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First let me say I LOVE INFESTORS.
Now let me say I have been using them a great deal and have found that they are useless unless you have borrow and are using infested terrans on them. FG is sorta a nice little trick but I have yet to see it work to help my army signficatly. If someone could post a youtube or replay i would love to see it. I may not be microing well enough to get its full usage, but ultras with infested terran are great, you use the infested terran to kill air, and then use the unltras for everything else. Now this being said, I have yet to see a single instance where NP has been useful, infact I have never used it in a game and would love to see a good example of it being used. I am not saying the FG and NP are worthless but I havn't seen it work well ever. I use FG to uncloak units which is great but thats the only thing i've found useful. holding units at bay or FGing MMM ball never really works out for me.
I would love to be proven wrong here, because i love the infester, if someone can show me the light it would be great.
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On September 16 2010 03:21 Pfeff wrote:Your exact post: Show nested quote +SpaceYeti wrote:
Wait.....Collosi splash hurts friendly units!?
This doesn't seem right.
Pretty sure my response was justified
Obviously you read nothing beyond that post then.
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Good use of IT is so sexy against P.
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The range of Ht's is greater then infestors, realistically your not going to get any NP's against protoss because you'll get Ff'd.
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I am a noob, but using infestors versus early phoenix (which so many toss below high diamond love doing) is so much fun its ridiculous, of course really good toss will see my infestor a second before and try to dodge the fungal, but it is highly successful. If they actually lift my queen or a worker its pretty much gg for the phoenixes
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I think best way is to use vs. charge zealots and HTs.
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Well if you consider the fact that you need an infestor pit to get hive, getting infestor is not that much of an investment (just the unit cost). Their 2 basic spells have thei use against protoss, FG is very situational against protoss army, only for heavy Zealot vs hydra or air harassing.
Infested terran though is underused, it's still a good dps unit and harassment unit.
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On September 16 2010 04:11 Kikuichimonji wrote:
OP, your logic behind Fungal Growth being as efficient vs Protoss is flawed. A protoss ball will have fewer units than a terran one. Two marines will take twice the damage of 1 zealot. Therefore Protoss units will take less damage from the fungal growth simply because their units are more concentrated. This is the reason why protoss players are sometimes willing to cast storms on areas including their own units: they have fewer units to take the damage.
Fungal growth can be really good to restrict movement vs protoss but unless it's a large clump of protoss units the direct damage isn't as important.
:/
If you read my first post closely, I state something along the lines of "provided the balls are sizeable enough to absorb a full FG radius".
So, unit concentration is NOT higher in a terran ball. The cost is just lower. As I stated, explicitly, you get the exact same amount of damage, since the unit size is roughly equivalent for MM vs stalker/zeal. You are in fact getting more value for your FG, because you're freezing more money/time/power in one spot with a single spell.
The storm argument makes absolutely no sense. So you're saying if you only had 5 units, you would just storm them all and not care? Quite obviously, you have this backwards. The more spread out your units are, the less susceptible you are to storm. You're confusing the cost ratio to imply the size ratio. You don't fit double the marines in a fg than you do with zealots.
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On September 16 2010 05:37 rezoacken wrote:
Well if you consider the fact that you need an infestor pit to get hive, getting infestor is not that much of an investment (just the unit cost). Their 2 basic spells have thei use against protoss, FG is very situational against protoss army, only for heavy Zealot vs hydra or air harassing.
Infested terran though is underused, it's still a good dps unit and harassment unit.
exactly, you are going to be using hive tech one way or another as Z, infestors aren't really a huge investment (although i do generally get the +starting energy upgrade so they come out with FG)
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When I get home I am gonna try putting my overlords and infestors all in one group so overlords block them and see how effective NP is because it would make it pretty difficult for them to target them.
Has anyone tried this?
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Having the infestation pit really isn't a justification for making infestors.
Think about BW, if I'm not mistaken, queens are rarely used. Yet every game that goes on to hive tech involved the queen's nest being placed.
You need more than just "well I have the tech structure" to justify building a unit, especially one as expensive as Infestors.
I love infestors, don't get me wrong, but don't use "I have the pit" as an excuse or you're setting yourself up for weak play.
On September 16 2010 05:52 Chakin wrote:
When I get home I am gonna try putting my overlords and infestors all in one group so overlords block them and see how effective NP is because it would make it pretty difficult for them to target them.
Has anyone tried this?
Why don't you just burrow cast NP? I mean sure the overlords would also help, but burrowed NP is pretty effective and if your opponent is left without anymore splash damage you can just park your main army over the infestors.
On FG marines/marauders vs Zealots.
This is a weird comparison. Even if FG does the same total damage when you FG marines you set yourself up to reduce your enemy's damage output very rapidly (picking off wounded marines). When you FG marauders (and marines for that matter) you also prevent their very strong kiting game.When you FG zealots you can pick them off at range, that is true and handy, but it's still not the same or particularly practical unless the army is heavily skewed towards zealots. It also really requires you to have infestors + mass range which is gas prohibitive until later on.
Also you can't use infestors to stall vs Protoss like you can vs Terran. Shield regen means that stalling FG does 0 damage which sets you up poorly for the delayed battle.
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I'm theorycrafting here, but has anyone tried FG followed by NP vs colossus and gateway balls?
straight NP doesn't work because the toss focuses down your infestor, but if they're FGed, the stalkers can't get in range to focus, and your NPed colossus eats them. if they have blink, they blink into range and eat your NPing infestor...but then they've divided their army into the stalkers in front and the zels/colossi in back, and its still all immobile, so your ground army steps out of range of the colossi and eats the exposed stalkers,, then you can clean up his zels/colossi or just FG again and book it.
Its definately micro heavy, but would that work?
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If I see infestors and I have phoenixes I go for them before queens or drones because they're extra squishy. So I don't know how effective using infestors vs phoenixes will be because you'd have to react rather fast in order to not lose the infestor before it gets lifted.
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Infestors can be used for harassment against pure 4gates, and are pretty cool vs stargate, but are more or less useless vs templar or robo tech.
They can be cool vs colossi if you have also have corruptors, so you can lock either the stalkers or the colossi out of position... actually that seems really useful. So scratch that, infestors should be used in every matchup; I'm pretty sure you can never go wrong with 2 infestors.
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On September 16 2010 05:57 Logo wrote:
This is a weird comparison. Even if FG does the same total damage when you FG marines you set yourself up to reduce your enemy's damage output very rapidly (picking off wounded marines). When you FG marauders (and marines for that matter) you also prevent their very strong kiting game.When you FG zealots you can pick them off at range, that is true and handy, but it's still not the same or particularly practical unless the army is heavily skewed towards zealots. It also really requires you to have infestors + mass range which is gas prohibitive until later on.
Also you can't use infestors to stall vs Protoss like you can vs Terran. Shield regen means that stalling FG does 0 damage which sets you up poorly for the delayed battle.
Fungal growth is about the damage vs workers marines, zerglings, banelings.
All other times, fungal growth is NOT about the damage, say it with me, fungal growth is NOT about the damage, fungal growth is NOT about the damage. it's about FORCING the opponent out of position, exposing more surface area, preventing adequate focus firing, and forcing the enemy to commit his whole force to a losing fight instead of retreating or microing at all.
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On September 16 2010 06:11 MadBoat wrote:
I'm theorycrafting here, but has anyone tried FG followed by NP vs colossus and gateway balls?
straight NP doesn't work because the toss focuses down your infestor, but if they're FGed, the stalkers can't get in range to focus, and your NPed colossus eats them. if they have blink, they blink into range and eat your NPing infestor...but then they've divided their army into the stalkers in front and the zels/colossi in back, and its still all immobile, so your ground army steps out of range of the colossi and eats the exposed stalkers,, then you can clean up his zels/colossi or just FG again and book it.
Its definately micro heavy, but would that work?
It sounds really sexy. In 2v2s I always play a roach heavy NP build, but it would work in 1v1 as well. Work in speedlings to force colossi, and corruptors to punish them. Immortals are the biggest problem, but you can always NP them if they are light on colossi.
If you can get one or two contaminates on their robo bay, I think this would work really well. The biggest problem is before you have the Spire, you have to invest a LOT of gas just into the roach/infestor, so it's a bit hard to break out of that by the time you have to. The nice thing is a big ball of roaches really discourages forward blinks and keeps your infestors rather safe.
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Fungal is used way more often vs Terran since it roots MMM ball in place and allows an easier baneling use - with FG marines/marauders cant stim and kite blings under siege tank fire.
Banelings are pretty much useless in ZvP, so Fungal have less use as well. Infestors were ok vs P as long as neural parasite was worth it, atm its complete garbage.
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On September 16 2010 03:06 Pfeff wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:05 Roop wrote:
Infestors do not stop a phoenix army very well at all because of their movement speed against FG, their lack of clumping, and the ability to graviton beam your infestors. I had a P yesterday pick up my burrowed infestors with phoenixes and an observer. It hurts a lot.
NP them and kill the others...also if you're late enough in the game to have NP you should obv have an overseer with you to kill the observers...
I wonder if you have ever played starcraft in your life.
Please post several replays of you doing this versus competent players.
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On September 16 2010 02:20 Xynthos wrote:I am assuming you are strictly comparing Infestor versus protoss and terran bio balls and not any sort of zerg army composition other than infestor. Taken from : http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Fungal_GrowthFungal Growth also loses some of its harassment effectiveness in ZvP, because of the fast shield regeneration of Protoss units. Fungal Growth: Upon casting, an instant explosion spreads out and immobilizes all enemy units within the area of effect, dealing 36 damage over 8 seconds. Marine + Marauder: (45hp - 36) + (125hp - 36), no shields = waste medivac energy (if any) to heal units, discourages stim pack usage. Zealot + Stalker: (100hp/50shield - 36) + (80hp/80 shield - 36) = no health damage taken, shields regenerated
The most important aspect of FG is not the dmg but the battle control. With 2 FG, you can pin down zealots to tear them appart with Hydras/Roaches withouth taking any damage, and flank with your zerlings to commit them to start hurting sentrys, stalkers and immortals.
Its a tool that allows you to maximize the efectiveness of your army, and nullifies one of the protoss pressing point, the threat of the leading zealot force.
So ye, against protoss you do less effective dmg, but you negate more damage and movement. Stoping fleeing stalkers to get a ling surround is super effective.
I actually think it's a lot better than forcefield. Because with FF you say where you can't be, and with FG you decide where they stay. You have much more control over where and how the battle will develop.
"Also you can't use infestors to stall vs Protoss like you can vs Terran. Shield regen means that stalling FG does 0 damage which sets you up poorly for the delayed battle."
This. Vs terran you can whore off a Bio Ball. Vs protoss, you have to use it in battle to skew the outcome. If you have the upper hand, with FG, you will destroy the protoss army, whereas off creep it could get away with only a couple of strain units falling.
The usage of the skill is very different against both races, but it's still really effective.
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On September 16 2010 06:19 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 05:57 Logo wrote:
This is a weird comparison. Even if FG does the same total damage when you FG marines you set yourself up to reduce your enemy's damage output very rapidly (picking off wounded marines). When you FG marauders (and marines for that matter) you also prevent their very strong kiting game.When you FG zealots you can pick them off at range, that is true and handy, but it's still not the same or particularly practical unless the army is heavily skewed towards zealots. It also really requires you to have infestors + mass range which is gas prohibitive until later on.
Also you can't use infestors to stall vs Protoss like you can vs Terran. Shield regen means that stalling FG does 0 damage which sets you up poorly for the delayed battle. Fungal growth is about the damage vs workers marines, zerglings, banelings. All other times, fungal growth is NOT about the damage, say it with me, fungal growth is NOT about the damage, fungal growth is NOT about the damage. it's about FORCING the opponent out of position, exposing more surface area, preventing adequate focus firing, and forcing the enemy to commit his whole force to a losing fight instead of retreating or microing at all.
That reply seems completely tangential to anything I brought up (though it's all accurate). I only mentioned damage when talking about a) delay tactic which can be effective ZvT because it slows down a push's timing AND weakens the push (or outright kills parts of it). Since you aren't engaging for the duration of FG in this situation the positioning is not a factor b) vs marines.
Also saying dmg only matters vs those 3 units is wrong as at the very least it puts a serious dent into hellions and reapers.
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EPT
