EPTOh, and a 5th drone for the fast evo chamber. Things start adding up.
[D] Spore Cawlers vs. Turrets - Page 4
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dudeman001
United States2412 Posts
Oh, and a 5th drone for the fast evo chamber. Things start adding up. | ||
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imbecile
563 Posts
 On September 16 2010 01:26 me_viet wrote: If your gonna get overseers anyways, why bother with spores? If you are gonna get Goliaths, why bother getting marines? I mean, both can shoot. On September 16 2010 01:26 me_viet wrote: How are you gonna be ahead if your sac'ing drones to make spores? Because you don't need as much gas, and drones on gas. Cutting gas to get more workers is a pretty standard technique. You can do that with spores, he can't when teching to cloaked banshees. And as mentioned above, just the time it takes to kill a spore crawler with 400hp saves you 8 drones. The other two choices he has is to stop harassing, or engage in high risk, high micro effort, low reward harass. On September 16 2010 01:26 me_viet wrote: Also, where on earth did you get he 17s of lost mining time? You do realise drones don't come back after morphing into a spore right? Yes, drones don't come back on their own. But you can't count the drone double. A spore crawler either costs 125 minerals and 17s lost mining time to remake that drone. Or it costs 75 minerals, and 50mins and 17s of lost mining time to remake that drone. And counting the larva as disadvantage in comparison to an overseer is not right either, because the overseer costs a larva too. | ||
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Pfeff
United States270 Posts
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MadBoat
127 Posts
if you don't have lair tech, and are getting pounded by 1 or 2 cloaked banshees? I don't have much pity for you. ignore, for a moment, the difficulties in getting enough gas for 2 cloaked banshees as fast as possible, and just look at upgrade times. cloak requires 110 seconds, starport requires 50 seconds, techlab requires 25 (maybe less if you do an add-on swap). Lair requires 80 secs + 17 secs for overseer build time. Terrans can start on that path after building a factory, which will NEVER be done sooner than the Zerg's spawning pool. So if you don't have lair tech when cloaked banshees arrive, wtf have you been doing? overseers can get shot down by vikings, but they're a lot faster than overlords (I assume you didn't get the upgrade), and tougher (1 more armor), and you have no reason to scatter them around the map where they can be isolated. They could, conceivably, drive them away from your mineral lines, and then cloaked banshees pick off some workers. but then the AA that would have killed the banshees kills or drives off the viks, then the overseer returns, and then the banshees die. Does the extra harass time justify the cost of those vikings? I doubt it. There does not seem to be a reason, therefore, to ever stop banshee cloak with a spore crawler. I would not say the same thing about ghosts, however. | ||
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baconbits
United States419 Posts
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imbecile
563 Posts
On September 16 2010 03:51 Pfeff wrote: So I'm curious...why did you even post this thread if you are just going to argue with everyone who says anything in it? You obviously have your own opinion, so go play your games with your hindering strat and stop arguing with people that are just trying to help you This is a [D] thread, not an [H] thread. I'm just bothered when strategies/units are so outright dismissed without even thinking about it. I'm not at all saying that Overseers are bad and you should never get to lair and get them (lol). They obviously are not (although in comparison to obs and ravens they are). Overseers have advantages and disadvantages. Just as spore crawlers. And what you use should be determined by what you wanna do and what situation you are in. And I found that contrast quite intriguig, between terrans getting turrets virtually every time Zerg gets a Spire, but Zergs never getting spore crawlers when terrans get starport. And if that could be one of the reasons terrans dominate zerg so much. And quite a bit of info and thoughts ended up in this thread. Some people have read it, and maybe someone is trying new things now. The arguing is just added entertainment value. A little bit good-natured hostility, arrogance and mean-spirited silliness can be great fun, especially if it doesn't devolve into cussing. If the opportunity presents, I jump at it. Who doesn't hate Toby? | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22632 Posts
On September 16 2010 04:28 imbecile wrote: This is a [D] thread, not an [H] thread. I'm just bothered when strategies/units are so outright dismissed without even thinking about it. I'm not at all saying that Overseers are bad and you should never get to lair and get them (lol). They obviously are not (although in comparison to obs and ravens they are). Overseers have advantages and disadvantages. Just as spore crawlers. And what you use should be determined by what you wanna do and what situation you are in. And I found that contrast between terrans getting turrets virtually every time Zerg gets a Spire, but Zergs never getting spore crawlers when terrans get starport. And if that could be one of the reasons terrans dominate zerg so much. Main thing, as pointed out by zelniq, is the range of 3 on mutas v range of 6 on banshees. Spores are pretty much useless because they can't cover each other. | ||
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imbecile
563 Posts
On September 16 2010 04:33 Palmar wrote: Main thing, as pointed out by zelniq, is the range of 3 on mutas v range of 6 on banshees. Spores are pretty much useless because they can't cover each other. Agree, the range differential is a big reason. But since there are always queens present, they don't need to cover for each other. They are just quick and cheap detection with a lot of added meat and dps and zero delay in coverage and micro demand. So if your opponent gets any cloaked units, I'd always go spore for defensive detection. A lot faster reaction rates, a lot cheaper, a lot more resilient and always an deterrent. And frees up your overseers for offensive detection and scouting. Zerg have enough problems with scouting already anyway. | ||
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Pfeff
United States270 Posts
On September 16 2010 04:28 imbecile wrote: This is a [D] thread, not an [H] thread. I'm just bothered when strategies/units are so outright dismissed without even thinking about it. I'm not at all saying that Overseers are bad and you should never get to lair and get them (lol). They obviously are not (although in comparison to obs and ravens they are). Overseers have advantages and disadvantages. Just as spore crawlers. And what you use should be determined by what you wanna do and what situation you are in. And I found that contrast quite intriguig, between terrans getting turrets virtually every time Zerg gets a Spire, but Zergs never getting spore crawlers when terrans get starport. And if that could be one of the reasons terrans dominate zerg so much. And quite a bit of info and thoughts ended up in this thread. Some people have read it, and maybe someone is trying new things now. The arguing is just added entertainment value. A little bit good-natured hostility, arrogance and mean-spirited silliness can be great fun, especially if it doesn't devolve into cussing. If the opportunity presents, I jump at it. Who doesn't hate Toby? Alright, fair enough lol i rescind my previous statement | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
Yeah, T having tech switch potential while Z having little-to-none. Pretty much how TvZ is early/midgame. Idk why everyone says it's the opposite. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
What used to be 4 range in SC is now 6 range in SC2. This makes static defenses (with 7 range) basically useless as they can't even defend a building that they are literally touching. Spore Crawlers aren't used because they are a waste of money unless T is an idiot. Turrets are used because they can destroy Mutalisks at a disturbing rate. | ||
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Phrencys
Canada270 Posts
The spore is there to allow your queens to see & shoot the thing, and help them queen not getting too low on health. You're not supposed to shower your base with spore crawlers. The crawlers are also decent even if you got lair, if you know you're against a player who'll persistently harass you with air throughout the game. Otherwise your only alternative is more queens or more hydras/corruptors sitting there, which takes up supply and is costly. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
When I watch phoenixwerra's stream (who is btw 10 times better, and 10 time less hyped than cella), he always put 2 spores/mineral line when facing a air harass risk. And well, except in very early game, since when minerals are a problem for zergs ? It's very standard for a zerg (even the very good ones) to have 1-4k excess minerals. Not that they have poor macro, but they are so often gaz-limited. edit : last part not very relevant since air harass is not really a mid game issue | ||
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Runnit
United States31 Posts
Build Drone for Spore: 50 mins Spore: 75 mins Build drone to replace drone lost: 50 mins In order to not take a hit on the economy, you are spending 175 minerals. A spore only does 15 dmg per shot. So it is a good deterent, but can be easily overwhelmed if a player wants to get through. Terran's build missile turrets in most games because they are awesome. Only cost 100 minerals, do 24 damage, and are able to have 8 range (with upgrade) which will out-range most air units with ease. For the most part, that is why Zerg's don't use a ton of Spores, and Terran's use a lot of Turrets. It is a much better investment for terran then it is zerg. | ||
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SpiciestZerg
United States154 Posts
After all, gas is much more important and spores are only minerals. tldr: spores are great since so much gas is being used by your opp, but early game cant scout banshee tech so dont know if theyre needed or not. PS banshees cant harass if you have mutas, so spores are unnecessary at that point. On September 16 2010 06:44 Runnit wrote: They are avoided because we have hard time justifying them. Most of the time you will see 1 or 2 in key locations as a deterrent more then an actual "this is my defense". Just something to make the player rethink how they are going to attack. Build Drone for Spore: 50 mins Spore: 75 mins Build drone to replace drone lost: 50 mins In order to not take a hit on the economy, you are spending 175 minerals. A spore only does 15 dmg per shot. So it is a good deterent, but can be easily overwhelmed if a player wants to get through. Terran's build missile turrets in most games because they are awesome. Only cost 100 minerals, do 24 damage, and are able to have 8 range (with upgrade) which will out-range most air units with ease. For the most part, that is why Zerg's don't use a ton of Spores, and Terran's use a lot of Turrets. It is a much better investment for terran then it is zerg. and this is just dumb... also all static defense is a deterrent; only bronze noobs make enough to stand on its own. | ||
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EriktheGuy
Canada132 Posts
Meanwhile, zerg has little other option for detection other than overseers. Banshees can always be transferred to the main army. For zerg, overseers are needed to deal with this, for terran, a few sweeps can assist the army until enough time passes to easily get ravens. Additionally, the terran army is less mobile than the zerg army. If air harass attacks while you are out, you need the turrets in place to distract while you move your thors/marines home. If zerg is attacked by they can get the army home quicker (and the overseer quicker still). Combined with having a queen at the base, this is often sufficient. Finally, the crawler costs 25 minerals more than the turret, takes 22 seconds more to build (30s for spore crawler + 17s for drone, vs 25s for turret), and sets the zerg player back one precious larva. I think what it really comes down to is each races options for detection. In zerg, you have the overlords (and probably overlord speed) anyways, so an overseer costs you 50/100, takes only 17 seconds, and uses no larva. For terran, the raven requires more tech, costs 100/200, and uses the extremely valuable production queue of a starport + techlab for 60 seconds. One final pointer is that banshee harass often comes as a surprise. If you have lair when the banshees hit, it takes 30 seconds to build a crawler (which the banshee can kill off while it morphs) and only 17 seconds to make the overseer (which the banshee cannot target). Take what you will from that. Some people in this thread have suggested that no one uses spore crawlers because they are all morons. I'd like to think that the pros know what they are doing, and I wouldn't take these posters too seriously. We might find some uses for them down the road as the metagame evolves, or they might even receive a buff at some point. I really don't know. | ||
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EriktheGuy
Canada132 Posts
On September 16 2010 06:44 Runnit wrote: They are avoided because we have hard time justifying them. Most of the time you will see 1 or 2 in key locations as a deterrent more then an actual "this is my defense". Just something to make the player rethink how they are going to attack. Build Drone for Spore: 50 mins Spore: 75 mins Build drone to replace drone lost: 50 mins In order to not take a hit on the economy, you are spending 175 minerals. A spore only does 15 dmg per shot. So it is a good deterent, but can be easily overwhelmed if a player wants to get through. Terran's build missile turrets in most games because they are awesome. Only cost 100 minerals, do 24 damage, and are able to have 8 range (with upgrade) which will out-range most air units with ease. For the most part, that is why Zerg's don't use a ton of Spores, and Terran's use a lot of Turrets. It is a much better investment for terran then it is zerg. You counted the drone twice. If you built the drone FOR the spore crawler (as you stated) then it doesn't need to be replaced, because none of your harvesting drones were used up. 125 min for spore crawler. | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
On September 15 2010 12:34 cArn- wrote: with those 1200 min/gas worth of mutalisks you'll kill those turrets no problem... Are you sure about that? with SCV repair those turrets are pretty freaking hard to kill. | ||
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KuFingreen
Taiwan28 Posts
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