Hi Naz, TLO, Jinro - thanks for dropping by. You guys are just after a practice session, right? How did it go?

TLO: Hey, it didn't go so well for me. I went 1-2 in every series so far.

Jinro: Daily ranking matches, yeah. Not done yet but just had a dinner break and I’m 6-9 so far I think (2-3 in series). Zenio is bulldozering though and I haven’t played him yet.


Dario, TL just found out about your chickepox and everyone is pretty sad. We hope you get better soon!

TLO: Thanks, I hope I will be well soon so I can play GSL and perform at my usual level. I think doctors say that having TL behind you speeds up the healing process at least by 300%.


We hope that's true! Good luck for your games, we'll be rooting for your usual.
So gents, the new place - what's it like? We've seen the pictures and it looks pretty spiffy, especially the practice room.

Jinro: It’s pretty nice, and really starting to feel like home - love the 6th floor "park" in between the 4 towers

TLO: It’s a lot bigger than the old place and provides us with a lot better "working "environment. Plus I can sleep in the top bunk bed, what else to say?

Nazgul: I like it a lot, and although I'm not staying, I'm glad I leave these guys behind with such a nice setup. It's in a nice area and especially with someone cooking and cleaning for them all day it should be a pleasant stay.



Haha, I was about to ask who got the top bunk! But yeah, it looks like pretty neat. How has practice been these few days since you've moved in? Apart from the actual games, how much interaction do you have with the oGs guys in terms of discussing strategy before and after games?

Jinro: Hmmm.. oGsGon and JangMinchul comment on a lot of stuff they see when I play, but it’s not really possible to have in depth discussions at this point. Besides, the first real inhouse sessions were today, and I’ve mostly been laddering before then.


Alright, we'll check back with you guys soon for more info on the process, then. On to the next big question. Naz is leaving soon, and that means you guys will be on your own in Korea for the first time. Ready to rumble?

Jinro: Well it sucks of course, it's been a fun few weeks, but I think he has left us well-prepared, hopefully Dario wins GSL and Victor can have a reason to come back for the final !

TLO: Can't wait to finally explore more of the area as soon as my pox are gone. There is a bar nearby that has European beer, I definitely wait to test it out (and probably come back frequently)! We're gonna miss Naz for sure he is an awesome guy and it was a lot of fun to hang around with him.


Since Nazgul is leaving, it's also a great opportunity to dish some dirt on him. What do you guys know about our fearless leader that a lot of people on TL probably dont?

Jinro: I should be careful here. I don’t have as much ammunition as he does. One day, there is going to be a big list of jinro:isms posted on TL, I’m pretty sure.

TLO: Not that people didn't know but I can confirm that he knows just about everything. I think I have lost like 20 arguments against him because he was always right, kinda frustrating!

Jinro: Oh, he has like the best Konglish ever. Even though he doesn’t actually speak Korean, he is about as good a translator as someone who does. ;/


Tell us a little about the neighbourhood you're in at the moment. Dario mentioned a European watering hole. What else is around, and how often do you guys get out?

Jinro: Well there’s a bit of everything I think - there’s a big lotte mall in the building, which has like everything (Lotte seems to make EVERYTHING btw, there’s Lotte marts, Lotte drinks, Lotte clothes lotte lotte lotte)! We also live pretty damn close to the drinking parts of Incheon I think, though in Korea there really does not seem to be any distances to talk of, ever - everything is always nearby.


Nazgul, you're leaving Korea soon after a very eventful weeks. We know you've promised a more detailed account of Liquid's first few weeks there in a later post, but just tell us briefly - how was the ride, and how does it feel to have everything finally setup?

Nazgul: It hasn't been easy I have to say. Right now we are pretty close to where we want to be, except for Dario being sick. It's like every other week something new happened that we had to deal with, but everyone responded very well to it and we made it through no problem.


Well, have a safe flight then. TLO and Jinro, good luck with practice, and we hope to talk to you guys again soon!

Hi Hayder, hi Jos! What's going on? We're here today to talk about the state of the swarm. As Zerg players in both SCBW and its successor, how would you describe your SC2 experience with the race so far?

Hayder: Fine, thanks! I was indeed a Zerg player in BW, even though I played tvz and not zvz because of how low eco oriented that matchup is. I’ve been playing the SC2 since beta in February and I’ve been liking Z in SC2 as well, despite the difficulties that have been around since then.

Jos: It's actually pretty similar but still over the last few days I’ve begun to notice some subtle differences. In SC:BW good macro was often enough to win you games but in SC2 everyone has good macro so you can't rely on that anymore, and this puts even more emphasis on decision making.


Decision making? Would you both expand on that please?

Jos: Well with all the hard counters you really have to scout what your opponent is doing and what units he’s making so you can counter it perfectly or your units will just like melt like snow before the sun.

Hayder: Yeah, I agree with that. It’s actually what makes it hard for Zerg. You have to scout all the time, because it’s much easier to be the aggressive player than the defender in SC2, because of the macro being easy and not requiring that much attention.

Jos: Protoss/Terran units will always be somewhat useful throughout the game, so for them it's easier. A Zealot and Stalker combo is still gonna do decent damage vs any Zerg unit combination, but Roaches cant Kill marauders and Hydras can’t kill a Terran unit except for SCVs. Marines and Marauders are usefull basic units that never lose their value, but for Zerg it’s different. You sometimes have to open Roaches and they can become completely useless later in the game. Same for Mutalisks – once they have a few Thors and Marines, the Mutas almost do nothing anymore. You can’t harass with them because of the Thor splash damage, it’s so risky!

Hayder: Z units seem to be more specialized while Protoss and Terran units, as you say, are more all round! Also, even though it’s much easier for Z to switch tech, he is still restricted by the economy he has. Its’ not like u can go Mutas and then out of nowhere start making Hydra-roach!


So even though Zerg can switch army composition quickly in theory, in practice it doesn't really work that way?

Hayder: Well, the combination that you are limited by your eco and the all around effectiveness of T/P units makes it less effective than it should be.

Jos: It can work out really nicely sometimes when you have enough time and you managed to scout perfectly, and that is the games where you will see Zerg dominate. But on some maps and positions (esp. when you’re very close to your opponent), it can be really difficult to get enough info and make the right decisions. At least that’s what I experienced so far in my games. Me and Hayder are going to have to find some nice build orders that are more all round or something.

Hayder: Yeah, maps are playing a big role especially the small maps and close positions on the other maps, it’s very anti-Zerg in most ways.

Jos: Cross positions on most maps are great for the Zerg because it gives you a few extra seconds to get 2 extra rounds of larvae and then you can make the right units.

Hayder: Yeah, and lets you counter what you scout, because even if you scout something on for example Steppes of War, it doesn’t really matter. You will still die if don’t have the right units already.

Jos: But on Metapolis close pos, or Steppes for example, I feel like I’m always walking on glass, because in 2 seconds my opponent could be at my door and I need to be prepared for it. ;p

Hayder: Yeah, exactly, because it takes 10 seconds for the opponent to reach your nat.

Jos: It would help if Zerg had strong spine crawlers, but they are so weak compared to cannons for example and much weaker than sunken colonies were in SCBW.

Hayder: If spine crawlers didn’t take 50 seconds to build that would be really great too!


So defence on the whole is more difficult. What about harass, the cornerstone of many ZvX matchups in Broodwar?

Jos: I think vs Protoss you can harass well. Mutas are very effective - Archons are weaker, and there are no more Corsairs. Phoenix basically nullify the Mutalisks, but if they open phoenix you can easily just switch to hydras.

Hayder: Yes indeed, Mutas are nice vs Protoss as long as you keep harassing with them.

Jos: ZvT I find it impossible to do any harassing, as soon as you accidently clump your Mutalisks you could lose them to 1 Thor doing 3 shots if you aren’t paying full attention.

Hayder: Harassing vs terran the harassing is very limited. It relies more on the Terran being bad by not having turrets in time or not having Thors or no bunkers or no wall and so on. It doesn’t really depend on the Z. On some maps you can do cute tricks, like hiding banelings behind the bushes on Caverns at their nat and then sneaking them in. Of course, that doesn’t work more than a few times.

Jos: I think drops could be nice, but here the problem is time as well - dropping is something that requires units and you can’t really spare units until you get to a point in the game where you can relax and you know the Terran or Protoss wont attack you any moment. On some maps you can’t really spare the units until after you’ve won a battle and sometimes you’ve already lost the game by then and you invested 300/300 in drop and overlord speed when you needed it for your army. So, I don't know, will have to try it out some more!

Hayder: Drops are nice on bigger maps and can help you get that extra time you need to get your hive tech up. But yeah, if you are playing a Terran that goes for timing attacks and won’t go back to save his main, then you will most likely lose.

Of course, Nydus worms are really nice too. I feel they are better vs Protoss than Terran
because of Terran’s strong defensive abilities and sensor towers that cost as much as Mutalisk and give a lot of map cover.

Jos: Yeah, vs toss they can work out really well, and I think the full capabilities of the Nydus Worm haven’t really been explored yet. I tried some in my game vs socke @ the homestory cup, and it actually showed a ton of potential.



Hayder: Nydus will be used more and more indeed. You can use it to defend expansions
vs Terran drops because you can’t stop those anymore.

Jos: I was about to say this! Maybe we should play ZvT more like we did in SCBW, and just take the most far away expos, Nydus them, and defend on ramps with Broodlords, burrowed Banelings, and other random unit combos. Hive rush?

Hayder: Why would you wanna hive rush? Vs mech, I like it. Broodlords though are too easy to counter with cheap Vikings.

Jos: Well because the only unit that can stop tank pushes is Broodlords, so if you wanna play crazy defensive you need them asap! You could get spores, I guess. Probably a horrible idea.

Hayder: Hmmm, vs non-mech, you don’t need Hive. You just need a lot of Banelings and Mutas and add in more infestors, because Terran will just do insane micro, stimming Marines and running away and all the Banelings and Zerglings will die to the five tanks.

Jos: In between mech and bio, there are a ton of variants, for example 2 fact Thors + 5 rax bio. Don’t you feel uncomfortable with your mass mutas then?

Hayder: As long as you can kill Marines reasonable fast, I feel the Mutas will take care of the rest. But it’s not easy. In theory it should work... Banelings on the Marines, Mutas with a good spread (magic box) on teh Thors. It’s pretty hard.

Jos: But I’ve had so many games where I tried it, and the Mutas clump up accidentally, and the Banelings get stuck or die too fast before they can kill the Marines. =p

Hayder: Yeah, I think Z has to play it carefully and smart and try to have a few infestors to get a nice fungal on most of the marines so they can’t run away. Otherwise you will have the scenario you described. It feels like Z can both win or lose the game in a split second – that play hangs by a thread.

Jos: You realise the army you just described requires over 9000 gas, right?

Hayder: Yeah, I do! I never said playing Z was the easy way.

Jos: That’s true. We are troopers. Fight the power.

Hayder: You need to have the right units and get the right attacking formation, and the Terran needs to be a little AFK. But if all that happens, you will win the fight for sure. Vs Protoss on the other hand, it’s not that “simple”.

Jos: I think we should collect every Terran’s cell phone number and dial it right before we attack. Every little bit helps.

Hayder: That’s a nice idea.



Let's talk a little about a unit you said was useless in TvZ - the Hydralisk. Once a vital part of legendary BW builds like Hydralurk and 5 Hatch Hydra, our spitting friend is now sidelined somewhat in SC2. What gives?


Hayder: Hydras are too slow off creep and by making them you are inviting the Terran to make more tanks. That’s something you don’t want! Therefore, making Hydras isn’t the best option.

Jos: It’s true they play a very small role in almost every matchup at the moment. Vs Terran they are completely useless, they die to Thors, Tanks and even just bio + Medivacs.

Hayder: Vs Protoss, Hydras play the same role. If you make them Toss will respond by making Colossi, and you don’t want that either, because Hydras are gas intensive and you won’t have enough for Corruptors. However, having Hydras (8-10 of them) behind your Roaches in ZvP is really nice because they have insane DPS. Also, going Hydras in ZvT makes it harder for you to stop drops and have map control.

Jos: Vs Protoss they are great against Gateway units but as soon as Colossi or storm comes into play they once again become useless. I use to play Hydra heavy all the time ZvP, and it works great vs weaker players but as soon as you play someone that is good with force fields and Colossus micro then you’ll stop making them.

But yea, I agree with you Hayder, vs Toss you need to go heavy Roaches but you do have to mix in some Hydras.

Hayder: However, when you play Hydra vs t, you can afford many more infestors. They are really great as defenders and really good vs Marines, which is what Terran will counter your Hydras with, combined with mass tanks of course. Thus, the tanks made it hard for Hydra to be viable in this matchup, and Baneling Muta is a much better choice.

If Hydras were stronger and faster it would help, because if a Terran sees you going Hydra he’s going to just get a Raven and start killing creep tumours, which in turn renders the Hydras useless outside the Zerg natural. It’s like ZvP when the Protoss gets an observer. All of a sudden all creep tumours are gone.

Jos: Do you think in the next patch, Hydras might be a better choice vs tanks, since they will do 35 damage to them now instead of 50?

Haypro: Yeah, Hydras will be more viable, but it won’t change a lot. Thors destroy Hydras, and tanks will still do a good amount of damage. More than that though, Terran will hunt creep tumours with Raven support. Of course, I guess you can try a more defensive Hydra-Infestor into fast Hive to counter the incoming tank push. That is something that might work, depending on maps and positions. Of course, with Hydras, you should have lings and Banelings.

Jos: Yeah.


OK, a serious question - a defiler and an infestor get into a fight. Who wins?



Jos: A Defiler can take on like 20 Infestors by himself. The Defiler is a beast. The Infestor can delay the fight by Neural Parasiting the Defiler but as soon as the spell runs out it’s over. I really miss this unit the most. More than Lurkers even.

Hayder: Yeah, I agree. The Defiler is a better unit. However, in ZvZ, the Infestor is Insane because you can get it much earlier than the Defiler. Fungal is really great vs Roach Baneling Muta and so on. It’s easier to use than in ZvT and ZvP. In ZvP I don’t really see any use for the Infestor other than vs people who go Zealot heavy for some reason, or against people that don’t use forcefields.

Jos: Really? Stalker Blink! You absolutely need Infestors are you are going to get microed all the way from here to Tokyo till all your units are dead. They can still blink one time when they have fungal but still it gives you enough time to put a dent in the stalker army.. and without Infestors they can just pull back all the time.

Hayder: Vs just blink stalkers you can defend that with lings and Hydras you don’t really need to get cute with Infestors, and if you are referring to lategame, toss will have so much more than blink stalkers that those won’t really be a problem.

Jos: On maps like Metalpolis with a million cliffs I found that just Hydra ling didn’t work at all, because they can blink out of battle all the time. I would show you a rep, but some toss really are playing pure stalker link nowadays, and are sometimes not even adding other units. Maybe HT in late game, but still, I found it impossible to defend without fungal.

Hayder: An oversee would kill the observer so they can’t blink on cliffs.

Jos: If you are on close positions on Metalpolis... Actually, this is too complicated to explain. Let me just show you a rep sometime. But I really think fungal is useful vs Stalkers.
Hayder: If anything, it makes it easier. I do agree to an extent though – if you can get Infestors without dying, they will help. Close positions in general though are hard no matter what P or T does.


OK let's get into some specifics. What are some situations/builds you face each day that really drive you crazy, and how have you gone about trying to overcome them?

Hayder: Banshees are too good. At least against me, I guess, because for some reason I tend to get a late lair. This makes Banshee cloak a nightmare. Also, Thor pushes with mass SCVS are really hard to beat if you don’t know it’s coming. It really doesn’t matter if it’s close or cross positions.

Jos: Yes, Thors with SCVS in early game off one base are a huge problem. I feel like you need Banelings just to kill the SCVs, because you can’t kill this combination without doing that.
Hayder: Yeah, Banelings are an important part of defeating that. Another thing I really hate is that you can’t kill a SCV that’s building a bunker. I don’t know if it’s part of the game or if it’s a bug but I haven’t gotten an answer for that. Also, the Protoss +1 attack with Chronoboost isn’t fun to deal with, because they get +1 in 30 seconds.

Jos: Yeah, and then lings are worthless. Also, the bunker + SCV thing is soooo annoying. I really feel like us Zergs have it so hard right now lol. Maybe we’re just not getting it though.
Hayder: Yeah, there are fewer people playing Z then T and P. I was told that if the Terrans were the ones playing Z then Zerg would be the OP race and people wouldn’t complain about Z being too good and needing a nerf.

Jos: Well it’s obvious that these Terran gamers are just extremely gifted when it comes to RTS games. I think BRAT_OK could make a difference to Zerg though. He’s a monster. We just need him to defect to our side.


In what ways is the current situation with Zerg similar to pre-Savior Zerg play in Broodwar? Before The Maestro, mass hatch Lair play was not common, and the best sons of the swarm, like July, played more hungry and less macro intensive. Is Zerg play in SC2 just waiting for a similar revolution, or is it just really broken beyond repair in some areas?

Jos: I think we need patches. I played Zerg for a long time in SCBW before the maestro, and never ever felt like I did now.

Hayder: Lots of people say the game is too young u should wait and so on, but they don’t take into account that we have played Broodwar for 10 years and that other players have played WC3 for as many, or that there are top players from other games playing SC2 and that people are just better RTS gamers now and don’t need as much time to get things. So no, I don’t agree with the game being too young for change. E-Sports is also bigger and there are tours and prizes to win every week and being at the losing end of that deal isn’t cool. It feels like picking Z was a bad choice. The only player that seems to be able to win every now and then outside Asia is Dimaga. Sure, there are more players playing Terran and Protoss, but the ratio is not 20:1. People can call it whining, but it’s just a realistic description of the situation at the moment. I love to play ZvT though, just like I did in SCBW.

Jos: Dimaga hasn’t won a tournament in ages. If you talk to Dimaga, all he does nowadays is complain about the balance of the game.

Hayder: Yeah I know, I was just using him as an example. I saw that Darkfroce got to the finals of Zotac and he’s a pretty good Zerg player with nice style.

Jos: Darkforce is actually showing a ton of potential, yes. He really impressed me as well.
Hayder: He plays better than his opponents but somehow still loses games.


OK so let's get down to our community's favourite past time - theorycrafting! Let your imaginations run wild and suggest some fixes that you think will help balance the game out a little at the moment. I'm going to start, OK? Reapers need more speed, siege tanks need more range, and concussive shells shouldn't have to be researched. Sound good?

Hayder: Reapers shouldn’t have more speed however they should have an option where u can either upgrade speed or blink .Blink would make them useful in TvP and also work great in TvT.

Jos: I feel like Terran is really lacking chrono boost next to the 3 options they already have on their orbital commands. Also, mules should cost less energy. 50 is too much and takes forever to accumulate.

Hayder: I think you’re right.


Finally, some sensible balance suggestions. You guys should post more in the strat forum. OK, we're gonna wrap this up, but here's a question for the road - you've already mentioned darkforce, but which new Zergs are looking promising at the moment, and why?

Hayder: Well that’s really hard to say because almost all Zergs lose in the early rounds of every tour so their games don’t get streamed and no reps are usually found afterwards. Thus, following them is difficult.

Jos: Yeah, I haven’t really spotted any good talent because of that, which makes darkforce's rise to the top even more impressive .

Hayder: I hope we'll see new skilled Zergs emerge after the next patch. I think ret has potential. He just need to play a lot and practice more with better players.

TLAF-Liquid`TLO
I would try to market a whole series of cute Zerg products, some greenish energy drink called Spawningpool, Baneling cuddle toy, fruitgums that look like Larva. And we all know that there are people capable of creating delicious looking zerg cakes so we should get those guys to make some more of them!

TLAF-Liquid`Nazgul
The Kerrigan Blow-up Doll

TLAF-Liquid`Jinro

Vincze01's Zerg Base cake, obviously.