try to get a queen out for a tumor (never happens, if they're smart), then use the broodlings that pop when the hatch dies to help the lings kill the cannon. The broodlings also give you a chance to sneak in the standard four lings that you can have waiting at the front.
I have also been known to, after his scout leaves my base, pull 4-5 drones and run across the map, reinforcing with lings, and tear down the cannon before it's done. This is a terrible option and can be stopped easily with a full wall, and definitely an all-in because well, 5 drones, but I mention this to demonstrate my unnatural hatred for nexus first (and cc first), and how far ahead I feel the protoss gets when they go nexus first--which I'm sure is what you're concerned about, too.
Please let me know if you've found any better options, especially responses to a nexus already started. I believe that proxy hatch as a preventative measure works best, no matter if you cancel into evo or let the hatch finish, but my problem is that good players will send two probes down and chase away your drone before you can place it.
EDIT: An errant comma.
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On March 31 2012 06:18 KhAmun wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 05:02 Belial88 wrote:
Does anyone have any pro examples where someone holds a sentry/immortal all-in? Since the viper isn't coming anytime soon, I was wondering how exactly players hold this. I mean I just every game, I know exactly what's up, I purely drone and make no lings, go up to 5 gas, lair, 60-65 drones asap, and go for hydras, but it never seems to work. Umm I don't have any pro vods specifically, but I think 65 drones is too many, the only success I've had holding well executed ones is 55-60 drones, roach/ling. I double gas at 40, lair first, and the timing works out to when your lair finishes you're at the proper drone number to hold 2base allins pretty easily. I have a rep of me holding it in high masters if you'd like.
I can't imagine you holding a high masters immortal/sentry all-in. Multiple high masters, including darkforce, have said that the only way to hold it is:
1. Hydras
2. Bait out multiple forcefields in the open before he engages you at a base/choke.
Many people have said it's impossible to hold with roach/ling only as well.
I know how to hold it, and I've held it a few times, but I've never seen a pro level game where a zerg held it. 55-60 drones sounds a little short too, that's like where you stop to hold plain 6 gate +1/7 gate all-ins. can't imagine just 55 drones being enough econ to get what you need to fight immortal/sentry.
I also can't imagine you holding 6 gate all-ins if you go lair blindly.
i just know 2 replays of stephano vs elfi uploaded on gosugamers, 1 game stephano looses due to overdroning, 1 game he smashes elfi, but he gained an advantage with an early ling runby.
Well that's not helpful. I mean, has a zerg pro never beat it before ><
is "destinys unbeatable zvz build" still viable till diamon level? (not gonna hit masters i think)
Anything is viable at diamond level. If you have good control, micro, and macro, you can pull off any build in diamond. It's a horrible build and the idea behind it is horrible. That said, it's diamond. Have fun.
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On March 31 2012 14:41 RimJaynor wrote:
How would you respond to nexus first protoss players? When you open with 15pool/15 hatch yourself. I can have 2 lings out well before the canons are up but it is very easy to fully wall a ramp by that time.
Well, you can slip a drone in when poking with your lings. use the money that would go to your 3rd for a proxy hatch (hidden).
Get gas and go to lair, and get burrow.
Make a queen and inject larva at the proxy. Make sure you have supply free (make overlords)
Make 5 roaches in his base with burrow micro he will not be able to kill them (no detection)
Spread creep in his base to be BM
Protoss can spot the proxy and the build still will work
Protoss may try to build a cannon next to the hatch. but you will still get roaches out before proxy dies if you have your timings right. Just snipe the cannon so he dose not have detection in this main.
Protoss may try to pull ~12 to 18 probes to kill the hatch wile it is building, In that case 12 probes that are off mining for 30 sec will lose `600 minerals of mining time. So, Just move a drone form your main to your 3rd's location. Cancel the proxy hatch at the last second and make a 3rd. Pull off gas, then start massing drone like normal knowing Protoss is a tiny more behind then you are. (but not by too much!) Also it throws off protoss. Some will still try to make building/tech/gas/units at the normal time and end up cutting a few probes with out knowing it
Or
There is no need to punish it, you can try to snip a probe or 2 with you lings @ his front and delay his wall by blocking with the lings.
good luck
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How should I respond when Terran denies my 5 minute ovie with 8ish marines? This is assuming I'm on 2 base with 1 gas, ling speed and no lair, as is the usual case for me at 5.
Then it's obvious terran has 2 raxes. If terran has 2 raxes, it means he has no factory or starport, and no gas (or more accurately, no possible tech). You can hold anything he throws at you with speed, 2-3 spines, or banelings. he's either expanding, or making more raxes.
The fact he hasn't pushed yet though, will 100% imply he's going mass 7 rax or something goofy like that.
Now, what is more likely, is you are exaggerating, and you just see 5+ marines. That's like 90% chance it's banshees, and 99% chance it's starport (so could be a marine drop).
If he has more than 3 marines, it means no hellions, since hellions and marines cost lots of minerals. If he has 3 or less marines (most notably, 2), it means hellions or your overlord gets into the base to see everything (2 marines won't kill it fast enough before it sees another building, double gases taken or not, or an expo taken or not, all of which will tell you 99% of the picture if you see any of those).
But generally, if you see about 5 marines, that's almost a dead ringer for banshees. You can 100% confirm things if it's a factory at the wall-in (hellions), or single rax (banshees, could be another ridiculously bad all-in like thor, but that's a joke and you can hold with just reactionary slowlings and spines when you see him arrive at your base).
It's too easy to scout terran these days. Your ling arrives at his ramp, and either sees a rax (mostly banshee play, or reaper expand), or factory (reactor hellion). Your overlord sac tells you everything else - if he exanded or not. If he expanded, you are completely safe to do whatever. If he didn't expand, sac an overlord. If he's going marauder/hellion, double fact hellion, the overlord sees. If he's going mass rax, overlord sees too many marines and ton of rax that he can't hide. If he's going banshees, 5+ marines kills it and rax at front.
Don't act like terran is so hard to scout. 8 marines should 100% tell you exactly what build he's doing. Mass rax, that's it. If it's more like 5 marines, and you are exaggerating, that'd really clue in to banshees (if he opened 2 rax, well, duh, that's where marines came from, and nothing will come anytime soon).
Also, when should I be getting my mutas in ZvT? I normally get my lair around 30, dropping 2 more gas (total of 3) and getting my spire ASAP, then getting my bane nest while I wait for my spire.
The sound of your post, I'm going to guess your lower level.
The biggest fault I see in lower level players, besides never making drones (a problem persistent in masters too, dont worry, even as a mid-masters I consistently never make units, I'm just more aware of it), is making lair wayyyy too early.
Watch pro ZvTs. You will *never* see any zerg get lair before 40 supply. Actually, scratch that. 50 supply. More like 55. I really wouldn't be surprised if it was 60 these days, or 70.
Getting lair at 30 supply just KILLS your econ. No wonder you can't produce as much and are having trouble. What are you going to do with a 30 supply lair? Make 5 mutas while only having 25 drones (5 in 2xqueen, ling)? That's terrible. 5 mutas take FOREVER to kill anything, including SCVs.
Seriously.
General BO for zerg is this:
hatch first
1 gas ~20-30
ling speed, 3rd queen for creep, 1-2 spines for hellions
~40-45 macro hatch (make this before taking extra gases)
After macro hatch (so about 45-50), take rest of gases, put drones back in gas in 1st geyser, evo chamber, bane nest
lair
Bane speed, +1 carapace, spire
You should only make more than 4 lings (4 made to deal with hellions around maybe 40 supply, if your 3 queens and 1 spine aren't enough, and your overlord scout saw terran expanded and isn't making marauders for marine/marauder push after expo and is rather making siege tanks or medivacs) after 50 supply.
Really, drone up to 60 (full 2 base saturation, or just a few drones short of 30 at each base), then take third and pump lings or drones, depending on if terran takes his third super fast or not.
You should be able to hold any 2 base pressure terran does while taking the third. The issue is that hellions deny you taking the third until you make lots of lings, but that kills your econ, so it forces zerg to go lair before third, and drone up 2 bases instead of taking 3rd. But once you drone up 2 bases, get lair, you make lings to push back hellions, take third. Then, you make lings, but the idea is you want to saturate your third as much as possible. If T goes super fast third, making lings fucks you over. If T goes for hard 2 base rine/tank push, you don't want to drone up third at all (just maynard workers).
But 30 lair? What gave you the idea to go 30 lair? You NEVER see ANYONE do that these days. It's horrible. There's no reason to make lair that fast. Ever. In any match up, really (and ZvT is the matchup you get the quickest lair, so if you get lair that fast in other matchups, that's even worse).
My biggest problem by far is controlling my army late game. I am competent when it comes to getting the appropriate composition, but I utterly fall apart during engagements. I let my infestors die, my broodlords get picked off, etc. Is there a "secret" to control? For example--should I rely on my mouse control more than control groups? Should I utilize the shift command?
Thanks.
1 ground army (if you even have any at this point in the game)
2 infestors (add some overseers eventually)
3 Broodlord/corruptor (add some overseers here too eventually)
4 Queens (great addition to lategame army, or injecting)
Please add me to your sig, thanking me for my awesome help.
How would you respond to nexus first protoss players? When you open with 15pool/15 hatch yourself. I can have 2 lings out well before the canons are up but it is very easy to fully wall a ramp by that time.
There's nothing you can do. It's a little cheesy to go nexus first, because it's autoloss to 6 pool. If it's really an issue, just 6 pool every toss, and the rest of the zerg community will thank you for sacrificing your ladder points to make sure Toss stays honest.
If you drone scout though (and I do), you can block it. Drone beats probe 1v1. On 2 player maps, toss never get nexus first against me, because I block their nexus with drone. An 18 nexus isn't really good.
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EPT
