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Mrvoodoochild1
United States1439 Posts
On March 25 2012 06:08 sewergoat wrote: Between a 15 pool 15 hatch and a 14 pool 16 hatch in zvp, which is better and why? Thanks! 14 pool/16 hatch just feels safer if the protoss is doing cannon cheese but the difference isn't really that big. | ||
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SgtJoKeR
Canada37 Posts
1- When should I get an early speedling timing, what match up? ( I heard some did the remove from gas when you have 100 gas trick) 2- When are the normal gas timing? When you want 3-4 queens? (I'd prefer 4 over 3 sometimes to have an awesome creep spread) 3- VS protoss when do you get your roach warren and evo? Is 7 minutes good like Day9 told us in one of his daily? 4- VS protoss the usual build is 14 pool 16 hatch 15 ol 15 queen ? 5- When you get a fast third vs protoss you get it close to your fast expo's end? 6- with the 14p 16h you make a queen then another after? send the first queen to expo and then on your fast third you send the first queen that has spawn larvae/or creeped the expo to the third while making a queen at the expo? 7- Moving backspace method to space? Good/bad? 8- VS terran 15 hatch 15 pool 15 gas? Do you get the gas or wait for later? Or do you need speedlings. 9- VS zerg , 2 builds if I'm right? 14 gas 14 pool and 15 hatch 15/14 pool 14/13 gas? | ||
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Vond
Sweden145 Posts
On March 28 2012 22:06 SgtJoKeR wrote: I have several questions here : 1- When should I get an early speedling timing, what match up? ( I heard some did the remove from gas when you have 100 gas trick) 2- When are the normal gas timing? When you want 3-4 queens? (I'd prefer 4 over 3 sometimes to have an awesome creep spread) 3- VS protoss when do you get your roach warren and evo? Is 7 minutes good like Day9 told us in one of his daily? 4- VS protoss the usual build is 14 pool 16 hatch 15 ol 15 queen ? 5- When you get a fast third vs protoss you get it close to your fast expo's end? 6- with the 14p 16h you make a queen then another after? send the first queen to expo and then on your fast third you send the first queen that has spawn larvae/or creeped the expo to the third while making a queen at the expo? 7- Moving backspace method to space? Good/bad? 8- VS terran 15 hatch 15 pool 15 gas? Do you get the gas or wait for later? Or do you need speedlings. 9- VS zerg , 2 builds if I'm right? 14 gas 14 pool and 15 hatch 15/14 pool 14/13 gas? 1. ZvZ you need speed relatively fast, as your opponent most likely will have it fast. vs P FFE you don't need it fast, and it's not really necessary early on vs T either. 2. I get gases at around 40-44supply in ZvP/T. In ZvZ it depend on build, but 14 to 17. 3. 7min is good, can delay til 7:30 but it's a tad more risky. I tend to drop both at 7:15 4. Most of the time I go 14p 16o 16h since toss will deny your hatch at natural. If you can drop it at 16 before ovie then go for it though, and yes in that case 15ovie 15queen 5. I drop my third at 24 supply (2nd queen started before I drop it). Just try to drop it between 4min and 4:30, but don't be TOO low on drones when dropping it. 6. I make first queen at 15, inject with it twice then send it to third. Start my second queen instantly when first one pops. When first queen reaches third I drop a tumor there to begin with since you want some creep around your third (most likely place for toss to attack) 7. Did the same when I used backspace method, worked nice. Personally use 55v66v77v method though so can't really comment on it much. 8. I've gone over to gasless expand vs T. 15h 17p (more drones available to deny bunkerharass than 15/15) and then take 2-3 gases at 40-44supply. Before this I went 15h/15-16p/17g and pulled 2 drones off when I had gas for speed, then let 1 drone mine til I had 100 for lair before saturating the gas again. 9. 15p/15g/17h ling-aggression works quite well. I mix that in, but standard for me is 15h/15p/17g > baneling nest before speed. | ||
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-KarakStarcraft-
United States258 Posts
I've been bouncing back and forth between opening hatch first into speedlings + a macro hatch into a quicker 3rd (trying to burn down the hellions with speedlings), hatch first into slings into lair before 3rd, hatch first into roaches 5:30-6:00 to take a 3rd into roach/infestor/ling, blah blah blah. Can't settle on something that is making me feel like it's a safe ladder build to transition into high eco infestor/ling to hive play. | ||
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ravEzi
Israel44 Posts
Here's a replay where I failed miserably against a terran: http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)Repeat_vs_(Z)ZorgGG/18784 Thanks for anyone who help. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On March 27 2012 06:52 lannisport wrote: I have a few questions for you ZvP specialists. I'm having a bit of trouble in the late game versus 3-3 stalkers. Maybe my upgrades are a little slow or my composition isn't so hot, or my mid game isn't aggressive enough but my lategame army is dying to highly upgraded stalkers with collosus support. I usually have about 12 BLs with 10 infestors and crackling support. At that point my BLs are 1-1 and I have fully upgraded ground upgrades. Should I be waiting until I have more BLs before moving out? Maybe 2-2? If I get blinked under I fungal and set out a few infested terrans, but the toss seems to reinforce his stalkers too quickly and I'll have half of my BLs already at yellow health by the time his reinforcements come. How should I be controlling the late game army vs toss? I always pre-emptively spread my BLs out and try to catch leading stalkers with FG. How many BLs should I be aiming for? Usually I see Stephano turtle until he has 18+. And now on how we get there, what is your general midgame goal and unit composition (Assuming they don't do some 2 base thing)? I know if they get an early third it's popular to just max at 12 minutes and do multiprong attacks but how do you know when to back off or when you've done enough damage? I've tried a few passive styles but I think denying or delaying that third and fourth is more important than superior upgrades or tech. And uh does anyone transition to mass infestor ling with a focus on harassing the third and his army or is that army just too fragile? If he's blinking underneath you then fungal, surround him with cracklings, and you'll literally roll everything he has. If you've actually got the army that you say in your post, you've pretty much won. | ||
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DruidzShift
Sweden71 Posts
In ZvP when the toss goes for FFE i usually do stephano roach style.And max around 12 min,Then go into mass muta. I do HUGE damage whit mutas and roaches,Killing probes and his third.But he always pushes out whit a deathball of many sentries,stalkers and 4 collosus,And i dies to it,I have around 30 mutas,And 30 roaches.And his push owns me. Anyone know what i should do to defend it? | ||
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Phlegmatic
United States18 Posts
On March 29 2012 04:48 TheNoob wrote: Hello,I have a problem In ZvP when the toss goes for FFE i usually do stephano roach style.And max around 12 min,Then go into mass muta. I do HUGE damage whit mutas and roaches,Killing probes and his third.But he always pushes out whit a deathball of many sentries,stalkers and 4 collosus,And i dies to it,I have around 30 mutas,And 30 roaches.And his push owns me. Anyone know what i should do to defend it? idk, I don't like the muta switch. They can just base trade and win since you really can't fight them head on. I think it's just a lot safer to tech in other directions | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On March 29 2012 04:48 TheNoob wrote: Hello,I have a problem In ZvP when the toss goes for FFE i usually do stephano roach style.And max around 12 min,Then go into mass muta. I do HUGE damage whit mutas and roaches,Killing probes and his third.But he always pushes out whit a deathball of many sentries,stalkers and 4 collosus,And i dies to it,I have around 30 mutas,And 30 roaches.And his push owns me. Anyone know what i should do to defend it? You should eventually be adding infestors/spines and try to trade armies not just economic damage. If you are losing a good amount of units, doing economic damage but not killing any toss units this will be why you will lose. You should be trying to do economic damage and trading armies if possible at all. If you can take out a good size of the protosses army you are in a good position (assuming you aren't all inning or something). Economic damage will be a nice bonus, but again economic damage is nice but wont' matter if you are losing units while protoss is losing nothing and his army will only be getting stronger. | ||
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Chinesewonder
Canada354 Posts
1. Meching terrans. I think it's just that I don't play this enough. But I can't seem to get the right composition up. I usually go roach and try to get some infestors, but my army feels so god damn weak. Also I have trouble with hellion harass even though I have like 6 spines per base. They just come in, roast a whole base worth of drones and lose like 5-6 hellions and run off. I do try to get broods asap, but sometimes I just die to their push. 2. Stargate protoss. I have trouble scouting first of all. 3-4 gas mean stargate play? It just seems to catch me off guard. Also I get 2-3 spores per base, yet somehow voids are able to poke in. I'm also not sure how to transition from here. B/c the voids and phoenix usually come at around 9-10 mins. I usually get some extra drones b/c I know the ground army will be weaker and get hydras. Is this correct? Thanks | ||
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
On March 29 2012 08:36 Chinesewonder wrote: Hey I've been having some problems with specific things. I'm mid masters and I have trouble with 1. Meching terrans. I think it's just that I don't play this enough. But I can't seem to get the right composition up. I usually go roach and try to get some infestors, but my army feels so god damn weak. Also I have trouble with hellion harass even though I have like 6 spines per base. They just come in, roast a whole base worth of drones and lose like 5-6 hellions and run off. I do try to get broods asap, but sometimes I just die to their push. 2. Stargate protoss. I have trouble scouting first of all. 3-4 gas mean stargate play? It just seems to catch me off guard. Also I get 2-3 spores per base, yet somehow voids are able to poke in. I'm also not sure how to transition from here. B/c the voids and phoenix usually come at around 9-10 mins. I usually get some extra drones b/c I know the ground army will be weaker and get hydras. Is this correct? Thanks Against Mech, the earlier you identify it the better. I normally play ling festor in ZvT, but upon scouting a build that looks like Mech, I'll cancel my melee upgrade, and just go mass upgraded roaches and attempt to deny the Terran 3rd at all costs. I've tried getting to the Brood/Festor comp, but normally I just die before then. 1 Stargate is typically just done off 2 gas, ie. the ones in the main, which you'll probably struggle to scout. Double stargate is the really tricky one, and signs of this are a REALLY fast 3rd and/or 4th gas. I'm kind of silly in my transition and go for mutas, as my transition, however this is after my 200/200 army has been knocking at their door. Normally I can get enough mutas fast enough, and catch their phoenix off guard so my mutas just reign supreme. A 'normal' transition would be to go for infestors, but it doesn't suite my ZvP play style. | ||
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kaliax
United States48 Posts
On March 29 2012 00:39 Karak wrote: What is everyone opening with in ZvT now assuming you are facing standard reactor hellion expand? I understand it can vary a bit map to map, but unlike ZvP, the ZvT openers I see out of pros seem to be all over the place. I've been bouncing back and forth between opening hatch first into speedlings + a macro hatch into a quicker 3rd (trying to burn down the hellions with speedlings), hatch first into slings into lair before 3rd, hatch first into roaches 5:30-6:00 to take a 3rd into roach/infestor/ling, blah blah blah. Can't settle on something that is making me feel like it's a safe ladder build to transition into high eco infestor/ling to hive play. 15h/16p is still standard. I personally drone to 28 supply (with two queens), then make a wall with a macro hatch and 2 spines, then get gas. On some maps you need to use your nat queen to put a tumor first so the spines can complete the wall off, but usually you can just complete the wall with the queen, and move up the spines once your macro hatch finishes. Fast speedlings aren't much use, since good hellion micro makes them extremely cost inefficient until you get your upgrades rolling (or you engage on creep, but good terran will deny tumors anyways). So it's pretty standard to delay your gas and focus on getting a solid defense against hellions. You really should not be losing _any_ drones to hellions by now, zerg are good at making walls now (obviously doesn't work on metalopolis, but I downvote that map anyways). | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I mean, I'm pulling my hair out right now because I have ST, TDA, and Antiga vetoed, but I still have to deal with fucking Entombed Valley. On Entombed, P can just do whatever the fuck they want - they can take a ridiculously greedy third behind 2 sentries, or they can do some ridiculous all-in like double stargate, immortal sentry, or blink 7 gate or even 6 gate, and if it fails just take their third and not be punished for all-inning. Not to mention the just ridiculous close spawn, which is close than steppes of war, and you expand towards T/P. But it's better than TDA cliff, and not being able to take a fast third vs FFE, or close spawn vs Terran where they siege cliff and you can never take a 5th base. Antiga, close spawn again, but this time T just puts siege tanks in their third/main and hits your main/third. I seriously wish Blizz would not put in the new maps (ohana and metro and daybreak or whatever) and jsut got rid of close spawns and put in neutral depots. So many playable maps if they just got rid of close spawn since day 1. | ||
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Andromedan
64 Posts
Currently a gold level zerg trying to work on my late game broodlord/infestor. I am trying to make ling infestor openings work in my ZvT, but I never know how many bases, how much gas, or how many infestors to have before teching to the broods. Even when I am able to get broods, I always seem to lose to large pushes, or losing my bases and being unable to resupply my army. http://drop.sc/145953 My questions are: 1. While opening ling infestor, when do I stop making infestors, and how do I use these to pressure the terran/keep me safe? 2. When do I start teching to broodlords? Once I have them, how can my control/keeping them alive be better? Any general comments on my macro, decision making, etc, is also very much appreciated. Thanks! | ||
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kaliax
United States48 Posts
On March 29 2012 13:26 Belial88 wrote: ^ how in the world do you downvote metal? It's an awesome map for Zerg, I'd say really the only zerg favored map right now (zvt is slightly T favored because of gold, but it's not a big deal and Z can abuse T with counterattack with that, and in ZvP zerg is grossly OP because you jsut take gold as your third and P can't do anything about it, and if he gateway expands just lol). I mean, I'm pulling my hair out right now because I have ST, TDA, and Antiga vetoed, but I still have to deal with fucking Entombed Valley. On Entombed, P can just do whatever the fuck they want - they can take a ridiculously greedy third behind 2 sentries, or they can do some ridiculous all-in like double stargate, immortal sentry, or blink 7 gate or even 6 gate, and if it fails just take their third and not be punished for all-inning. Not to mention the just ridiculous close spawn, which is close than steppes of war, and you expand towards T/P. But it's better than TDA cliff, and not being able to take a fast third vs FFE, or close spawn vs Terran where they siege cliff and you can never take a 5th base. Antiga, close spawn again, but this time T just puts siege tanks in their third/main and hits your main/third. I seriously wish Blizz would not put in the new maps (ohana and metro and daybreak or whatever) and jsut got rid of close spawns and put in neutral depots. So many playable maps if they just got rid of close spawn since day 1. I agree with you, and metal is really OP for ZvP, but I play a fast-upgrade infestor-ling style, which means I have pretty much no units to deal with hellion harass on a wide nat like metal. A lot of toss downvote metal anyways, so I rarely get to play that matchup there. I probably should just adjust my ZvT on metal. I'm just saying that the macro hatch 2 spine queen wall-off allows you to never lose drones to reactor hellion on all maps except metal. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
On March 29 2012 14:48 kaliax wrote: I agree with you, and metal is really OP for ZvP, but I play a fast-upgrade infestor-ling style, which means I have pretty much no units to deal with hellion harass on a wide nat like metal. A lot of toss downvote metal anyways, so I rarely get to play that matchup there. I probably should just adjust my ZvT on metal. I'm just saying that the macro hatch 2 spine queen wall-off allows you to never lose drones to reactor hellion on all maps except metal. If they build 6 or more hellions, just build more speedlings, if they don't try to go around for drones, be satisfied with no drone losses, and knowing that their siege tech is slightly delayed. If they do run in, flank with the lings, pulling drones behind the minerals to trap if necessary. tbh I just open roach, I think the guarantee of a faster third, and knowing you shouldn't take any drone losses is worth it. | ||
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Werezerg
Germany62 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
3 queens, 1 spine is enough on most maps. If it's wide open, 2 spines (i get 2 spines eventually anyways so I can push out creep, I plant tumor, reroot spines, then when it spreads, reroot again, then plant new tumor). Make 4 lings around 40 (if your first 2 still alive, just 2) so if they run up ramp or go behind mineral line they lose all hellions. If you are having trouble with hellions 2 evo, 2 spines, and 3 queens, that seems like a problem on your end. I have no idea how you not handle hellions with that much, if he tries to run past your queens and spines did enough damage that drones should kill them off easily. it's worth losing 8 drones to kill 6 hellions. | ||
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Bahamuth
134 Posts
-When should I get Evo/Roach Warren? -Do I stop mining gas in the early stages? -Should I get a second gas? -When should I cut drones? Thanks for the help | ||
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