Hi. I've been working on my zerg (~850) lately, and I'm wondering if anyone has any experience using infestors against protoss. We've all seen the strengths of infestors against bio ball because of how clumped their units can get, but I was examining the cost ratio and I realized that according to my math, I should be spamming FG on everything in every matchup. I haven't had much success NPing collossus, personally, mostly because for every 3 infestors only 1 ever seems to get it off, and 1 collossus out of his giant ball doesn't really make a difference.
I'm going to make a few big general assumptions (feel free to correct me if you think that invalidates my conclusion)
FG Damage comparison:
Assuming equal marine to marauder ratio = 55 hp + 125hp = 180hp Assuming equal zealot/stalker ratio = 150hp + 160hp = 310hp Terran cost = 50+100/25 = 150/25 Protoss cost = 100+125/50 = 225/50
Let's just say 1 gas = 2 minerals.
Terran hp/cost = 180/200 = 0.9 Protoss hp/cost = 310/325 = ~0.95 Since zealots and marines are the same size, and stalkers and marauders are the same size, splash should have a similar effect.
So then, my argument is as follows: If it is effective to damage marines/marauders with fungal growth, then it is similarly effective to damage protoss units, provided they each have enough units to absorb a full FG radius.
In terms of the root mechanic: zealots can't attack much when rooted. Marines can.
This should mean that FG is maybe even better against gateway balls than against bio balls?
And yet nobody ever does it. Can someone explain why?
People just don't like infestors. They're easily one of the best zerg units in the game. Besides rooting zealots like you mentioned, infestors are a welcome addition to a hydra ling force, as if the opponent goes collossi you can make them friendly fire on their own units for a little bit, or even better, if they go high templar you can fungal growth the group, then neural parasite the high templar to storm their own army. It basically kills all the zealots off and leaves the rest almost dead. 1 or 2 more fungals and their whole army is gone.
You can NP colossus and immortals. Fungal is all around decent to stop stalker/colossus micro or zealots. IT are like stimmed marines (better vs 1 armour targets in fact, assuming that have the same speed, I think they do, and they do 8 damage modified by ranged upgrades) and they basically substitute hydralisks they actually melt stalker/immortal its hilarious.
Fungal Growth: Upon casting, an instant explosion spreads out and immobilizes all enemy units within the area of effect, dealing 36 damage over 8 seconds.
Marine + Marauder: (45hp - 36) + (125hp - 36), no shields = waste medivac energy (if any) to heal units, discourages stim pack usage.
Zealot + Stalker: (100hp/50shield - 36) + (80hp/80 shield - 36) = no health damage taken, shields regenerated
On September 16 2010 02:14 TLOBrian wrote: People just don't like infestors. They're easily one of the best zerg units in the game. Besides rooting zealots like you mentioned, infestors are a welcome addition to a hydra ling force, as if the opponent goes collossi you can make them friendly fire on their own units for a little bit, or even better, if they go high templar you can fungal growth the group, then neural parasite the high templar to storm their own army. It basically kills all the zealots off and leaves the rest almost dead. 1 or 2 more fungals and their whole army is gone.
Unless I'm mistaken, stalkers can still blink under FG. However, a good FG can still be effective and chasing them down because, well, they still can't walk, and stalkers are FAST.
Fungal Growth also loses some of its harassment effectiveness in ZvP, because of the fast shield regeneration of Protoss units.
Exactly this. Fungal won't break a single protoss units sheild (besides the probe...). So unless you're planning on using the infestor just for when you're going for the kill on their army, fungal's damage defaults back to 0.
Stalkers can blink out of fungal, sort off. It just makes them be fungaled where they blinked too. they have to wait for it to wear off before they can walk again. I'm not sure if collosi can splash friendlies, but it doesn't sound right. I don't tend to use infestors outside of ZvT (and the odd ZvZ match). I guess they could be handy, but i tend to have more pressing needs for my gas
I agree they are great and underused. The reason I think they are not being used much is that they are perceived to be too slow off creep. I am personally trying to use them much more in every matchup. They are also great to hold back drops/ cloaked banshees/ VRs until you can get some defense up. you should check out Prince Xizor (NICE) he really emphasizes Infestor use
I don't like the regen shield argument. Thinking in this way we would conclude that EMP is also not useful.
A infestor can do several FG in the same ball, and it has a great range. And that thinking of it alone. Put some hydras and you'll kill the zealots and stalkers a lot quicker.
But seriously NP is the main use of the infestor. Infestors are useful vs. P if you have a lot of hydras because they counter zealots really well and then NP colossi. I would generally advise not using them unless you really feel like you could benefit from a few in a game as generally they aren't worth the investment.
I love to use infestors but I have to say vs Protoss they just don't seem that good. Stalkers can blink out, hard to get a good FG off against chargelots too. Gateway units aren't so weak as marines and regenerate without help. They would certainly help mixed in with a hydra army against a gateway army but hydras just clean that up anyway.
NP is a joke and anyone who lets you use it properly vs collossi is just bad.
Terran bio, ZvZ vs pretty much anything they are amazing, gamechanging units, maybe lategame harass or something vs toss but I dunno..I really struggle to use them well in this MU.
Ah....that makes more sense. I think it was the friendly fire bit that confused me.
Regarding NP on colossi:
I think FG is a better option TBH. It is extremely difficult to get a good NP off on a colossus/stalker/zealot army, and the amount of damage you actually inflict is usually not that great. However, with FG, you get guaranteed damage + immobilize their army, allowing you get get better positioning and/or delay a push a bit.
Question: How long does it take before protoss shield regen kicks in, and does it kick in during a FG or are they considered in combat?
On September 16 2010 02:47 SpaceYeti wrote: Ah....that makes more sense. I think it was the friendly fire bit that confused me.
Regarding NP on colossi:
I think FG is a better option TBH. It is extremely difficult to get a good NP off on a colossus/stalker/zealot army, and the amount of damage you actually inflict is usually not that great. However, with FG, you get guaranteed damage + immobilize their army, allowing you get get better positioning and/or delay a push a bit.
Question: How long does it take before protoss shield regen kicks in, and does it kick in during a FG or are they considered in combat?
The amount of damage you inflict is usually not that great?
Imagine how much damage a colossus does. Now not only is he not doing that, he's also dealing that damage to himself. Remember from roach wars ZvZ, 10 roachs vs 10 roaches is an even fight, but 11 roaches RAPES 9 roaches easy. Thats the same situation. Makes a bigger effect than you would think. A mathematical look: Taking a colossus not only causes a big change in DPS of both armies, but also HP. Fungal growth ONLY reduces HP by about 300ish, and its spread around so theres very little effect except for the immobilizing factor which you only need 1 or 2 to commit his whole army.
NP destroys quick tech Protoss builds because you can just NP that key tech unit when his army size is still really small I really like infestors though. FG in the ZvP matchup is used more as a control spell rather than a damage spell. If you get a good FG on his zealots/stalkers you can engage him at an angle that is very disadvantageous to him since his units won't be able to spread out into a concave and you'll get a near perfect surround.
NP on a collosus is really powerful. If it just attacks 3 times, that's 96*(however many units it hits) less damage it will deal to you, and that much more it will deal to him, creating a minimum of a ~400 HP difference (it will almost always hit AT LEAST 2 units)
As an avid proponent of infestors, I really would like to point out one thing.
You can fungal growth, THEN NP the collossus. This allows to to guarantee the aproach angle being safe from other units. If you use all three abilities you can pull the smaller things away from the collosi with an egg.
This is not how you win games, but its a great opener if you have them scouted. Infestors are never bad to have around.
On September 16 2010 02:14 TLOBrian wrote: People just don't like infestors. They're easily one of the best zerg units in the game. Besides rooting zealots like you mentioned, infestors are a welcome addition to a hydra ling force, as if the opponent goes collossi you can make them friendly fire on their own units for a little bit, or even better, if they go high templar you can fungal growth the group, then neural parasite the high templar to storm their own army. It basically kills all the zealots off and leaves the rest almost dead. 1 or 2 more fungals and their whole army is gone.
Wait.....Collosi splash hurts friendly units!?
This doesn't seem right.
Obviously this guy hasn't used Infestors before lmao...it's called NP bro, basically a sort of mind control
I recently fungal a group of zealot that were walking thought the ramp when i was attacking the expo, so all of his army was stuck behind. It's remind me of all those expends i've lost when i wasn't used to the "force feald on your ramp, you can't come here to defend nanana", i admit, i had kind of a nerdgasm to make a Toss feel that way. :p
I Love trying to use infestors whenever I can, but infestors serve a different role in ZvP.
FG should be used to keep units from running away from your hydralisks/infested terrans or to punish a zealot-heavy army.
NP is wonderful against smaller armies with immortals and colossi in the mix. Against larger armies the stalkers just pick off the infestors.
IT can be useful for general worker harassment, so not much changes there.
Infestors do not stop a phoenix army very well at all because of their movement speed against FG, their lack of clumping, and the ability to graviton beam your infestors. I had a P yesterday pick up my burrowed infestors with phoenixes and an observer. It hurts a lot.
Getting one or two in your army can definitely boost any army makeup, but they are weak against P in comparison to T or Z.
On September 16 2010 03:05 Roop wrote: Infestors do not stop a phoenix army very well at all because of their movement speed against FG, their lack of clumping, and the ability to graviton beam your infestors. I had a P yesterday pick up my burrowed infestors with phoenixes and an observer. It hurts a lot.
NP them and kill the others...also if you're late enough in the game to have NP you should obv have an overseer with you to kill the observers...
Good vs, (reason) Probe (damage) Zealot (keep them out of range) Stalker (allows easier surrounds) Sentry (damage from multiple fungals) HT (NP for storms, or to fungal groups of enemy units within a storm) DT (reveals the DTs, keeps them out of range) Observer (reveals the observer, Damage, keeps them from running) Collosus (can force collosus out of position for easy killing) Void Ray (can stall until charge is gone by keeping them still) Pheonix (no movement makes pheonixes alot weaker) Mothership (NP and win, reveal cloaked units)
all units except blink stalkers in certain situations (commits their force to an attack that you can defeat, prevents retreat unless a mothership is on the field.)
Most of the strength of infestors vs protoss especially comes from the positioning battle and not the damage battle. though revealing cloak isn't bad.
On September 16 2010 02:14 TLOBrian wrote: People just don't like infestors. They're easily one of the best zerg units in the game. Besides rooting zealots like you mentioned, infestors are a welcome addition to a hydra ling force, as if the opponent goes collossi you can make them friendly fire on their own units for a little bit, or even better, if they go high templar you can fungal growth the group, then neural parasite the high templar to storm their own army. It basically kills all the zealots off and leaves the rest almost dead. 1 or 2 more fungals and their whole army is gone.
Wait.....Collosi splash hurts friendly units!?
This doesn't seem right.
Obviously this guy hasn't used Infestors before lmao...it's called NP bro, basically a sort of mind control
Thanks for the snide remark. I have used Infestors plenty, AND NP'd a colossus several times. It was just the way it was worded, I thought he was talking about using infestors against colossi like you can vs tanks.
Also, reading is win.
@TLOBrian: Are you sure about the bypassing shields thing too? I would love if it worked this way, but for some reason I'm inclined to think not. Forgive my ignorance. The liquipedia entry seems to suggest otherwise. I'd test but I'm at work.
they don't bypass shields. they bypass shields if you use infestor ling, since the lings remove shields so fast. but yeah it doesn't go through shields, otherwise when i fungal archons they would auto-die.
Infestors don't work in practice. At least in the midgame. If the toss goes HTs he can just feedback your infestors. If he goes collusux your infestors will get sniped by his stalkers and he will use his FFs to split them apart from the rest of your army. I just don't see them being very viable vs toss.
On September 16 2010 03:28 Warrior Madness wrote: Infestors don't work in practice. At least in the midgame. If the toss goes HTs he can just feedback your infestors. If he goes collusux your infestors will get sniped by his stalkers and he will use his FFs to split them apart from the rest of your army. I just don't see them being very viable vs toss.
NP the HT's and storm them? Even if they move out, just waste the energy
On September 16 2010 03:28 Warrior Madness wrote: Infestors don't work in practice. At least in the midgame. If the toss goes HTs he can just feedback your infestors. If he goes collusux your infestors will get sniped by his stalkers and he will use his FFs to split them apart from the rest of your army. I just don't see them being very viable vs toss.
wait what?
it looks like you solely based this on theory instead of practice. As a player who consistantly uses infestors every game, they work. they take good control, and often have to be separate from your army anyway.
if he goes HTs you use burrow, flanking, ect to get your spells off, fungal growth has the same range as HTs and you are typically fungalling his army, so unless he keeps his HT in FRONT of his army he can't reach you. infestors also have a very good fast energy drain spell in Infested terran, spending all of your remaining energy instantly is great when it increases the dps of your army by alot.
If he goes collosus you fungal them from behind to keep them out of position and run in with lings to surround the scattered army. or use ultralisks or whatever.
if he goes sentry you burrow under the FFs, cast fungal with it's 9 range, or NP stuff since he just protected your infestors from himself.
really what you are saying is NP is not very effective in huge battled vs a player looking for it, and pretty much everyone can agree there, NP is most effective in small forces and for use on casters (like NPing a templar/ghost and storming/sniping twice/8 times right away, cancelling and running)
On September 16 2010 03:19 Raiden X wrote: I heard you can NP a Mothership
Yes you can, and you can then proceed to use its energy accordingly. =) You can even recall your own units into battle with their neural parasited mothership.
He was talking about reading the rest of the thread before posting so you could notice that someone already explained it to him and he acknowledged it.
It gets old reading the same thing over and over in these threads because people won't read all the way through before posting.
On September 16 2010 03:40 Ceedub wrote: It gets old reading the same thing over and over in these threads because people won't read all the way through before posting.
You're right, I'm not going to read 2 pages of replies to answer one question, but enough of this derailing
OP, your logic behind Fungal Growth being as efficient vs Protoss is flawed. A protoss ball will have fewer units than a terran one. Two marines will take twice the damage of 1 zealot. Therefore Protoss units will take less damage from the fungal growth simply because their units are more concentrated. This is the reason why protoss players are sometimes willing to cast storms on areas including their own units: they have fewer units to take the damage.
Fungal growth can be really good to restrict movement vs protoss but unless it's a large clump of protoss units the direct damage isn't as important.
Just my 2 cents but I think the main use of FG vs toss would be freezing the zealots (and possibly dt). If your zerg army can deal with the rest of the toss army freezing the zealots (dt) could be helpful.
On September 16 2010 03:28 Warrior Madness wrote: Infestors don't work in practice. At least in the midgame. If the toss goes HTs he can just feedback your infestors. If he goes collusux your infestors will get sniped by his stalkers and he will use his FFs to split them apart from the rest of your army. I just don't see them being very viable vs toss.
wait what?
it looks like you solely based this on theory instead of practice. As a player who consistantly uses infestors every game, they work. they take good control, and often have to be separate from your army anyway.
if he goes HTs you use burrow, flanking, ect to get your spells off, fungal growth has the same range as HTs and you are typically fungalling his army, so unless he keeps his HT in FRONT of his army he can't reach you. infestors also have a very good fast energy drain spell in Infested terran, spending all of your remaining energy instantly is great when it increases the dps of your army by alot.
If he goes collosus you fungal them from behind to keep them out of position and run in with lings to surround the scattered army. or use ultralisks or whatever.
if he goes sentry you burrow under the FFs, cast fungal with it's 9 range, or NP stuff since he just protected your infestors from himself.
really what you are saying is NP is not very effective in huge battled vs a player looking for it, and pretty much everyone can agree there, NP is most effective in small forces and for use on casters (like NPing a templar/ghost and storming/sniping twice/8 times right away, cancelling and running)
Do you have any replays versus good toss players (with good HT and army control)? How many infestors do you usually have and at what point in the game do you have them?
Now let me say I have been using them a great deal and have found that they are useless unless you have borrow and are using infested terrans on them. FG is sorta a nice little trick but I have yet to see it work to help my army signficatly. If someone could post a youtube or replay i would love to see it. I may not be microing well enough to get its full usage, but ultras with infested terran are great, you use the infested terran to kill air, and then use the unltras for everything else. Now this being said, I have yet to see a single instance where NP has been useful, infact I have never used it in a game and would love to see a good example of it being used. I am not saying the FG and NP are worthless but I havn't seen it work well ever. I use FG to uncloak units which is great but thats the only thing i've found useful. holding units at bay or FGing MMM ball never really works out for me.
I would love to be proven wrong here, because i love the infester, if someone can show me the light it would be great.
I am a noob, but using infestors versus early phoenix (which so many toss below high diamond love doing) is so much fun its ridiculous, of course really good toss will see my infestor a second before and try to dodge the fungal, but it is highly successful. If they actually lift my queen or a worker its pretty much gg for the phoenixes
Well if you consider the fact that you need an infestor pit to get hive, getting infestor is not that much of an investment (just the unit cost). Their 2 basic spells have thei use against protoss, FG is very situational against protoss army, only for heavy Zealot vs hydra or air harassing. Infested terran though is underused, it's still a good dps unit and harassment unit.
On September 16 2010 04:11 Kikuichimonji wrote: OP, your logic behind Fungal Growth being as efficient vs Protoss is flawed. A protoss ball will have fewer units than a terran one. Two marines will take twice the damage of 1 zealot. Therefore Protoss units will take less damage from the fungal growth simply because their units are more concentrated. This is the reason why protoss players are sometimes willing to cast storms on areas including their own units: they have fewer units to take the damage.
Fungal growth can be really good to restrict movement vs protoss but unless it's a large clump of protoss units the direct damage isn't as important.
:/
If you read my first post closely, I state something along the lines of "provided the balls are sizeable enough to absorb a full FG radius".
So, unit concentration is NOT higher in a terran ball. The cost is just lower. As I stated, explicitly, you get the exact same amount of damage, since the unit size is roughly equivalent for MM vs stalker/zeal. You are in fact getting more value for your FG, because you're freezing more money/time/power in one spot with a single spell.
The storm argument makes absolutely no sense. So you're saying if you only had 5 units, you would just storm them all and not care? Quite obviously, you have this backwards. The more spread out your units are, the less susceptible you are to storm. You're confusing the cost ratio to imply the size ratio. You don't fit double the marines in a fg than you do with zealots.
On September 16 2010 05:37 rezoacken wrote: Well if you consider the fact that you need an infestor pit to get hive, getting infestor is not that much of an investment (just the unit cost). Their 2 basic spells have thei use against protoss, FG is very situational against protoss army, only for heavy Zealot vs hydra or air harassing. Infested terran though is underused, it's still a good dps unit and harassment unit.
exactly, you are going to be using hive tech one way or another as Z, infestors aren't really a huge investment (although i do generally get the +starting energy upgrade so they come out with FG)
When I get home I am gonna try putting my overlords and infestors all in one group so overlords block them and see how effective NP is because it would make it pretty difficult for them to target them.
Having the infestation pit really isn't a justification for making infestors.
Think about BW, if I'm not mistaken, queens are rarely used. Yet every game that goes on to hive tech involved the queen's nest being placed.
You need more than just "well I have the tech structure" to justify building a unit, especially one as expensive as Infestors.
I love infestors, don't get me wrong, but don't use "I have the pit" as an excuse or you're setting yourself up for weak play.
On September 16 2010 05:52 Chakin wrote: When I get home I am gonna try putting my overlords and infestors all in one group so overlords block them and see how effective NP is because it would make it pretty difficult for them to target them.
Has anyone tried this?
Why don't you just burrow cast NP? I mean sure the overlords would also help, but burrowed NP is pretty effective and if your opponent is left without anymore splash damage you can just park your main army over the infestors.
On FG marines/marauders vs Zealots.
This is a weird comparison. Even if FG does the same total damage when you FG marines you set yourself up to reduce your enemy's damage output very rapidly (picking off wounded marines). When you FG marauders (and marines for that matter) you also prevent their very strong kiting game.When you FG zealots you can pick them off at range, that is true and handy, but it's still not the same or particularly practical unless the army is heavily skewed towards zealots. It also really requires you to have infestors + mass range which is gas prohibitive until later on.
Also you can't use infestors to stall vs Protoss like you can vs Terran. Shield regen means that stalling FG does 0 damage which sets you up poorly for the delayed battle.
I'm theorycrafting here, but has anyone tried FG followed by NP vs colossus and gateway balls?
straight NP doesn't work because the toss focuses down your infestor, but if they're FGed, the stalkers can't get in range to focus, and your NPed colossus eats them. if they have blink, they blink into range and eat your NPing infestor...but then they've divided their army into the stalkers in front and the zels/colossi in back, and its still all immobile, so your ground army steps out of range of the colossi and eats the exposed stalkers,, then you can clean up his zels/colossi or just FG again and book it.
If I see infestors and I have phoenixes I go for them before queens or drones because they're extra squishy. So I don't know how effective using infestors vs phoenixes will be because you'd have to react rather fast in order to not lose the infestor before it gets lifted.
Infestors can be used for harassment against pure 4gates, and are pretty cool vs stargate, but are more or less useless vs templar or robo tech.
They can be cool vs colossi if you have also have corruptors, so you can lock either the stalkers or the colossi out of position... actually that seems really useful. So scratch that, infestors should be used in every matchup; I'm pretty sure you can never go wrong with 2 infestors.
This is a weird comparison. Even if FG does the same total damage when you FG marines you set yourself up to reduce your enemy's damage output very rapidly (picking off wounded marines). When you FG marauders (and marines for that matter) you also prevent their very strong kiting game.When you FG zealots you can pick them off at range, that is true and handy, but it's still not the same or particularly practical unless the army is heavily skewed towards zealots. It also really requires you to have infestors + mass range which is gas prohibitive until later on.
Also you can't use infestors to stall vs Protoss like you can vs Terran. Shield regen means that stalling FG does 0 damage which sets you up poorly for the delayed battle.
Fungal growth is about the damage vs workers marines, zerglings, banelings.
All other times, fungal growth is NOT about the damage, say it with me, fungal growth is NOT about the damage, fungal growth is NOT about the damage. it's about FORCING the opponent out of position, exposing more surface area, preventing adequate focus firing, and forcing the enemy to commit his whole force to a losing fight instead of retreating or microing at all.
On September 16 2010 06:11 MadBoat wrote: I'm theorycrafting here, but has anyone tried FG followed by NP vs colossus and gateway balls?
straight NP doesn't work because the toss focuses down your infestor, but if they're FGed, the stalkers can't get in range to focus, and your NPed colossus eats them. if they have blink, they blink into range and eat your NPing infestor...but then they've divided their army into the stalkers in front and the zels/colossi in back, and its still all immobile, so your ground army steps out of range of the colossi and eats the exposed stalkers,, then you can clean up his zels/colossi or just FG again and book it.
Its definately micro heavy, but would that work?
It sounds really sexy. In 2v2s I always play a roach heavy NP build, but it would work in 1v1 as well. Work in speedlings to force colossi, and corruptors to punish them. Immortals are the biggest problem, but you can always NP them if they are light on colossi.
If you can get one or two contaminates on their robo bay, I think this would work really well. The biggest problem is before you have the Spire, you have to invest a LOT of gas just into the roach/infestor, so it's a bit hard to break out of that by the time you have to. The nice thing is a big ball of roaches really discourages forward blinks and keeps your infestors rather safe.
Fungal is used way more often vs Terran since it roots MMM ball in place and allows an easier baneling use - with FG marines/marauders cant stim and kite blings under siege tank fire.
Banelings are pretty much useless in ZvP, so Fungal have less use as well. Infestors were ok vs P as long as neural parasite was worth it, atm its complete garbage.
On September 16 2010 03:05 Roop wrote: Infestors do not stop a phoenix army very well at all because of their movement speed against FG, their lack of clumping, and the ability to graviton beam your infestors. I had a P yesterday pick up my burrowed infestors with phoenixes and an observer. It hurts a lot.
NP them and kill the others...also if you're late enough in the game to have NP you should obv have an overseer with you to kill the observers...
I wonder if you have ever played starcraft in your life.
Please post several replays of you doing this versus competent players.
On September 16 2010 02:20 Xynthos wrote: I am assuming you are strictly comparing Infestor versus protoss and terran bio balls and not any sort of zerg army composition other than infestor.
Fungal Growth: Upon casting, an instant explosion spreads out and immobilizes all enemy units within the area of effect, dealing 36 damage over 8 seconds.
Marine + Marauder: (45hp - 36) + (125hp - 36), no shields = waste medivac energy (if any) to heal units, discourages stim pack usage.
Zealot + Stalker: (100hp/50shield - 36) + (80hp/80 shield - 36) = no health damage taken, shields regenerated
The most important aspect of FG is not the dmg but the battle control. With 2 FG, you can pin down zealots to tear them appart with Hydras/Roaches withouth taking any damage, and flank with your zerlings to commit them to start hurting sentrys, stalkers and immortals.
Its a tool that allows you to maximize the efectiveness of your army, and nullifies one of the protoss pressing point, the threat of the leading zealot force.
So ye, against protoss you do less effective dmg, but you negate more damage and movement. Stoping fleeing stalkers to get a ling surround is super effective.
I actually think it's a lot better than forcefield. Because with FF you say where you can't be, and with FG you decide where they stay. You have much more control over where and how the battle will develop.
"Also you can't use infestors to stall vs Protoss like you can vs Terran. Shield regen means that stalling FG does 0 damage which sets you up poorly for the delayed battle."
This. Vs terran you can whore off a Bio Ball. Vs protoss, you have to use it in battle to skew the outcome. If you have the upper hand, with FG, you will destroy the protoss army, whereas off creep it could get away with only a couple of strain units falling.
The usage of the skill is very different against both races, but it's still really effective.
This is a weird comparison. Even if FG does the same total damage when you FG marines you set yourself up to reduce your enemy's damage output very rapidly (picking off wounded marines). When you FG marauders (and marines for that matter) you also prevent their very strong kiting game.When you FG zealots you can pick them off at range, that is true and handy, but it's still not the same or particularly practical unless the army is heavily skewed towards zealots. It also really requires you to have infestors + mass range which is gas prohibitive until later on.
Also you can't use infestors to stall vs Protoss like you can vs Terran. Shield regen means that stalling FG does 0 damage which sets you up poorly for the delayed battle.
Fungal growth is about the damage vs workers marines, zerglings, banelings.
All other times, fungal growth is NOT about the damage, say it with me, fungal growth is NOT about the damage, fungal growth is NOT about the damage. it's about FORCING the opponent out of position, exposing more surface area, preventing adequate focus firing, and forcing the enemy to commit his whole force to a losing fight instead of retreating or microing at all.
That reply seems completely tangential to anything I brought up (though it's all accurate). I only mentioned damage when talking about a) delay tactic which can be effective ZvT because it slows down a push's timing AND weakens the push (or outright kills parts of it). Since you aren't engaging for the duration of FG in this situation the positioning is not a factor b) vs marines.
Also saying dmg only matters vs those 3 units is wrong as at the very least it puts a serious dent into hellions and reapers.
In beta when NP only cost 50 energy and it was already researched i used to spam roach / infestor and when toss made immortal i would just NP it and GG :D
This is a weird comparison. Even if FG does the same total damage when you FG marines you set yourself up to reduce your enemy's damage output very rapidly (picking off wounded marines). When you FG marauders (and marines for that matter) you also prevent their very strong kiting game.When you FG zealots you can pick them off at range, that is true and handy, but it's still not the same or particularly practical unless the army is heavily skewed towards zealots. It also really requires you to have infestors + mass range which is gas prohibitive until later on.
Also you can't use infestors to stall vs Protoss like you can vs Terran. Shield regen means that stalling FG does 0 damage which sets you up poorly for the delayed battle.
Fungal growth is about the damage vs workers marines, zerglings, banelings.
All other times, fungal growth is NOT about the damage, say it with me, fungal growth is NOT about the damage, fungal growth is NOT about the damage. it's about FORCING the opponent out of position, exposing more surface area, preventing adequate focus firing, and forcing the enemy to commit his whole force to a losing fight instead of retreating or microing at all.
That reply seems completely tangential to anything I brought up (though it's all accurate). I only mentioned damage when talking about a) delay tactic which can be effective ZvT because it slows down a push's timing AND weakens the push (or outright kills parts of it). Since you aren't engaging for the duration of FG in this situation the positioning is not a factor b) vs marines.
Also saying dmg only matters vs those 3 units is wrong as at the very least it puts a serious dent into hellions and reapers.
vs both hellions and reapers removing their movement is more important than the damage. so my statement is still correct. i didn't say damage only matters vs those units, but the main reason vs the units i listed is the damage. the main reason for every other unit is the immobility/cloak reveal.
but yeah infestors are amazing units. people need to use them more they can do so much in every matchup.
On September 16 2010 03:05 Roop wrote: Infestors do not stop a phoenix army very well at all because of their movement speed against FG, their lack of clumping, and the ability to graviton beam your infestors. I had a P yesterday pick up my burrowed infestors with phoenixes and an observer. It hurts a lot.
NP them and kill the others...also if you're late enough in the game to have NP you should obv have an overseer with you to kill the observers...
I wonder if you have ever played starcraft in your life.
Please post several replays of you doing this versus competent players.
Look up my profile and you will see that, yes, I do know what I'm talking about I have replays posted everywhere, not gonna look through them to prove something to someone with 3 lines as a name
On September 16 2010 03:05 Roop wrote: Infestors do not stop a phoenix army very well at all because of their movement speed against FG, their lack of clumping, and the ability to graviton beam your infestors. I had a P yesterday pick up my burrowed infestors with phoenixes and an observer. It hurts a lot.
NP them and kill the others...also if you're late enough in the game to have NP you should obv have an overseer with you to kill the observers...
I wonder if you have ever played starcraft in your life.
Please post several replays of you doing this versus competent players.
Look up my profile and you will see that, yes, I do know what I'm talking about I have replays posted everywhere, not gonna look through them to prove something to someone with 3 lines as a name
NP'ing a phoenix to kill the other phoenixes is still one of the worst ideas ever.
Even if the opponent goes AFK, their phoenixes will just float away from yours once they start getting attacked.
If he didn't go AFK, then he's either going to fly away and not take any damage, or grav lift your infestor to break the NP and kill it.
Having an observer near you with the phoenixes with no anti-air nearby... what does that say to you?
don't use them that much against toss, but I'm sure I would have won a lot of games where I got obliterated by chargelot's ability to position themselves as tanks in a very short amount of time. At times like those I wish for an infestor or two to lock them down in one place and proceed to slaughter them along with the rest of the protoss army <3
On September 16 2010 03:05 Roop wrote: Infestors do not stop a phoenix army very well at all because of their movement speed against FG, their lack of clumping, and the ability to graviton beam your infestors. I had a P yesterday pick up my burrowed infestors with phoenixes and an observer. It hurts a lot.
NP them and kill the others...also if you're late enough in the game to have NP you should obv have an overseer with you to kill the observers...
I wonder if you have ever played starcraft in your life.
Please post several replays of you doing this versus competent players.
Look up my profile and you will see that, yes, I do know what I'm talking about I have replays posted everywhere, not gonna look through them to prove something to someone with 3 lines as a name
NP'ing a phoenix to kill the other phoenixes is still one of the worst ideas ever.
Even if the opponent goes AFK, their phoenixes will just float away from yours once they start getting attacked.
If he didn't go AFK, then he's either going to fly away and not take any damage, or grav lift your infestor to break the NP and kill it.
Having an observer near you with the phoenixes with no anti-air nearby... what does that say to you?
LoL, if you attack with 1 infestor and no anti air while he had time to get phoenix' then you deserve to lose. Not seeing them run away when you have 4 or 5 of them mind controlled. That's what the overseer is for, to kill the obs so you can burrow NP also. So unless he has another magical way of seeing burrow you're fine. It's obviously not the best choice, but if you get yourself in that shitty of a situation what more are you going to do...FG them? LoL gl with that
Can someone please post replays of strong infestor play PvZ.
As a protoss player I can see infestors being very strong actually. I think 1-2 infestors just to fungal zealots could work great. Without their meat shield, tech units will drop quickly.
Also, accidentally or purposely fungaling or simply sniping an observer with burrow play can be deadly in the form of roach or infestor play.
Infestor's are great against everything pretty much. Would dare to say the unit is way overpowered in it's current state, but it's something Zerg badly need's. Either way, they force Protoss to get Observers to deal with them, and even then 2 Fungal Growth on it and it's down and you'll have yourself 5+ Tentacles sticking out of the ground with half your army no longer under your control. Think their going to fix that you can Neural Parasite and Fungal Growth while burrowed eventually.
Infestors are great against pheonix. Pheonix are annoying because they can constantly harass/lift things, and the only way to stop it without massing static D is to fungal him when he tries to run in then kill him with hydra. If you have isolated infestors well they're not going to do that well vs pheonix are they. Fungal has more range than graviton beam anyway.
Just lost to ling/infestor into ultras. Was an incredible build. I actually opened stargate and he used queens/fungals to hold off my air X_x. I imagine the infestors were to keep stuff from kiting his ultras. I laid down 2 stargated and pumped constant Void Rays so he finally added hydras, but still. Build made me cry. He was 900ish diamond.
He might have just added the infestors because he had the tech building and needed some AA.
On September 16 2010 03:05 Roop wrote: Infestors do not stop a phoenix army very well at all because of their movement speed against FG, their lack of clumping, and the ability to graviton beam your infestors. I had a P yesterday pick up my burrowed infestors with phoenixes and an observer. It hurts a lot.
NP them and kill the others...also if you're late enough in the game to have NP you should obv have an overseer with you to kill the observers...
I wonder if you have ever played starcraft in your life.
Please post several replays of you doing this versus competent players.
Look up my profile and you will see that, yes, I do know what I'm talking about I have replays posted everywhere, not gonna look through them to prove something to someone with 3 lines as a name
NP'ing a phoenix to kill the other phoenixes is still one of the worst ideas ever.
Even if the opponent goes AFK, their phoenixes will just float away from yours once they start getting attacked.
If he didn't go AFK, then he's either going to fly away and not take any damage, or grav lift your infestor to break the NP and kill it.
Having an observer near you with the phoenixes with no anti-air nearby... what does that say to you?
LoL, if you attack with 1 infestor and no anti air while he had time to get phoenix' then you deserve to lose. Not seeing them run away when you have 4 or 5 of them mind controlled. That's what the overseer is for, to kill the obs so you can burrow NP also. So unless he has another magical way of seeing burrow you're fine. It's obviously not the best choice, but if you get yourself in that shitty of a situation what more are you going to do...FG them? LoL gl with that
I rarely go Infestor vs. Protoss unless I really have a lot of extra gas.
I love the unit but I don't feel that FG does a lot for you if you're up against a competent Protoss player. I have used it to lock down groups of Zealots and pick them off at range with a smaller group of Hydras that otherwise would have died; but that's a rare thing. Usually there are enough Blink Stalkers around to make FG kinda "blah."
IT is weak in the match up as well, although it has sniped some VRs for me.
NP is a joke currently. Maybe at lower levels it can shine but against higher level players - it's so easy to counter I can't even fathom why it was ever nerfed. Of course, that brings up the point that if it does land, you've got it for a whopping 12 seconds, during which time you decide to focus the NP target or take your chances that it'll do enough damage to warrant the investment and not pwn your face as soon as NP breaks. Note that a competent player will have your Infestor dead well before 12 seconds are up. You'll be lucky to land NP in the first place.
Now, vs. Terran Infestors are all kinds of fun simply because FG rocks so hard.
Infested terran is a very crappy version of a good ability that no one use. Fg is a control ability which is very hard to use due to your clunky fat unit that is so obvious to focus fire down, while ghost and high temper can hide inside there units. They do borrow, which do help, but rarely come in play. But fg is no psi storm nor emp. Normally it is only great against bio ball, combine with bling. I think the main issue is still fat clunky unit is not for zerg.
This should mean that FG is maybe even better against gateway balls than against bio balls?
And yet nobody ever does it. Can someone explain why?
nobody does? If its mid-late game and P is going primarily gate units i will definitely add infestors and have had a LOT of success against zealot/stalker/sentry balls. honestly infestors can compliment almost any zerg unit composition VERY well, only drawback is they are very gas expensive, so its tougher to get them in maps where expanding isn't easy to do.
Infested terrans are... kinda amazing o_O. Apparently infestors decimate mass thor armies, especially with burrowed NP. After using NP, surround them with infested terrans and the thors disappear so quickly.
I've had several players tell me infestors are broken, and some very upset that NP can be used while burrowed. They're kinda really good, and a good alternative strategy to the bread and butter stuff. Things like constant casts of FG on rines to kill them are really fun strats.
Infestors have very niche use in ZvP though. They're really helpful vs blink stalkers and one base collo pushes. ... Or air builds.. and a bunch of other things... They have.. a huge niche of use in ZvP..
Who ever thinks NP is useful right now they are a complete idiot, it's as simple as that. Infestors are quite bad in general against protoss, but fungal growth is very useful against colossus (niche purpose, there is virtually no other).
So they have a use versus protoss right now, but it doesn't make them good vs protoss overall. Once they get high templar, the infestors become meat puddles even faster than corruptors.
On September 17 2010 07:35 Xapti wrote: Who ever thinks NP is useful right now they are a complete idiot, it's as simple as that. Infestors are quite bad in general against protoss, but fungal growth is very useful against colossus (niche purpose, there is virtually no other). .
Can you even fungal growth colossi? They are massive and I thought you couldn't FG massive units.
On September 17 2010 07:35 Xapti wrote: Who ever thinks NP is useful right now they are a complete idiot, it's as simple as that. Infestors are quite bad in general against protoss, but fungal growth is very useful against colossus (niche purpose, there is virtually no other). .
Can you even fungal growth colossi? They are massive and I thought you couldn't FG massive units.
On September 17 2010 07:35 Xapti wrote: Who ever thinks NP is useful right now they are a complete idiot, it's as simple as that. Infestors are quite bad in general against protoss, but fungal growth is very useful against colossus (niche purpose, there is virtually no other).
So they have a use versus protoss right now, but it doesn't make them good vs protoss overall. Once they get high templar, the infestors become meat puddles even faster than corruptors.
completely agree. HUGE waste of energy, i wouldn't even try it unless it was lowered to 25-50 energy. minimal micro is required to kill an infestor. fungal growth or even infested terran WAY better energy usage.
On September 17 2010 05:37 ToxNub wrote: I thought NP while burrowed was removed a while ago in a patch?
Nope.
NP has been completely useful to me as of late. #1 if they don't have detection you get a full duration, which is a huge HP swing for your units. A burrowed infestor counts as that zerg equivalent to a DT or Banshee like unit that can hurt the enemy while invisible.
If you NP, FG, send in your units and then use remaining energy on IT I've found that infestors are extremely cost effective against even more gas intense armies. Shift queue is pretty amazing for NP and IT.
Infestors are great, but u need to learn to be comfortable with them, they die fast, but when used right are powerfull.
2 infestors is all u need early on. U want to make em as soon as u can afford it, because it takes time to get energy up. Later on about 4 are all u need.
vs terran, NP thors during a big battle will turn the tide. I had three infestors, controlling thors during a massive assault. Without them i would have lost. Being suprised with a battlecruiser assault when low on anti-air untis, i was able to survive, by controling his battlecruisers while building hydralisks. After losing a big battle, i had some maxed infestors in my base, where infested terrans managed to clean up the leftover MMM so they couldnt completly destroy my expansion.
But yes, u need burrow if u gonna have infestors, u dont want your enemy to know that u have them and they can be killed easy otherwise if u dont keep them underground.
On some maps u can shoot infested terrans to your enemy expansion by using an air unit to provide sight to harass.
To effectivly use FG on MMM u need to send them alone to their army use FG and run away. Its a drain attack, so its better to hit them with it before they reach your army so they are weaker. Offcourse this is quite tricky, because their range isnt that great, but just good enough. But they can easy snipe your infestor if u dont watch out. So u need to learn to hit and run without losing them. I still need to get better with them, but they have won me matches, which otherwise terran would steamroll over me.
Infestors would be really awesome if u could build them with more starting energy. U should be able to have enough energy to use NP when u pop one since thats the reason your building one,losing a fight because your infestors are useless at start is annoying.
I mostly use infestors midgame to expand enough to create enough tier 3 hive such as ultralisks. Without them its hard to stop the terran push.
The great extra about infestors, is that they are great for scouting too, they dont require a special upgrade to move underground, so as soon as u got burrow, u can move them and position.
PS: i always keep the infestors burrowed at the back of the army, as soon as the fight starts, i pop them out in the open and let the NP's fly... During a big battle, its not easy to micro kill your infestors when your troops block their way.
EPT
I really like infestors though. FG in the ZvP matchup is used more as a control spell rather than a damage spell. If you get a good FG on his zealots/stalkers you can engage him at an angle that is very disadvantageous to him since his units won't be able to spread out into a concave and you'll get a near perfect surround.
