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Was watching the D9 daily, and wondered why he focuses so much on lair to defend against cloaked banshees.
Why do Zerg players avoid spores crawlers at all cost, even against banshees, whereas terran include turrets into their game routinely against mutas?
It can't be just the cost. I mean terrans have marines as a very good early option against mutas that they also can use for offense later, and wouldn't even need the detection, as zerg would need against banshees.
Additionally, Zerg needs to protect a lot less ground with air defense than terran, especially when one basing. So 1-2 spore crawlers per hatch and 1-2 queens should be more than enough.
Doing this means you need less gas early and can focus on droning and eco and getting upgrades in your evo already.
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Mutalisks don't do much good in ones or twos. You generally have to get to at least 6 in number to be of any use, at which point, you can make turrets to supplement your marines and thors. Against banshees, which have more range and can be useful even in small numbers because of their high damage output and cloaking ability, you can't spam spore crawlers. For example, if you make 3 spore crawlers at each base to defend against banshees, then you've just wasted a ton of resources to defend 1 banshee if he discontinues production. If you make 3 turrets at each base to defend against mutalisks on the other hand, he's already used 1200 minerals and 1200 gas on the mutalisks. Of course, it doesn't mean they're completely useless once you have turrets up but that's the general logic.
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I don't use them unless I scout air late...rather have 4 drones that 4 static defenses that may never be used
Not to mention as for stealth detection we do have overseers (which are quite quick with the speed upgrade and it's at a Lair, meaning it doesn't have to wait in line for other important upgrade), which banshees can't even attack
Reactions > Static Defenses that may never be used. I'd rather get an overseer in my base with a couple extra Queens
-Diamond Zerg-
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Well, from what I've seen, 1v1 a Banshee will beat a Spore Crawler. So it doesn't seem economical. Not to mention that if you get an Overseer, not only can it detect, but it can also do a great job at scouting with the Changeling, and use the Contaminate to stop unit production.
Edit: And Hydras will destroy air pretty quickly too.
Edit 2: So say your opponent rushes with two cloaked Banshees. You're like "oh no!" And since a Banshee wins 1v1 with a Spore Crawler, you make three Spore Crawlers. You kill the Banshees, and then your opponent says "Hey, I just made him use all those minerals and gas on those Spore Crawlers. I should shaft him by not making any more air."
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with those 1200 min/gas worth of mutalisks you'll kill those turrets no problem... you don't need more than 2 spore crawlers per mineral line to shut down completely banshee harass. You could also get only one for detection per mineral line and 1 more queen which will serve other purposes throughout the game.
Edit :
On September 15 2010 12:29 Ferrose wrote:
Well, from what I've seen, 1v1 a Banshee will beat a Spore Crawler. .
Sorry but... what ??
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On September 15 2010 12:23 imbecile wrote:
Was watching the D9 daily, and wondered why he focuses so much on lair to defend against cloaked banshees.
Why do Zerg players avoid spores crawlers at all cost, even against banshees, whereas terran include turrets into their game routinely against mutas?
It can't be just the cost. I mean terrans have marines as a very good early option against mutas that they also can use for offense later, and wouldn't even need the detection, as zerg would need against banshees.
Additionally, Zerg needs to protect a lot less ground with air defense than terran, especially when one basing. So 1-2 spore crawlers per hatch and 1-2 queens should be more than enough.
Doing this means you need less gas early and can focus on droning and eco and getting upgrades in your evo already.
the short answer: people are terrible
the long answer: people are lazy and misunderstand what Spores and static defense is used for. Spores, like Turrets are not meant to destroy Banshees and Mutas because they can't. It's impossible to build enough air defense to cover everything early in the game.
However, with one 1-2 spores in the right place a banshee is going to have a hell of a time harassing your mineral line. The spore is there to buy time for any units in the area to be able to move back and kill it. In this situation that unit will most likely be the Queen. 1 spore + Queen is going to stop banshee harass. With Zergs double Queening now you can minimize the damage.
Just like in BW where Terrans built turrets so that Mutas had to focus fire them to kill it for free reign on the base, the Terran was attempting to buy time for his Marine force to come back and kill the mutas.
Same idea in SC2, just that some players never got the idea.
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On September 15 2010 12:29 Ferrose wrote:
Well, from what I've seen, 1v1 a Banshee will beat a Spore Crawler. So it doesn't seem economical. Not to mention that if you get an Overseer, not only can it detect, but it can also do a great job at scouting with the Changeling, and use the Contaminate to stop unit production.
Edit: And Hydras will destroy air pretty quickly too.
Edit 2: So say your opponent rushes with two cloaked Banshees. You're like "oh no!" And since a Banshee wins 1v1 with a Spore Crawler, you make three Spore Crawlers. You kill the Banshees, and then your opponent says "Hey, I just made him use all those minerals and gas on those Spore Crawlers. I should shaft him by not making any more air."
Im assuming your gold/dont play zerg.
A banshee cannot 1v1 a spore crawler. I dont even think banshees can 2v1 a spore crawler.
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On September 15 2010 12:45 Apexplayer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 12:29 Ferrose wrote:
Well, from what I've seen, 1v1 a Banshee will beat a Spore Crawler. So it doesn't seem economical. Not to mention that if you get an Overseer, not only can it detect, but it can also do a great job at scouting with the Changeling, and use the Contaminate to stop unit production.
Edit: And Hydras will destroy air pretty quickly too.
Edit 2: So say your opponent rushes with two cloaked Banshees. You're like "oh no!" And since a Banshee wins 1v1 with a Spore Crawler, you make three Spore Crawlers. You kill the Banshees, and then your opponent says "Hey, I just made him use all those minerals and gas on those Spore Crawlers. I should shaft him by not making any more air." Im assuming your gold/dont play zerg. A banshee cannot 1v1 a spore crawler. I dont even think banshees can 2v1 a spore crawler.
Really? Well, I feel dumb.
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sporecrawlers are not nearly as good or cost effective as turrets. You cant; even really compare them.
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On September 15 2010 12:28 Pfeff wrote:
I don't use them unless I scout air late...rather have 4 drones that 4 static defenses that may never be used
Not to mention as for stealth detection we do have overseers (which are quite quick with the speed upgrade and it's at a Lair, meaning it doesn't have to wait in line for other important upgrade), which banshees can't even attack
Reactions > Static Defenses that may never be used. I'd rather get an overseer in my base with a couple extra Queens
-Diamond Zerg-
You actually never addressed the question. All the arguments you have against spores also apply against turrets.
And then there are a few reasons that speak for spores that don't apply to turrets.
You don't need many. 1-2 per hatch maximum. You don't need them primarily for the damage, but for the detection, since you have queens. It's definitely cheaper than overseers, which you want to have scouting the enemy base anyway. And you can reposition them, unlike turrets.
Edit: And I just wanna add, that spore crawlers, unlike overseers, can't be quickly and easily killed or driven away from 9 range by Vikings. If they wanna get rid of that detection, terrans need to pay a price for it.
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Okay let's say I am a zerg, I have 2 bases.
The terran makes 2 cloaked banshees.
So for 1 base you have 1 queen, wich will lose to the banshee's
Okay so let's start looking at spore crawlers.
Spore crawlers altough they outrange banshee's by 1 are very hard to cover a lot of area with.
Okay cool, so I need 2 spore crawlers to protect my mineral line, and let us say that I put my queen in my mineral line.
So that's for 2 bases 4 spore crawlers, 4*(50+75) = 500 minerals
Okay cool, but remember those spine crawlers at the front? The banshee's can pick them off.
Okay so I make no spine crawlers and I keep all my units in spore crawler range, wich is gonna be hard.
Terran now pushes with like a tank/marine force together with his banshees, what are you gonna do now?
Put down even more spore crawlers? That's already more then 500 mins for a race that has to get a hatch up, tech, a lot of drones, zerglings, queens, etc.
Or I see a starport with a tech lab, I make 4 spore's, the terran see's that, he cancels the cloack, puts the tech lab on a rax or whatever, and just makes 1 viking.
Gz, you just invested a ton into static defense that is useless.
No, i'll just stick with getting my lair in time, wich doesn't cost me anything really, because I need to get the tech up anyway, and it doesn't set me back if he doesn't do it or only does mild harass.
Spore crawlers are only for those "oh shit" moments where you have no other choice, besides those, queens + lair is the far superior choice.
And you cannot compare mild banshee harass to muta harass. Those are 2 different things with their own implications.
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So much hate on the spore crawlers. I think they are better than turrets. When i attack a mineral line with my mutas and there is 2 turrets thats np. If there is 2 spores i think 'shit'. It feels like the spore lasts twice as long as a turret and focusing it down isnt a great idea as you will likly lose 1 or 2 mutas and your enemy has twice as much time to move his ass to stop you, and you have half the time to actually harrass and also with perhaps a unit or 2 less.
I dont know about any other air units though but for me and my mutas id rather take on a turret.
I think one reason why zergs dont make spores is that they will only help you early on. Early on do you want to sacrifice a drone for a building in order to sac another drone for another building that MAY help you out for a small time period. Units are just much better way to go. Actually only consistent pheonix harass makes me drop spores or if im failing in zvz and he has air control over the map. Otherwise queen/unit is faster and more cost effective. Hope this noob made some sense.
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I try not to build spore crawlers earlier on, when those extra drones are critical to getting your economy going. One drone + 150 minerals (could've been 3 more drones) + minerals potentially mined during his active lifetime, actually a pretty big investment, for something that may not see much use.
however, we have to account for banshees, and usually just one spore crawler + your queen in each mineral line is enough to buy time to defend, if your build is ground heavy at some point (or just devoid of anti-air). I almost always make the investment, unless it's extremely clear (like, he doesn't even have a starport clear) he doesn't have air. This isn't easy to scout always, as there may be a point in the game where you're unable to scout his main and don't have an overseer yet. Even worse, you scout a starport with tech lab, assume banshees are coming, and then he drops at the back of your base instead, after you've invested/prepared for banshee harass. It's also pretty easy to swap a tech lab here and there, so you just never know. Just one or two (preferably just ONE) spore crawler(s) should be ok 
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@Icx
See my post above. All the reasons you bring up against spores also apply against turrets.
Also, as was mentioned, spores buy you more time than turrets.
And its cheaper to have a spore in your base than to have an overseer sitting idly in your base. The overseers you have you want to have with your army or scouting the enemy.
The abilities of the overseer are useless in your base, whereas a spore crawler provides meat and dps on top of detection.
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Also, the missile turrets for Terran are more effective than the spore crawler for zerg. It takes less time to make, has greater range and does more dps compared to a spore.
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On September 15 2010 12:58 Icx wrote:
Okay let's say I am a zerg, I have 2 bases.
The terran makes 2 cloaked banshees.
So for 1 base you have 1 queen, wich will lose to the banshee's
Okay so let's start looking at spore crawlers.
Spore crawlers altough they outrange banshee's by 1 are very hard to cover a lot of area with.
Okay cool, so I need 2 spore crawlers to protect my mineral line, and let us say that I put my queen in my mineral line.
So that's for 2 bases 4 spore crawlers, 4*(50+75) = 500 minerals
Okay cool, but remember those spine crawlers at the front? The banshee's can pick them off.
Okay so I make no spine crawlers and I keep all my units in spore crawler range, wich is gonna be hard.
Terran now pushes with like a tank/marine force together with his banshees, what are you gonna do now?
Put down even more spore crawlers? That's already more then 500 mins for a race that has to get a hatch up, tech, a lot of drones, zerglings, queens, etc.
Or I see a starport with a tech lab, I make 4 spore's, the terran see's that, he cancels the cloack, puts the tech lab on a rax or whatever, and just makes 1 viking.
Gz, you just invested a ton into static defense that is useless.
No, i'll just stick with getting my lair in time, wich doesn't cost me anything really, because I need to get the tech up anyway, and it doesn't set me back if he doesn't do it or only does mild harass.
Spore crawlers are only for those "oh shit" moments where you have no other choice, besides those, queens + lair is the far superior choice.
And you cannot compare mild banshee harass to muta harass. Those are 2 different things with their own implications.
This is the perfect example of someone who doesn't get it
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the main issue is that mutalisk take a long time unless in large numbes to kill buildings, and killing a single rax or factory takes forever and has a relatively minor impact, and depots are pretty easy to replace. a group of 3-4 banshees can take down zerg tech extremely fast due to dealing almost 3x as much damage as a mutalisk per banshee. now the only targets in a zerg base are the hatches (take forever to kill), the extractors, the drones, and tech. and zerg tech doesn't take long at all to take down (about half as long as a factory,or less if a spire). so you need more crawlers because you have to cover everything losing a tech structure especially spire sets you back badly, unlike losing a single factory. the workers are the main concern with mutas, and everything but the hatch is a concern vs banshees. you just need MORE to defend against them. thats not to say it's imbalanced. I think spores would be more useful if they rooted in less time than it takes to kill them with a banshee. instead of the outrageously long 12 seconds.
That being said spore crawlers have insane DPS and are pretty much rediculous in groups of 3. like spine crawlers are.
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Baa?21244 Posts
Turrets are basically free since Terran barely has a strain on minerals with MULEs and stuff; Zerg has to lose a Drone for each shitty piss-spraying thing that's useless beyond fending off 2 Banshees.
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On September 15 2010 13:18 flanksteak wrote:
+One drone + 150 minerals (could've been 3 more drones) + minerals potentially mined during his active lifetime, actually a pretty big investment.
A spore crawler costs on 75, e.g. 125 with drone. And it's 400 health. The time it takes to kill one spore crawler saves you more drones than that.
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On September 15 2010 13:26 Ace wrote:
This is the perfect example of someone who doesn't get it
And why is that?
I made the decision for myself.
Are 1-2 spore per base worth it?
Or worded in a different way, I spent let's say 300-400minerals on some spores, to get about even.
So when banshee harass comes in, do I lose 300-400 mins worth of drones/tech/whatever that could justify the cost of the spore crawlers? No
So I choose to spend those mins toward actually usefull stuff, and I just deal with the banshee's, and altough I have had some losses against them, these days I deal with them very well.
If the T did a good job harassing me I nowadays lose like a queen and a drone or 2.
But because I didn't have to put all my mins into static defense I have better saturation, I get my lair a bit quicker, and by the time banshee's can actually start doing real damage(if he commits to it) I have the appropriate responses up in time.
Then your other point, you say delay the actuall harass untill your units can come in and defend.
You know what really helps with that?
Good overlord spread so you can see them incoming
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EPT
