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Masters Zerg here. I have been looking for a build / guide for this korean zvz style for some time but could not find anything on TL. There are for sure some great zvz guides - e.g. tang's guide "Rushing relentlessly".
However tangs build,14/14 bling allin's, 14/14 with expo, 9/10 pool with fast queen/ling or roach expands seems to be not the best or lets say standard as almost all GSL koreans open with FE defensive bling. When they open with FE they do not die which I find extremly difficult.
I can hold early pools with fe without problem as well as fe by opponent, but i struggle with bling all ins or early ling/speed or ling agression. If I do not die and opponent expos behind he has more drones.
Some ideas on the build
- 15 hatch
- 17 gas (depends on what opponent is doing, otherwise earlier pool is required)
- 16 pool
- 16-17 overlord
- speed + lings + spine (probably evo and 2nd spine if bling all in)
- 22-23 bling nest
- agression with ling bling for somt time or use them defensive, then get a few roaches (warrant at 28 - 35)
- drone and switch to muta or upgraded roach/hydra
I would like to create an own topic but my account is somewhat blocked. I am looking forward to gather thoughts on the korean zvz build style hoping that someone comes up with a precice build including timings and reactions to whatever opponent does.
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In ZvT I open up either 15H16P (on closer maps, 15H15P) or 14-Pool. The 14-Pool allows easy bunker rush defense, but unless the terran commits really early to mass marines, I normally can defend a bunker with 15H15P, too. But I am playing in Silver only. Could I play 15H in higher leagues, too, or should I rather go for 14P to avoid an autoloss versus very early pushes?
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Masters Zerg here.
I'm coming across more terran that are going mech builds vs the marine tanks + drops. I ALWAYS open 15 hatch 15 pool, and essentially cruise into the mid game. At least 44 drones by 6 min. I usually open with the ice fisher build, going double evo and 4 queens. Where I can hold the first push with just lings and banes. Its the next push that usually kills me. When a terran player goes mech. Its obviously a good transition for the terran player. But what should I be doing here? when i scout blue flame helions or just a massive amount of helions I always skip infestors and play muta ling bane. I find tho that if i don't do enough damage with the initial mutas i'm really far behind. Whats my best bet against mech play/helion tank thor, when i've already chosen the double evo ling/bane investor route?
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On March 29 2012 16:52 Werezerg wrote:
instead of wallin with a too fast macro hatch you should wallin with 2xevo +1/2spines + second+third queen. is easily enough on standard maps and you can time it in a way that you can use the evos for upgrades nearly immediately. usually i get away with 1 spine easily.
Except this only works if you lay down a tumor with your nat queen's first or second energy timing, otherwise your evo chambers won't make a tight wall because you won't have creep at the edge of the ramp (maps like entomb, shakuras, antiga). The macro hatch can be placed at the optimal location without creep and your nat queen can complete the walloff until your macro hatch creep allows you to reposition your spines.
Also, two evos + 3rd queen is 300 minerals anyway (and that's not counting the extra drone). Your evos also end up sitting there idle (there's no way you'll have enough gas to start your +1 +1 when they finish, since you're putting them down around 5 minute mark so you're ready for the 1st pair of hellions), while a macro hatch starts producing larva for you as soon as it's done.
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On March 29 2012 19:57 RimJaynor wrote:
Masters Zerg here.
I'm coming across more terran that are going mech builds vs the marine tanks + drops. I ALWAYS open 15 hatch 15 pool, and essentially cruise into the mid game. At least 44 drones by 6 min. I usually open with the ice fisher build, going double evo and 4 queens. Where I can hold the first push with just lings and banes. Its the next push that usually kills me. When a terran player goes mech. Its obviously a good transition for the terran player. But what should I be doing here? when i scout blue flame helions or just a massive amount of helions I always skip infestors and play muta ling bane. I find tho that if i don't do enough damage with the initial mutas i'm really far behind. Whats my best bet against mech play/helion tank thor, when i've already chosen the double evo ling/bane investor route?
Good question - I'm having a lot of the same problems. I simply am skipping mutas against mech play these days and putting that money towards a crapton of upgrades and faster infestors and hive tech. I recommend using multi pronged drops (bane drops are pretty fun to do still) and runbys to harass him as soon as he moves out to secure his third cc and thus his 5th and 6th gas.
While you're doing this, you're massing up tech units, spines, infestors, and hive. Don't forget burrow (this is nice if he sneaks hellions in) and roach speed (emergency roaches if he does a push before that scary 180 food timing). Even if you do no damage, you should be morphing brood lords off like 8+ gas by 15 minutes.
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On March 29 2012 20:35 kaliax wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 16:52 Werezerg wrote:
instead of wallin with a too fast macro hatch you should wallin with 2xevo +1/2spines + second+third queen. is easily enough on standard maps and you can time it in a way that you can use the evos for upgrades nearly immediately. usually i get away with 1 spine easily. Except this only works if you lay down a tumor with your nat queen's first or second energy timing, otherwise your evo chambers won't make a tight wall because you won't have creep at the edge of the ramp (maps like entomb, shakuras, antiga). The macro hatch can be placed at the optimal location without creep and your nat queen can complete the walloff until your macro hatch creep allows you to reposition your spines. Also, two evos + 3rd queen is 300 minerals anyway (and that's not counting the extra drone). Your evos also end up sitting there idle (there's no way you'll have enough gas to start your +1 +1 when they finish, since you're putting them down around 5 minute mark so you're ready for the 1st pair of hellions), while a macro hatch starts producing larva for you as soon as it's done.
the wallin may not be perfect on some maps with just 1 spine, but usually its enough to discourage running the helions in. if they do, you can block with a few lings there or whatever you should be able to trade fine. if you feel unsafe a second spine will make your wallin completely safe without extra creep. (i´m not sure for tal darim and entombed since i vetoed that maps)
2 evos and 3rd queen may cost some mins, but you need them all anyway. you could only build the evos a little bit later. but in my build i can use them like 10 secs later. i use the spanishiwa/icefisher build, so i get gas in rly fast for the upgrades. and remember it is enough to put the evos down like 10 seconds before the helions reach your base.
your wallin is probably a bit safer (depends on map) but it hurts your eco quite a lot. the hatch costs you 300 mins at a time you really need the mins for your eco. my evos are just 150 mins and i place them a bit later (34 supply or something).
furthermore your macro hatch will produce larva at a time where you simply cannot use the larva (except you do less injects more creeps). so it will not help you in any way. but of course that depends on your build, a ling/upgrade based build with late lair stuff is ok with a fast macro hatch, but i still think at 28 supply its too early. so it kind of forces you to play a ling heavy style with late lair.
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as a platinum zerg I have trouble with protoss pushes that come at the 8min mark with just loads of gateway units. Is it possible to rush lair + burrow and just put loads of banelings landmines on your ramp? My idea behind this is to punish protoss pushing without an observer. I'm pretty sure I'm not skilled enough to pull it off but would it work? You could almost bait them to come up your ramp by showing low number of lings and a spine on top of your ramp on shakuras for example
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On March 30 2012 04:07 arena_say_what wrote:
as a platinum zerg I have trouble with protoss pushes that come at the 8min mark with just loads of gateway units. Is it possible to rush lair + burrow and just put loads of banelings landmines on your ramp? My idea behind this is to punish protoss pushing without an observer. I'm pretty sure I'm not skilled enough to pull it off but would it work? You could almost bait them to come up your ramp by showing low number of lings and a spine on top of your ramp on shakuras for example
Are you on 2 or 3 bases at this point? If you're on 2 then you should have enough tech out (read: hydras) to easily hold. If you're on 3, then just hold it with mass roach ling ezpz. Make sure you hit your evo chamber timing at 7 minutes, otherwise if he gets voidrays it'll be tough to hold.
The cute bane micro roach burrow isn't needed, just work on macro in platinum and roll him over with having so many units.
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Hi, zerg plat here looking for help with ZvT, I feel a bit off and dont know what to do (when to tech up, take gasses, when to expect timing...)
Here's a replay where I failed miserably against a terran:
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)Repeat_vs_(Z)ZorgGG/18784
Thanks for anyone who help.
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If you have 20 larva, and make 10 roaches so you have ten larva and 10 eggs selected whats the easiest way to add the eggs to your roach control group?
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On March 30 2012 22:35 VaderZerg wrote:
If you have 20 larva, and make 10 roaches so you have ten larva and 10 eggs selected whats the easiest way to add the eggs to your roach control group?
Ctrl + Left-Click one of the eggs so you only have the eggs selected. Then hold Shift and press the hotkey for your Roach control group. This will add them to this group and whenever you right-click somewhere to move your Roaches, this will also be the rally point for the eggs.
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On March 29 2012 19:21 [F_]aths wrote:
In ZvT I open up either 15H16P (on closer maps, 15H15P) or 14-Pool. The 14-Pool allows easy bunker rush defense, but unless the terran commits really early to mass marines, I normally can defend a bunker with 15H15P, too. But I am playing in Silver only. Could I play 15H in higher leagues, too, or should I rather go for 14P to avoid an autoloss versus very early pushes?
In my experience, most if not all early common T pushes are easier to handle with hatch first because of the lowground creep. 15H then 15-17 pool zvt is absolutely the standard.
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On March 30 2012 22:20 ravEzi wrote:Hi, zerg plat here looking for help with ZvT, I feel a bit off and dont know what to do (when to tech up, take gasses, when to expect timing...) Here's a replay where I failed miserably against a terran: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)Repeat_vs_(Z)ZorgGG/18784Thanks for anyone who help.
Watched replay.
The time you spent microing that drone after it got into his base was useless. You're never going to kill an scv with a drone now that he has 4+ marines out, focus on macro.
Runby not worth it. You know he's expanded, why throw things away. Poke the front and then retreat, that's all you need.
8min, you scout 2rax with reactor, one rax with tech lab, one factory with tech lab, and then add three gas and start teching to lair... behind having expanded to your third, without having droned up. You're at 32 drones to 28, and he's muling. If he does a standard marine tank push, you may just die.
Stop running in with lings. You see stuff at the front, you drop back. You've lost 400ish minerals throwing lings around.
You cancel your infestation pit and restart as spire? Why? And why not wait 2 seconds until his scan is done? You can see the scan...
He pushes out. You have no baneling nest, your spire is just finishing, you're floating 1.1k gas, with no minerals to spare. His marines will be 1-1 soon, you have no upgrades started for lings.
Summary to this point: you went greedy econ and decided to tech, too. He scanned your spire just starting and pushed hard to kill you before your tech investment did anything. Without banelings, you had no way to combat the 1-1 marines. He overstims a bit and you eventually kill off his push, but only after losing your third really quickly. He is now even with you on bases, and roughly so with workers.
You then invest as much as you can into mutas, but your terrible mineral income, a result of your overeagerness in taking your gases (still at 1.1k gas), hampers you significantly. You pull workers out of gas, but it's the timing of the gases that messed up your three-base econ early.
He pushes again, you're still at 0-0 lings and no banelings, though upgrades have been started, at least.
15min, you engage as best you can, but he has so much stuff that you die. Still 1-1 marines vs 0-0 lings. Your mutas are 1-0 but... yeah doesn't help much now. You need banelings.
You kill the push eventually, similar to the first one (he overstims a little with no healing, no reinforcements). No significant damage, but his third is up (or should have been, he forgot to send another scv to build), and you are floating over 1k/1k because you've been on 2 hatch production for awhile.
1-1 finishes, but he's almost 2-2. I wouldn't be surprised if this same theme of lack of upgrades and barely holding off pushes keeps going until you mine out. Your natural is a little oversaturated, you should transfer some to your third. Luckily, he has no concept of proper worker distribution either, with a ton of workers in his main and few at his natural.
Finally banelings! But... no bane speed? And there's no creep... hm.
You lose a good amount (10+ drones) to the drops. You choose not to bring mutas home to deny, so he gets away, losing 8 marines total. He would have finished off the spire if he'd had any brains.
He has 26 idle workers for the next two minutes or so.
He sieges up in a good spot under your third, you have no creep or banespeed so your banelings content themselves to hit tanks. He has 22 marines with 8 medivacs with nearly full energy. Why aren't you morphing banelings? You have lings sitting at your rally.
GG.
Analysis: You need to work on macro, in terms of resource management. You took your gases really fast, without reason (i.e. you failed to use your gas early enough to justify the timing). You took a third quickly, then failed to saturate it. You scouted a ton of marines, yet made no banelings until something like 20 minutes in. Drops, whatever, you did ok, though I would suggest always pulling your mutas back (drops can do a lot more damage to you than the mutas can do damage to him).
Quick advice: Get banelings. Spread creep at least in front of your doorstep (or else tanks can siege up at your third). Drone up faster early on, then take gases later, after you have a good worker count (say, at least 16 on minerals at each of your three bases). Add a macro hatch if you lose your third.
Seems like you know this guy? If so, tell him to use his mules, and watch his worker distribution. Suggest to him the idea of building 2 supply depots at once, at least once he hits 100 supply, if not earlier.
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Does anyone have any pro examples where someone holds a sentry/immortal all-in? Since the viper isn't coming anytime soon, I was wondering how exactly players hold this. I mean I just every game, I know exactly what's up, I purely drone and make no lings, go up to 5 gas, lair, 60-65 drones asap, and go for hydras, but it never seems to work.
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On March 31 2012 05:02 Belial88 wrote:
Does anyone have any pro examples where someone holds a sentry/immortal all-in? Since the viper isn't coming anytime soon, I was wondering how exactly players hold this. I mean I just every game, I know exactly what's up, I purely drone and make no lings, go up to 5 gas, lair, 60-65 drones asap, and go for hydras, but it never seems to work.
I'd be interested to see this replay too, cause I've actually never held that push (not even once).
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On March 31 2012 05:02 Belial88 wrote:
Does anyone have any pro examples where someone holds a sentry/immortal all-in? Since the viper isn't coming anytime soon, I was wondering how exactly players hold this. I mean I just every game, I know exactly what's up, I purely drone and make no lings, go up to 5 gas, lair, 60-65 drones asap, and go for hydras, but it never seems to work.
Umm I don't have any pro vods specifically, but I think 65 drones is too many, the only success I've had holding well executed ones is 55-60 drones, roach/ling.
I double gas at 40, lair first, and the timing works out to when your lair finishes you're at the proper drone number to hold 2base allins pretty easily.
I have a rep of me holding it in high masters if you'd like.
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i think there are different variations of the immortal pushes. against the 3 gas immortal push you should get about 58 drones. against the 4 gas immortal push you should get around 63 drones. replays against that push would be great yeah^^.
i just know 2 replays of stephano vs elfi uploaded on gosugamers, 1 game stephano looses due to overdroning, 1 game he smashes elfi, but he gained an advantage with an early ling runby.
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http://drop.sc/148342
Well here is a pretty straightforward defense of an immortal sentry push.
I think he was trying to hide it by not getting an early forge upgrade, so he only has +1 when he attacks, but I beat it so convincingly I don't think it would have mattered.
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is "destinys unbeatable zvz build" still viable till diamon level? (not gonna hit masters i think)
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On March 31 2012 07:34 boppel wrote:
is "destinys unbeatable zvz build" still viable till diamon level? (not gonna hit masters i think)
To be honest that build really sucks. It used to be really good allin on maps like xelnaga that were really easy to allin on, but on modern maps one base roach openers are unbelievably bad.
To crush that roach ling timing just play greedy early since he's just going 1 base roach and you threaten backstabs with speed zerglings, and then by the time he attacks you've got 10 more drones than him and a bunch more units because of it.
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EPT
