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It all basically comes down to scouting. If I scout banshees before my mutas then i pop down 1-2 crawlers for safety. Otherwise I will morph an overseer and rape them with my mutas. As for toss if I scout phoenix haras then I always pop a spore at each base.
If I fail to scout them I will start another queen, pop 3 crawlers and cancel the one he targets before it dies. If he targets drones then spores complete, if he targets the spores then hopefully its delayed until mutas pop.
Obviously anything is cost effective if it prevents your economy from getting raped.
As for whether pre-emptive spores are worth it? Most zergs have excess minerals anyway so if thats you then why the hell not? Especially if you spawn on a short air rush map/location they are effective at deterring drops as well.
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On September 16 2010 11:37 Ghost-z wrote:
As for whether pre-emptive spores are worth it? Most zergs have excess minerals anyway so if thats you then why the hell not? Especially if you spawn on a short air rush map/location they are effective at deterring drops as well.
Not really, zerg is more mineral-strained than T or P because expanding is hand-in-hand with production, meaning Z expands as soon as he has the minerals to do so. Would you rather have two preemptive spore crawlers or a hatch and one less drone?
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On September 15 2010 13:35 Uranium wrote:
The real reason is because Mutalisks have 3 range and Banshees have 6. This means that Spores have lower effective range against Banshees than Turrets have against Mutalisks.
^ This
Spore crawlers have range 7 and banshees have range 6. In other words, the area that it protects from a banshee is a circle of radius of one. Unless you litter your base with them, you're not actually protected from anything.
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On September 16 2010 07:04 SpiciestZerg wrote:
Rather than all the reasons people put forth i think it really has more to do with scouting. Spore crawlers are definitely cost effective...125 minerals vs 150 min 100 gas. But unfortunately its hard to scout, and preemptively putting down spore crawlers would do more harm then good. Once you see them though its definitely worth putting at least one down at each mineral line to protect your drones. (remember they 2 shot drones and fire insanely fast), and if they got cloak rather than making 3-4 overseers it would generally be better to just making 1-2 for your army and adding even more spores to counter the 200/200 investment in cloak.
After all, gas is much more important and spores are only minerals.
tldr: spores are great since so much gas is being used by your opp, but early game cant scout banshee tech so dont know if theyre needed or not.
PS banshees cant harass if you have mutas, so spores are unnecessary at that point.
and this is just dumb...
also all static defense is a deterrent; only bronze noobs make enough to stand on its own.
my post is dumb, yet you are NOWHERE even close to the OP topic. The OP's topic was Spore vs Turret. Not Spores vs Banshees ( -_-)
The spore def has its place and in some cases the better decision. But those scenarios are far less then common then the scenarios where Terran's need Turrets.
On September 16 2010 08:20 EriktheGuy wrote:You counted the drone twice. If you built the drone FOR the spore crawler (as you stated) then it doesn't need to be replaced, because none of your harvesting drones were used up. 125 min for spore crawler.
Sure, in that example you don't need to 'replace' the drone. But you are now 1 miner short then what you could be at. So you are still losing that potential miner.
Unless you plan on waiting that extra time for a new drone, your just going to pull a drone off of mining (50 mins already paid for). Now you have to replace it.
Regardless though, arguing that point is the same as arguing that the MULE does or doesn't 'cost' 270 minerals
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Queen> spore crawlers. With the extra queen 150 minerals, you can spread creep much much faster. You can use tranfusion while fight with banshee.
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On September 16 2010 12:52 Nakas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 13:35 Uranium wrote:
The real reason is because Mutalisks have 3 range and Banshees have 6. This means that Spores have lower effective range against Banshees than Turrets have against Mutalisks. ^ This Spore crawlers have range 7 and banshees have range 6. In other words, the area that it protects from a banshee is a circle of radius of one. Unless you litter your base with them, you're not actually protected from anything.
Also, the short range on mutalisks means that mutalisks attacking them are pulled into overlapping fields of fire with good turret placement. So the mutas take tons of damage. OTOH, Banshees attacking Spore Crawlers will have an easy time isolating the defense and destroying it quickly if they care to. Taking down 3 turrets/crawlers one at a time is much easier than taking them down all at once.
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Spores are only good in ZvZ. spore into hydra + infestor FG. That basically blind-counters every zerg... especially on scrap station. and pray they get baneling to counter your hydralisk all the funnier to see your one infestor become a METAMORPH after killing a couple dozen B-ling
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Firstly, there can be no direct comparison between spore and turrets, its just silly. Terrans have the mineral advantage where as zerg is very mineral heavy, especially early->mid game where everything you make costs just so much minerals. Terran macro constraints are largely gas restricted (unless you go for mm).
Secondly the key thing to whether or not spores are useful is based more upon the state of the game than actual costs. If you know that there is no possible way the terran can get cloak anytime soon because of his army then queen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spore crawler that you cannot compare (range 9 for queen, all the abilities, ability to deny other harass). That last point i feel is the biggest key as well as transfusion. Sure your spore crawler might ward away 2 banshees but what are the spore crawlers going to do when the terran doesnt make any more banshees and pushes you with a ground army. The spore crawler become useless where as a queen (albeit not that strong) can help defend, spread creep, transfuse.
In the case of detection against banshee, there can be an argument to put down 1 sporecrawler at each base (AND 1 ONLY) if you need more AA use queens. This however does not mean you can skimp on the overseer either. Banshees do not have to only hit your mineral line, they can destroy your army too in engagements.
TL;DR - Dont get spores for AA, 1 spore at each base is enough for detection after that use queens. Turret >>>>>>>> spore because of the macro constraints of the two races.
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I believe everyone here is completely off track in this case. The question posed was why we don't see spores vs banshees more often, and the real answer hasn't been stated at all.
When zergs are up against banshees, terran is usually rushing them. At this point in time, almost no zerg will have an evolution chamber ready to counter this. If we compare the building times for lair (80) overseer (17) and evo (35) spore (30), we see that the latter method is method is quicker to set up. However, as stated in previous posts, this method sets you back economically due the the number of drones required. This also puts you behind in tech and effectively contains your units in your base since you lack mobile detection and any decent AA unit.
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On September 16 2010 00:41 Pfeff wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 15:17 Xapti wrote:
Problem is, it's pretty hard to defend with just queens if they save up to 3 banshees, in fact it's impossible since 3 banshees beat 3 queens, and I don't think you can get more than 3 queens in the time it takes to get 3 banshees, assuming one doesn't do something like hatch first build. It's called Transfusion
How long are you staying on hatchery tech?
Cause really, you can only afford transfusion if you have more then 1 queen per base and most people get the second queen after lair. If you have the lair already, might as well just get an overseer.
On September 16 2010 03:39 imbecile wrote:
And counting the larva as disadvantage in comparison to an overseer is not right either, because the overseer costs a larva too.
No it doesn't because you are using a pre-existing overlord. Sure you have to build the overlord using a larva, but you were going to build that overlord anyways and it was already there. You arn't spending an extra larva to make an overseer. Look at it this way, if I was playing a standard strat and decided to build spores, it would cost me larva in the form of drones. If you were playing your strat and decided to transition to standard, you already have the overlord you are using for supply.....
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On September 15 2010 13:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Turrets are basically free since Terran barely has a strain on minerals with MULEs and stuff; Zerg has to lose a Drone for each shitty piss-spraying thing that's useless beyond fending off 2 Banshees.
and a drone is a larvae you cant use on army too, plus you need the evo chamber which is usually after lair
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Well, I started as terran in BW, kept it up in SC2 but after all these imbalance discussions I decided to switch to zerg and it has been about a month.
What I could notice during this month was that everything you need to do as zerg adds up on APM. Not just APM but also Decisions per Minute. Having an overseer in every one of your bases is a cool thing, yes, and if you can spare a hundred gas for each of them instead of mutalisk at around "that" timeline where terran also gets banshees / medivacs and decides to push out, then you are fine. However, as zerg I feel a lot of pressure on my gas count. I am going to need infestors (each 150 gas) to battle his MMM ball, I am going to need banelings to soften'em before finishing... I also will need gas for upgrades (+1 carapace is 150 gas) so... The first part giving + on spore crawlers is the gas demand at those times ... starting from minute 5 to minute where you have two expansions fully droned and gassed up and running and you gathered enough muta's and / or infestors... well.. I would say this happens around 15 minute mark, if it ever happens (terran lets you)
And the second part is about the decision / action per minute part. When you place two spore crawlers in your bases, you basically cut down a portion of actions to do from that "HUGE" list. You just throw down 4-6 spore crawlers and then you don't have to worry about falling back, leaving some hydralisks back, or even produce hydralisk at all (seriously, what other ground unit do we have that can attack air besides queens that you already have in all your bases, and gas free?)
The truth: you are going to need gas. You are going to need the weight on your shoulder reduced to battle terran. ( untill you become an APM / Decision Per Minute Lord - which an equal level terran does not have to become) So what spore crawlers give you is that.
When comparing with Misile Turrets, though... You are also comparing the races overall. The races supposedly have strengths / weaknesses. As zerg, when you build spore crawlers, you are reducing your weakness (add scan/early anti air/gas free solution) on terran however you are adding up to your strength (You already have scan for detection, and marines can shoot air, and it is cheap as hell and repairable. - Ever seen 7 scv's repairing a single turret and eachother under mutalisk fire?)
So when terrans build up turrets, they make their alread fine job a lot easier and focus on their macro + a move. As zerg however, most people believe the race is so troublesome that spores are not worth investing into: you have to do what terran does and add strength over your strength. (i.e. produce more units... I really can't understand this when we are talking about banshee's... Do they mean to produce hydralisks? Which will get owned off creep? And will waste gas of mutalisks, our best delayers / containers? Maybe, what a zerg should do is to overproduce and try to break into terran before it's too late...)
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Couple of reasons:
Banshee range: 6, Muta range: 3
Banshee: cloak, Muta: extra bounce attack
Banshee: insane damage, Muta: fairly average damage
Banshee: kills zerg t1 anti air decisively in medium numbers, Muta: always loses to terran t1 anti air
Banshee: Shut down by t2 zerg units completely (especially mutas), Muta: viable and useful throughout the game
To expand a little on the above, the reason turrets are a good investment is that mutas are a game-long threat. Banshees are not a threat if zerg gets mutas, hydras, or infestors because each of these units absolutely destroys banshees. So the second you get a lair the 500 or so minerals you spent on spore crawlers (and larvae) becomes a useless investment, and you have to get a lot of spores to cover enough of your base to be effective vs banshees.
Spores are good in ZvZ muta and ZvPhoenix though, for regaining the ability to push out of your base safely.
Ohhh, and one more VERY important point is that spores make it so you can't leave your base. Being able to scout and engage terrans in the open is KEY to beating them, as once they set up outside your front door it's usually already GG.
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On September 16 2010 18:06 dogabutila wrote:
No it doesn't because you are using a pre-existing overlord. Sure you have to build the overlord using a larva, but you were going to build that overlord anyways and it was already there. You arn't spending an extra larva to make an overseer. Look at it this way, if I was playing a standard strat and decided to build spores, it would cost me larva in the form of drones. If you were playing your strat and decided to transition to standard, you already have the overlord you are using for supply.....
And that drone is not pre-existing? Sure, an overlord is something different from a drone. But 50min and 150 gas is also something different from 125mins. And a spore crawler will very likely stay with you for the rest of the game, whereas an overseer is more or less expensive cannon fodder and a priority target with no defense that needs to be remade all the time.
And don't forget, if you have only overseers, he can prevent you from scouting and having detection at you army by harassing with cloaked banshees. Actually a very good and common technique, to go to banshee for harass, and then decide what you are gonna get next. If your overseer is at your base, you won't know what your opponent is doing.
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Two reasons:
1. Muta range is much shorter than banshee range. Banshees are able to only ever engage 1 spore at a time and it is impossible to cover your base from all angles against a banshee, with spores. Turrets, on the other hand, are very good versus mutas because mutas have short range, so wherever you put them, they will be able to team up against the mutas.
2. MULES. Terrans are pretty much rolling in minerals the whole game. What better thing to spend it on than turrets when they are so effective against mutas?
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I'm sure it's been covered pretty well in this thread... but as a Terran you'll usually have a good amount of Marines to ward flying units off, the Turrets are there to buy time.
As a zerg what do you have at Tier 1 when a Banshee attack hits? 2 or 3 queens, with more on the way? No creep linking your nat and main yet?
Yeah, i'd much rather have Lair up thanks.
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You make 5000 spores and T still finds a little spot that isn't covered and does damage to you anyways. That's prob why.
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On September 15 2010 14:06 Melancholia wrote:
It's the same reason you never see Banshees as a main army unit and you do see Mutas in that role. Banshees are effective in small numbers and early in the game, and are not something you continue to produce. Mutas are terrible in small numbers and are massed well into the game, so the threat of Mutas hitting all around your base is present for much longer. Turrets aren't a waste because they continue to be useful. Spore crawlers cost a drone and resources for basically a single point in the game, a point in the game at which Zerg cannot afford to lose money.
What are you talking about? Banshees are used as main army units all the time. Or at least in fairly large groups against any race. Ground AA is not that effective against them except maybe for the Thor. It usually takes more cash to spend on ground AA than it takes for the Terran player to beat the ground AA with just his Banshees.
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On September 17 2010 05:49 AzureD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 14:06 Melancholia wrote:
It's the same reason you never see Banshees as a main army unit and you do see Mutas in that role. Banshees are effective in small numbers and early in the game, and are not something you continue to produce. Mutas are terrible in small numbers and are massed well into the game, so the threat of Mutas hitting all around your base is present for much longer. Turrets aren't a waste because they continue to be useful. Spore crawlers cost a drone and resources for basically a single point in the game, a point in the game at which Zerg cannot afford to lose money. What are you talking about? Banshees are used as main army units all the time. Or at least in fairly large groups against any race. Ground AA is not that effective against them except maybe for the Thor. It usually takes more cash to spend on ground AA than it takes for the Terran player to beat the ground AA with just his Banshees.
Absolutely true
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2 queens per hatchery (most liklely you'll have a 2nd base so 4 queens) and 1 spore crawler at each for defense.
also handy for upgrade starting as you'll have 1 evo chamber early on
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EPT
