|
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On April 06 2012 08:14 tehcaekftw wrote:
How am i supposed to beat Colossi/stalker/voidray? Mutas melt to stalkers, corrupters melt to mutas, hydras to .. all of it.
Tried both corrupter/hydra and simply mutalisks, neither worked.
There are certain compositions that are insanely hard to fight against. This would be one of them. The true secret to beating such a composition is to simply not let them get to that point. Just like if you leave a Zerg alone for too long, you are asking to get eating alive because he will have massed up so many units that its impossible to beat them. A very good example being 3 hatch before gas. If Protoss doesn't apply any pressure early on, and the Zerg is able/allowed to get good saturation on 3 bases, then the Protoss is in a very very bad spot, if not dead already.
(Sdienote: Never get hydras versus colossus, e.v.e.r. That is like massing lings vs. blue flame hellions. You are on your knees, basically begging to get killed.)
My previously analogy translates back to your predicament. You more or less can't let Protoss get to this state in the game. If you do, you better have at least 1 (if not 2-3) more bases than them, in which case you just beat them because your income is too strong to deal with. This is a pure late-game oriented composition, so you should be able to expand relatively freely in the mid game. Anyway, back to my point. You can't let toss do this. You should be harassing (with mutas, for example) and gathering plenty of map control and expansions. Protoss can't really prevent you from doing this. You can trade armies (often) in the mid game to prevent them from getting to the 'a-move deathball' state.
Lastly, if you are unable to prevent Protoss from accomplishing this godly ball of badassery, then I would recommend getting infestors. Fungal on stalkers and voids is very good, and it is decent on colossus. Not to mention that the voids are most likely going to be stacked somewhat on each other, AND stacked on top of the stalkers or colossus. Money fungals can do some serious damage to the ball. Back this up with some roaches for the colossus and stalkers, and (maybe) a small handful of corrupters to clean up weakened voids. Voids are good vs. corrupters, but not when you have weakened them heavily with fungal (and make sure to use corruption on the voids and colossus). You have to use all the tools at your disposal, and it requires some pretty good control.
Edit: Forgot to mention how strong roaches are vs. this as long as you can deal with the voids. Colossus and stalkers can be absolutely deadly vs. roaches, but their effectiveness drops off sharply if there aren't any sentries or immortals (and fungaled stalkers melt to roaches). Considering the composition, I think its relatively impossible to have a decent enough sentry count to hurt the roaches, assuming you engage in a remotely favorable way.
|
i can say that zvz is honestly my worst match up mainly because every zvz, for me anyway, it seems like players do these risky, coin flippy, all ins.
but my main problem right now is mutas. they annoy me and its so stupid to deal with. what should i do against a player that makes 12+ spines and then goes mutas? should i go infestor first or hydra first? i can defend my bases quite easily, but i find it difficult to take a 3rd at all because of how slow hydras are. and if i even attempt to move out i loose to stupid mass banling flanks on my hydras, and of course hydras dont have stim and are slow as shit so its kinda hard to spread my hydras out in time against speed banelings.
so what exactly should i do against a heavy turtle mutalisking player? it seems like i never have enough gas to get both hydras AND infestors on top of roaches just off of 2 base.
Aren't you Terran (your icon by your name, on your posts)?
There's not many all-ins zerg can really do against you, at the opening. If you go hatch first, double queen first + necessary lings to 'counter' the number of lings he pumps as soon as bane nest pops (if he keeps in gas and goes for banes, he can only get 4 lings, if he removes from gas, he can definitely get 6. So you really need to see if he keeps in gas or not, to see if you need to make lings right away when pool pops, and how many, or if you can make the spine first then lings). Then spine, don't inject and transfuse spine, then speed, then baneling nest and when bane nest finishes (or speed if you are confident), you can start macroing up because if he ever pushes out with mass lings from his base you'll see it with overlord in front of his ramp and you can morph reactive banes and make some lings and block the ramp (roaches is lol 2 spines and slow/speed lings).
TT mutas ZvZ
There are 2 muta builds in ZvZ, both very different, and 2 follow ups muta players can go.
1. Fast Lair muta (~30 supply lair). This is making lair before they even have more than 6 drones at the nat really. This should be obvious because he's taking more than 1 gas at like 30 supply, super early on, the mass spines, running a speedling in and seeing super fast lair before he can really get much out to deny ling run-in scouts.
This type of super fast lair WILL deny the third. However, he can't make many mutas, and as long as you see he's doing this, you will come out wayyyyyy ahead. Just stay on 2 base, drone very hard since he isn't making any roaches and 4 banes will crush any push he tries make (and even if he goes ling/bane, it will be very small since no gas due to lair and spire and etc). Get ~50 supply, normal timing lair. Defend with just queens (preferable over spores - it's bad if you have to reactively place spores, you should have 4 queens ready, but sometimes need spores, like by the gas, and you should time it so you plant the spore when his spire just finishes, or else it's too early and hurts your econ too much).
From there it's up to you what to do. If you go infestors, you give up too much map control I feel, and he can take a third and get back into the game really quickly. Don't ever make hydras to 'counter' muta play, because speedbanes rape them, and hydra+infestor will never come in time and 200/200 3 base ling/bane/muta will own 2 base 100/200 roach/hydra/infestor.
So. You can go lair, then mass speedroaches. He won't have enough mutas, and anything less than maybe 8 spines with ling support won't be enough (but if you are worried, you don't have to push, just deny his third with the sheer roach army and take your own third with queens and spores.
You can also go mutas yourself (my personal favorite in choice). Since your econ will be soooo much stronger, you will defend his 6 mutas with 2 spores or queens, and then push him back with an instant army of double the mutas he has, and just crush him. No way for him to really hold this, imo. You will just have such a huge lead, just make sure you get the gases early enough though.
2. 'Normal' Lair Muta
This is meant to take map control and take a fast third and defend against mass roach. You should be able to take your third with your extra queens that are pushing out creep. Take the more forward, aggressive expo, like mech terran does. Just get infestors asap, and then you are ahead. Don't drone up the third too hard, because a ling/bane/muta timing will own you since you have mass queen and infestor but no ground support and then 100 lings will rape you. So make sure to get roaches before droning up hard.
If he goes lair late enough (55+), you can also just take your third before lair, defend with lots of spores, take the 5th gas, and power up really hard, but if the opponent goes like 40-45 lair, he might get too many mutas too quickly for you to deal with.
Also, don't underestimate roach/ling all-in on 30 drones. He has to make at least like 6 spines and mass lings to deal with it.
You are probably having a lot of trouble because you make hydras. NEVER make hydras to 'counter' muta, only vs roaches. Speedbane just rapes them so hard, and if you attempt to get both roach tech, hydra tech, and infestor tech on 2 base, you give up complete map control and he can drone hard, then max out and just beat you in a battle with twice the supply really easily, especially with good micro.
so what exactly should i do against a heavy turtle mutalisking player? it seems like i never have enough gas to get both hydras AND infestors on top of roaches just off of 2 base.
Exactly.
If he doesn't rush lair, and goes more standard ~40+ lair timing, you can go 2 base infestor to 'counter' his muta play. It's a close game, and it will be decided purely on skill who comes out ahead - if he can harass well and force a ton of extra queens or delay your third long enough, or if you can make just the perfect, low number of queens necessary to defend. Eventually, the infestor player will have just like 10 high energy infestors, and if the muta player doesn't transition quick enough in a macro game to roach/infestor himself, he will lose.
However, you can also do a really strong roach/infestor/queen all-in from 2 base, against 2 base muta play. Your army will stomp his. He can base trade though, but if you put lots of spores in your base, and spines and banes or roaches, you should hold the counterattack long enough to stomp him. It's a really strong all-in against muta play.
Going later lair muta is always a good response to muta play. Generally, in muta vs muta games, whoever goes lair later (and defends the initial mutas sufficiently with not overmaking spores, and having spores in time, and not making them too early, but only when spire finishes, since the timing is that a spore will finish against arriving mutas if you make them just a little after spire pops), wins the game, due to sheer econ advantage. But it's not always an option, like if you took your extra gases too late, or made a lot of roaches early on.
How am i supposed to beat Colossi/stalker/voidray? Mutas melt to stalkers, corrupters melt to mutas, hydras to .. all of it.
Tried both corrupter/hydra and simply mutalisks, neither worked.
You don't.
You have to out play it.
1. Go mutas, force P to stay in his base so he can never move out. If he moves out with his slow deathball, you just completely win the base trade by running in a million lings and 20+ mutas. If he doesn't make enough blink stalkers and eventually HT tech, you can actually just own his stalkers (I think mutas win in like a 1.5:1 ratio against stalkers when in 15+ number). Tech up to BL when Toss starts to defend adequately.
2. Go 100+ drones, and make 40+ spines. Get infestors to handle mass gateway, then corruptors and fast hive, no roaches, just lings and mass spine. Stephano style, watch day9 #429.
Roach/Hydra/Corruptor isn't really seen as viable anymore. Roach/Hydra timings still exist to pressure Toss who open stargate, so they can transition into muta play though, but it's not about killing the colossi, it's about killing stalkers and air units so you can better transition into mutas.
|
Holy mother.... just played two Terrans who are GOLD... that can split their marines like a pro.
Um... GG I guess. Banelings become incredibly bad and infestors are the same.
Mass marines with a few tanks and good splitting? At GOLD?
Hot damn.
|
^ I'm 100% certain that he didn't split like you a pro, you just didn't micro at all. I'm also pretty sure he wasn't macro'ing well at all either.
People know these days you shouldn't be making pure baneling anymore, you just need a very small number of them. Speedlings actually rape marines without support (tanks or medivacs. medivacs are the real problem, without medivacs, marines are ezpz). If he has tanks, you should be focusing them with mutas in a shift command for each tank. You should also move command slightly past the opponents army, and you should box over the banes so they don't hit tanks, and then give them a new command by move commanding them towards the opponent. You really only need to split your banes once, just box them as the faster lings go in, and move command or right click a marine and then box again to split in half and send the other way.
If you post the rep I'd be happy to look at it. You really need to split your lings at the start of the battle. And easy way to do this is just box half of them and put them somewhere else, like a flank, and a-move them all so they arrive to battle roughly same time. A 3rd group, wayyy more better. Another easy thing to do, is before running in, patrol your ling/bane to split them. So if he's approaching from the east, patrol north/south, then move in eastward to him, with your units more spread the larger the patrol route.
Also, splitting really isn't that useful, relatively, especially in about mid-masters and below. What's really important, is to be focus firing the banelings with siege tanks. That's way more important than splitting. I don't think in gold he was splitting and focusing fire correctly. There's a right way to split, and a wrong way to split. He should have the majority of his marines firing if he's splitting properly.
|
Glad to see you have it all figured out. Thanks for the response.
|
Falcon, Belial can come off a little harshly in his posts to some people, but I find he's almost always helpful or doing his best to be helpful. Don't blow him off so quickly.
My (basic, embarassing, should know at my level) question: Are there "standard" ZvP gas / lair timings for going 2 base muta off a 14/16 vs FFE? (I have Tal'darim altar in mind specifically, as I don't like taking the out the way 3rds, and mutas are so nice on that map).
|
^ I didn't mean to be mean, but I guess it came off as a bit condescending. But in order to become a better player, you really need to be critical of yourself. Instead of you going "if I macro'd better, I would have had 40 extra lings that would have nullified even MKP level micro" or "if I had made less banes, I would have dealt with his splitting better since lings rape marines that are splitting" or "if i had focused the tanks with mutas, he could kite and split as much as he want he wouldn't have won" or "if I had droned my third up when I noticed he took a third and wasn't so afraid of his rine/tank push, I would have had way more" or "if I had split up my units before engaging instead of a-moving a big clump, I would have crushed him".
But if you go "wow this gold level player totally split like a code-s players, why does every gold level player I meet have code s micro?", then you will refuse to learn the game and analyze what went wrong, and you will just think that because this gold 'split well', or because it's obviously him 'abusing bullshit' instead of your shortcomings, then you will just think that gold level players might not be that far from diamond, or that you really aren't as bad as you think you are, and that you just need to 'figure out a few things and I'll be diamond ez". No. I'm mid-masters, and I know for sure, that if I played a high masters, they could troll the shit out of me and beat me with, say, a 4 gate, or a 7 rax, 10 times out of 10, because they are just that much better than me, and I suck that much. If you refuse to acknowledge your mistakes, you won't improve.
Until you really hit high-masters, every game you lose is definitely your fault, not the opponent just playing super well. He didn't abuse some imbalance (besides close spawn on some maps, what the fuck), or split really well. He just macro'd better and made the better decisions. Or you flew mutas over marines.
Plus, thinly veiled balance whines really get under my skin. I seriously that you lost to imbalance of marine micro, especially at gold level. That's just another excuse not to improve you game. I'm guilty of it too - I used to whine about colossi all the time. Then I realized - yea, colossi are fucking OP, duh. That's why you have really know what's going on. Toss isn't making some super strong deathball unit ezpz. What he's doing, is giving up mobility, stalkers, and the ability to do gateway pressure, for firepower. What this means, is that you can go mutas to abuse the lack of stalkers, or you can threaten lots of counterattacks to keep him in base while you tech up. It means you can tech up super fast AND drone up really hard, and when he pushes, make 40 spines with the 120 drones you had mining the last 5 minutes, to buy that extra 2 minutes for the mass broodlords to come out.
So post a rep, and let's see what's killing you. Or you can just stick your head in the sand. Just because I'm an ass, doesn't mean I'm not right here. You can learn from this. Or not. You obviously have a question if you made the post here. If you wanted to just get a bunch of "Yea, marine splitting IS fucking OP!", go to starcraft2.com.
My (basic, embarassing, should know at my level) question: Are there "standard" ZvP gas / lair timings for going 2 base muta off a 14/16 vs FFE? (I have Tal'darim altar in mind specifically, as I don't like taking the out the way 3rds, and mutas are so nice on that map).
I think like 40 is when you want to start lair. I find that when going 30 lair, your econ is just so dead that you can't make enough mutas. If you go like 50+ lair, you are kind of getting lair too late to really take advantage of that I HAVE MUTAS SUPER EARLY BITCH factor. 2 base muta is really good on that map. I think it's really the only build you can do that isn't all-in, but even then, 2 base muta is semi-all-in (if he goes blink all-in, which everyone does on that map, gg, although most people are too stupid to not back off and take a third and will derp into your mass spines).
|
ZvT masters level. Terran goes mech into skymech. I go ling infestor with superior upgrades, engage well a base ahead most of the game and I lose. Im in awe why I lost and I dont see what I couldve done differently.
http://drop.sc/154887
|
High master zerg here.
I've been having alot of trouble against protoss who dont go forge expand, like one gate expand.
Feels like i have no idea when to make units and when not to.
I usually go double gas at 6 vs ffe and 18gas vs 1gate. when should i keep mine gas and make my roach warren, feels like i always dies to gateway timings after 1gate expand since i know no timings against it -.-
|
On April 07 2012 04:49 HoBb3 wrote:
High master zerg here.
I've been having alot of trouble against protoss who dont go forge expand, like one gate expand.
Feels like i have no idea when to make units and when not to.
I usually go double gas at 6 vs ffe and 18gas vs 1gate. when should i keep mine gas and make my roach warren, feels like i always dies to gateway timings after 1gate expand since i know no timings against it -.-
It's an old thread, but then again, it's an old build. But, here it is from the Protoss perspective. Every time I see one gate expand or just anything that isn't FFE, it throws me off too.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296273
when should i keep mine gas and make my roach warren
Are you asking when you should keep mining gas? I think there's a typo or something lost in translation there. If you are on two base, I would recommend staying on (at least one) gas. Get ling speed first, and the remaining gas can/should be used on roaches/upgrades/lair/etc. But, then again, I might be answering a question you aren't actually asking.
Are you getting 2 based (as in an all-in)? Or just heavy pressure off 1/2 bases? Is it always just gateway timings? Are you trying, or able, to take a 3 before the attack comes?
Replays help. A ton. I'd personally rather have a one liner with a replay than a paragraph without a replay.
|
On April 07 2012 05:05 lwwkicker wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 04:49 HoBb3 wrote:
High master zerg here.
I've been having alot of trouble against protoss who dont go forge expand, like one gate expand.
Feels like i have no idea when to make units and when not to.
I usually go double gas at 6 vs ffe and 18gas vs 1gate. when should i keep mine gas and make my roach warren, feels like i always dies to gateway timings after 1gate expand since i know no timings against it -.- It's an old thread, but then again, it's an old build. But, here it is from the Protoss perspective. Every time I see one gate expand or just anything that isn't FFE, it throws me off too. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296273Are you asking when you should keep mining gas? I think there's a typo or something lost in translation there. If you are on two base, I would recommend staying on (at least one) gas. Get ling speed first, and the remaining gas can/should be used on roaches/upgrades/lair/etc. But, then again, I might be answering a question you aren't actually asking. Are you getting 2 based (as in an all-in)? Or just heavy pressure off 1/2 bases? Is it always just gateway timings? Are you trying, or able, to take a 3 before the attack comes? Replays help. A ton. I'd personally rather have a one liner with a replay than a paragraph without a replay.
I meant if i should continue mine gas after lingspeed and if not when to put drones back.
I am getting a third and and defending any incoming push with roach/ling with a fairly late lair (around 8min) i cant really scout anything exept the front with zerglings since i wont have any overlords in position to scout becaus i cant send them across the bas due to the earlier stalkers. So it feels like i never know what the toss is doing after 1gate exp untill my lair finishes.
|
On April 07 2012 05:21 HoBb3 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 05:05 lwwkicker wrote:On April 07 2012 04:49 HoBb3 wrote:
High master zerg here.
I've been having alot of trouble against protoss who dont go forge expand, like one gate expand.
Feels like i have no idea when to make units and when not to.
I usually go double gas at 6 vs ffe and 18gas vs 1gate. when should i keep mine gas and make my roach warren, feels like i always dies to gateway timings after 1gate expand since i know no timings against it -.- It's an old thread, but then again, it's an old build. But, here it is from the Protoss perspective. Every time I see one gate expand or just anything that isn't FFE, it throws me off too. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296273when should i keep mine gas and make my roach warren Are you asking when you should keep mining gas? I think there's a typo or something lost in translation there. If you are on two base, I would recommend staying on (at least one) gas. Get ling speed first, and the remaining gas can/should be used on roaches/upgrades/lair/etc. But, then again, I might be answering a question you aren't actually asking. Are you getting 2 based (as in an all-in)? Or just heavy pressure off 1/2 bases? Is it always just gateway timings? Are you trying, or able, to take a 3 before the attack comes? Replays help. A ton. I'd personally rather have a one liner with a replay than a paragraph without a replay. I meant if i should continue mine gas after lingspeed and if not when to put drones back. I am getting a third and and defending any incoming push with roach/ling with a fairly late lair (around 8min) i cant really scout anything exept the front with zerglings since i wont have any overlords in position to scout becaus i cant send them across the bas due to the earlier stalkers. So it feels like i never know what the toss is doing after 1gate exp untill my lair finishes.
8 minutes doesn't seem like a 'late' lair to me at all.
You should be sending your first overlord to their base when the game starts; meaning, you should also be able to sacrifice it for a scout later on. Most maps allow you to send a later overlord on a relatively safe route to their base in order to get a scout from that too. If you do a two-pronged scout (sending two overlords in at once - from different directions), its harder for him to deny you all the information. Also, if you see an opening, there is nothing wrong with also sacrificing a few lings to get a run-by scout. Harder to do, I know, but still possible sometimes. Maybe you can do both at once. Send the overlords in, and while he is busy attacking them, try to sneak a few lings in.
Whether you stay on gas or not depends on scouting info (which you have to get to respond properly). I would personally pull 1-2 workers from gas after ling speed, most of the time. When your roach warren goes down, make sure you you geyser is saturated, and if you are going to be pumping roaches from 2 base, you need to take a second gas when the RW is morphing. If you poke the front early on and see he is 1 gate expanding with almost pure sentry, you are safe from aggression for a while. You must get a solid scout off. Also, replays help!!!
I think your main (or only) problem against this build is lack of scouting information. That, and the fact that this build is much less common, so you have less experience against it.
|
I can never beat mech,
http://drop.sc/155008
My analysis : i felt like i rushed for broods too fast however people told me to rush for hive tech if i see 'mech' army incoming, i didnt have enough gas for many broods and i ended up making not upgraded lings cause i was low on gas, what should i of done in this situation? Just max on roaches and try to roll over him?
|
United States1201 Posts
Is there any actuall eficient way to counter a mass void ray build? Aside from just killing him before he gets the starports down, or mass spore.
|
On April 07 2012 08:34 Swampflare wrote:
Is there any actuall eficient way to counter a mass void ray build? Aside from just killing him before he gets the starports down, or mass spore.
It's super easy. Mutas. But you can't let Protoss get to an insane number of voids. If Toss has 10 or fewer voids (or so) mutas are insanely cost effective. Just make sure you focus fire down most of them.
|
On April 07 2012 08:34 Swampflare wrote:
Is there any actuall eficient way to counter a mass void ray build? Aside from just killing him before he gets the starports down, or mass spore.
As the poster above me stated, mutas are good if there aren't too many voids.
It's not a unit composition I see often and I'm only diamond, but vs. large numbers of VR's I have had success using pretty heavy infestor play. If you can catch them clumped up in a position where your infestors can stay out of range but still fungal, you basically win the game right there.
|
http://drop.sc/154887
Just going to post again hoping for some tips or something cause im in awe. Played a game of shakuras last night vs mech play. He got sky mech in the lategame, pinning me on four base since his army was much stronger. Got ultras in time for his push, gets crushed. Couldnt get broodlords in time to survive his push + he had vikings, thors and ravens. I dont know why I lost.
|
I'll check this out tonight Olsson, since I've been playing against a lot of hellion into mech now. Likely the reason you lost is that you threw away units and didn't make enough drones... I find that I mostly see the terran style on shakuras where they go mech and make a billion planetaries and turrets in the middle of the map and just sit there waiting for you to break against them.
Sky terran kind of sucks imo because fungal/np/corruptor wrecks it so hard. Ever NP'd a raven, cast like a bunch of PDD to protect your own corruptors vs viking? That's so fun.
edit: Thanks for your tips belial on my zvp - I went back through your macro benchmarks section of the fast third zvp thread and i found that my amount of drones was fcking abysmal. Since then I've been practicing it a lot, and been getting up to 65+ food by 8 minutes recently in my games.
|
Hyperion:
Oh I didnt realize you wanted more than 88 drones on 4 bases /sarcasm off.
It wasnt sky terran, it was sky mech. He had tanks, thors, banshees, vikings and ravens. The vikings would've wrecked any corruptors with Thor splash. The tanks would've killed infestors as they came in.
|
On April 08 2012 04:05 Olsson wrote:
Hyperion:
Oh I didnt realize you wanted more than 88 drones on 4 bases /sarcasm off.
It wasnt sky terran, it was sky mech. He had tanks, thors, banshees, vikings and ravens. The vikings would've wrecked any corruptors with Thor splash. The tanks would've killed infestors as they came in. I doubt you even watched my replay.
Note I said "I'll watch this tonight" and did some speculation. Chill out, you could have been like "actually I made a crapton of drones, it wasn't that."
And yeah sky mech is pretty annoying, I find whenever I engage it without broods to eat tank shots then I lose all my infestors and thats gg.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
