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Was watching the D9 daily, and wondered why he focuses so much on lair to defend against cloaked banshees.
Why do Zerg players avoid spores crawlers at all cost, even against banshees, whereas terran include turrets into their game routinely against mutas?
It can't be just the cost. I mean terrans have marines as a very good early option against mutas that they also can use for offense later, and wouldn't even need the detection, as zerg would need against banshees.
Additionally, Zerg needs to protect a lot less ground with air defense than terran, especially when one basing. So 1-2 spore crawlers per hatch and 1-2 queens should be more than enough.
Doing this means you need less gas early and can focus on droning and eco and getting upgrades in your evo already.
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Mutalisks don't do much good in ones or twos. You generally have to get to at least 6 in number to be of any use, at which point, you can make turrets to supplement your marines and thors. Against banshees, which have more range and can be useful even in small numbers because of their high damage output and cloaking ability, you can't spam spore crawlers. For example, if you make 3 spore crawlers at each base to defend against banshees, then you've just wasted a ton of resources to defend 1 banshee if he discontinues production. If you make 3 turrets at each base to defend against mutalisks on the other hand, he's already used 1200 minerals and 1200 gas on the mutalisks. Of course, it doesn't mean they're completely useless once you have turrets up but that's the general logic.
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I don't use them unless I scout air late...rather have 4 drones that 4 static defenses that may never be used
Not to mention as for stealth detection we do have overseers (which are quite quick with the speed upgrade and it's at a Lair, meaning it doesn't have to wait in line for other important upgrade), which banshees can't even attack
Reactions > Static Defenses that may never be used. I'd rather get an overseer in my base with a couple extra Queens
-Diamond Zerg-
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Well, from what I've seen, 1v1 a Banshee will beat a Spore Crawler. So it doesn't seem economical. Not to mention that if you get an Overseer, not only can it detect, but it can also do a great job at scouting with the Changeling, and use the Contaminate to stop unit production.
Edit: And Hydras will destroy air pretty quickly too.
Edit 2: So say your opponent rushes with two cloaked Banshees. You're like "oh no!" And since a Banshee wins 1v1 with a Spore Crawler, you make three Spore Crawlers. You kill the Banshees, and then your opponent says "Hey, I just made him use all those minerals and gas on those Spore Crawlers. I should shaft him by not making any more air."
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with those 1200 min/gas worth of mutalisks you'll kill those turrets no problem... you don't need more than 2 spore crawlers per mineral line to shut down completely banshee harass. You could also get only one for detection per mineral line and 1 more queen which will serve other purposes throughout the game.
Edit :
On September 15 2010 12:29 Ferrose wrote: Well, from what I've seen, 1v1 a Banshee will beat a Spore Crawler. .
Sorry but... what ??
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On September 15 2010 12:23 imbecile wrote: Was watching the D9 daily, and wondered why he focuses so much on lair to defend against cloaked banshees.
Why do Zerg players avoid spores crawlers at all cost, even against banshees, whereas terran include turrets into their game routinely against mutas?
It can't be just the cost. I mean terrans have marines as a very good early option against mutas that they also can use for offense later, and wouldn't even need the detection, as zerg would need against banshees.
Additionally, Zerg needs to protect a lot less ground with air defense than terran, especially when one basing. So 1-2 spore crawlers per hatch and 1-2 queens should be more than enough.
Doing this means you need less gas early and can focus on droning and eco and getting upgrades in your evo already.
the short answer: people are terrible
the long answer: people are lazy and misunderstand what Spores and static defense is used for. Spores, like Turrets are not meant to destroy Banshees and Mutas because they can't. It's impossible to build enough air defense to cover everything early in the game.
However, with one 1-2 spores in the right place a banshee is going to have a hell of a time harassing your mineral line. The spore is there to buy time for any units in the area to be able to move back and kill it. In this situation that unit will most likely be the Queen. 1 spore + Queen is going to stop banshee harass. With Zergs double Queening now you can minimize the damage.
Just like in BW where Terrans built turrets so that Mutas had to focus fire them to kill it for free reign on the base, the Terran was attempting to buy time for his Marine force to come back and kill the mutas.
Same idea in SC2, just that some players never got the idea.
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On September 15 2010 12:29 Ferrose wrote: Well, from what I've seen, 1v1 a Banshee will beat a Spore Crawler. So it doesn't seem economical. Not to mention that if you get an Overseer, not only can it detect, but it can also do a great job at scouting with the Changeling, and use the Contaminate to stop unit production.
Edit: And Hydras will destroy air pretty quickly too.
Edit 2: So say your opponent rushes with two cloaked Banshees. You're like "oh no!" And since a Banshee wins 1v1 with a Spore Crawler, you make three Spore Crawlers. You kill the Banshees, and then your opponent says "Hey, I just made him use all those minerals and gas on those Spore Crawlers. I should shaft him by not making any more air."
Im assuming your gold/dont play zerg.
A banshee cannot 1v1 a spore crawler. I dont even think banshees can 2v1 a spore crawler.
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On September 15 2010 12:45 Apexplayer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 12:29 Ferrose wrote: Well, from what I've seen, 1v1 a Banshee will beat a Spore Crawler. So it doesn't seem economical. Not to mention that if you get an Overseer, not only can it detect, but it can also do a great job at scouting with the Changeling, and use the Contaminate to stop unit production.
Edit: And Hydras will destroy air pretty quickly too.
Edit 2: So say your opponent rushes with two cloaked Banshees. You're like "oh no!" And since a Banshee wins 1v1 with a Spore Crawler, you make three Spore Crawlers. You kill the Banshees, and then your opponent says "Hey, I just made him use all those minerals and gas on those Spore Crawlers. I should shaft him by not making any more air." Im assuming your gold/dont play zerg. A banshee cannot 1v1 a spore crawler. I dont even think banshees can 2v1 a spore crawler.
Really? Well, I feel dumb.
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sporecrawlers are not nearly as good or cost effective as turrets. You cant; even really compare them.
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On September 15 2010 12:28 Pfeff wrote: I don't use them unless I scout air late...rather have 4 drones that 4 static defenses that may never be used
Not to mention as for stealth detection we do have overseers (which are quite quick with the speed upgrade and it's at a Lair, meaning it doesn't have to wait in line for other important upgrade), which banshees can't even attack
Reactions > Static Defenses that may never be used. I'd rather get an overseer in my base with a couple extra Queens
-Diamond Zerg-
You actually never addressed the question. All the arguments you have against spores also apply against turrets.
And then there are a few reasons that speak for spores that don't apply to turrets.
You don't need many. 1-2 per hatch maximum. You don't need them primarily for the damage, but for the detection, since you have queens. It's definitely cheaper than overseers, which you want to have scouting the enemy base anyway. And you can reposition them, unlike turrets.
Edit: And I just wanna add, that spore crawlers, unlike overseers, can't be quickly and easily killed or driven away from 9 range by Vikings. If they wanna get rid of that detection, terrans need to pay a price for it.
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Okay let's say I am a zerg, I have 2 bases. The terran makes 2 cloaked banshees.
So for 1 base you have 1 queen, wich will lose to the banshee's
Okay so let's start looking at spore crawlers.
Spore crawlers altough they outrange banshee's by 1 are very hard to cover a lot of area with.
Okay cool, so I need 2 spore crawlers to protect my mineral line, and let us say that I put my queen in my mineral line.
So that's for 2 bases 4 spore crawlers, 4*(50+75) = 500 minerals
Okay cool, but remember those spine crawlers at the front? The banshee's can pick them off.
Okay so I make no spine crawlers and I keep all my units in spore crawler range, wich is gonna be hard.
Terran now pushes with like a tank/marine force together with his banshees, what are you gonna do now?
Put down even more spore crawlers? That's already more then 500 mins for a race that has to get a hatch up, tech, a lot of drones, zerglings, queens, etc.
Or I see a starport with a tech lab, I make 4 spore's, the terran see's that, he cancels the cloack, puts the tech lab on a rax or whatever, and just makes 1 viking.
Gz, you just invested a ton into static defense that is useless.
No, i'll just stick with getting my lair in time, wich doesn't cost me anything really, because I need to get the tech up anyway, and it doesn't set me back if he doesn't do it or only does mild harass.
Spore crawlers are only for those "oh shit" moments where you have no other choice, besides those, queens + lair is the far superior choice.
And you cannot compare mild banshee harass to muta harass. Those are 2 different things with their own implications.
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So much hate on the spore crawlers. I think they are better than turrets. When i attack a mineral line with my mutas and there is 2 turrets thats np. If there is 2 spores i think 'shit'. It feels like the spore lasts twice as long as a turret and focusing it down isnt a great idea as you will likly lose 1 or 2 mutas and your enemy has twice as much time to move his ass to stop you, and you have half the time to actually harrass and also with perhaps a unit or 2 less.
I dont know about any other air units though but for me and my mutas id rather take on a turret.
I think one reason why zergs dont make spores is that they will only help you early on. Early on do you want to sacrifice a drone for a building in order to sac another drone for another building that MAY help you out for a small time period. Units are just much better way to go. Actually only consistent pheonix harass makes me drop spores or if im failing in zvz and he has air control over the map. Otherwise queen/unit is faster and more cost effective. Hope this noob made some sense.
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I try not to build spore crawlers earlier on, when those extra drones are critical to getting your economy going. One drone + 150 minerals (could've been 3 more drones) + minerals potentially mined during his active lifetime, actually a pretty big investment, for something that may not see much use.
however, we have to account for banshees, and usually just one spore crawler + your queen in each mineral line is enough to buy time to defend, if your build is ground heavy at some point (or just devoid of anti-air). I almost always make the investment, unless it's extremely clear (like, he doesn't even have a starport clear) he doesn't have air. This isn't easy to scout always, as there may be a point in the game where you're unable to scout his main and don't have an overseer yet. Even worse, you scout a starport with tech lab, assume banshees are coming, and then he drops at the back of your base instead, after you've invested/prepared for banshee harass. It's also pretty easy to swap a tech lab here and there, so you just never know. Just one or two (preferably just ONE) spore crawler(s) should be ok
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@Icx
See my post above. All the reasons you bring up against spores also apply against turrets.
Also, as was mentioned, spores buy you more time than turrets.
And its cheaper to have a spore in your base than to have an overseer sitting idly in your base. The overseers you have you want to have with your army or scouting the enemy.
The abilities of the overseer are useless in your base, whereas a spore crawler provides meat and dps on top of detection.
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Also, the missile turrets for Terran are more effective than the spore crawler for zerg. It takes less time to make, has greater range and does more dps compared to a spore.
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On September 15 2010 12:58 Icx wrote: Okay let's say I am a zerg, I have 2 bases. The terran makes 2 cloaked banshees.
So for 1 base you have 1 queen, wich will lose to the banshee's
Okay so let's start looking at spore crawlers.
Spore crawlers altough they outrange banshee's by 1 are very hard to cover a lot of area with.
Okay cool, so I need 2 spore crawlers to protect my mineral line, and let us say that I put my queen in my mineral line.
So that's for 2 bases 4 spore crawlers, 4*(50+75) = 500 minerals
Okay cool, but remember those spine crawlers at the front? The banshee's can pick them off.
Okay so I make no spine crawlers and I keep all my units in spore crawler range, wich is gonna be hard.
Terran now pushes with like a tank/marine force together with his banshees, what are you gonna do now?
Put down even more spore crawlers? That's already more then 500 mins for a race that has to get a hatch up, tech, a lot of drones, zerglings, queens, etc.
Or I see a starport with a tech lab, I make 4 spore's, the terran see's that, he cancels the cloack, puts the tech lab on a rax or whatever, and just makes 1 viking.
Gz, you just invested a ton into static defense that is useless.
No, i'll just stick with getting my lair in time, wich doesn't cost me anything really, because I need to get the tech up anyway, and it doesn't set me back if he doesn't do it or only does mild harass.
Spore crawlers are only for those "oh shit" moments where you have no other choice, besides those, queens + lair is the far superior choice.
And you cannot compare mild banshee harass to muta harass. Those are 2 different things with their own implications.
This is the perfect example of someone who doesn't get it
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the main issue is that mutalisk take a long time unless in large numbes to kill buildings, and killing a single rax or factory takes forever and has a relatively minor impact, and depots are pretty easy to replace. a group of 3-4 banshees can take down zerg tech extremely fast due to dealing almost 3x as much damage as a mutalisk per banshee. now the only targets in a zerg base are the hatches (take forever to kill), the extractors, the drones, and tech. and zerg tech doesn't take long at all to take down (about half as long as a factory,or less if a spire). so you need more crawlers because you have to cover everything losing a tech structure especially spire sets you back badly, unlike losing a single factory. the workers are the main concern with mutas, and everything but the hatch is a concern vs banshees. you just need MORE to defend against them. thats not to say it's imbalanced. I think spores would be more useful if they rooted in less time than it takes to kill them with a banshee. instead of the outrageously long 12 seconds.
That being said spore crawlers have insane DPS and are pretty much rediculous in groups of 3. like spine crawlers are.
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Baa?21242 Posts
Turrets are basically free since Terran barely has a strain on minerals with MULEs and stuff; Zerg has to lose a Drone for each shitty piss-spraying thing that's useless beyond fending off 2 Banshees.
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On September 15 2010 13:18 flanksteak wrote: +One drone + 150 minerals (could've been 3 more drones) + minerals potentially mined during his active lifetime, actually a pretty big investment.
A spore crawler costs on 75, e.g. 125 with drone. And it's 400 health. The time it takes to kill one spore crawler saves you more drones than that.
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On September 15 2010 13:26 Ace wrote:
This is the perfect example of someone who doesn't get it
And why is that?
I made the decision for myself.
Are 1-2 spore per base worth it?
Or worded in a different way, I spent let's say 300-400minerals on some spores, to get about even.
So when banshee harass comes in, do I lose 300-400 mins worth of drones/tech/whatever that could justify the cost of the spore crawlers? No
So I choose to spend those mins toward actually usefull stuff, and I just deal with the banshee's, and altough I have had some losses against them, these days I deal with them very well.
If the T did a good job harassing me I nowadays lose like a queen and a drone or 2.
But because I didn't have to put all my mins into static defense I have better saturation, I get my lair a bit quicker, and by the time banshee's can actually start doing real damage(if he commits to it) I have the appropriate responses up in time.
Then your other point, you say delay the actuall harass untill your units can come in and defend.
You know what really helps with that?
Good overlord spread so you can see them incoming
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United States7166 Posts
pretty simple, a single turret protects mineral line from several mutas while you need like 3 or 4 spores to protect each base from even 1 banshee, due to attack range
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The real reason is because Mutalisks have 3 range and Banshees have 6. This means that Spores have lower effective range against Banshees than Turrets have against Mutalisks.
Add to that the fact that Spores cost 50 more minerals AND waste a larva AND have lower DPS than turrets... Mutalisks are much better, not because they allow us to actually damage the Terran, just for the sake of holding off the Banshees.
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On September 15 2010 12:34 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 12:23 imbecile wrote: Was watching the D9 daily, and wondered why he focuses so much on lair to defend against cloaked banshees.
Why do Zerg players avoid spores crawlers at all cost, even against banshees, whereas terran include turrets into their game routinely against mutas?
It can't be just the cost. I mean terrans have marines as a very good early option against mutas that they also can use for offense later, and wouldn't even need the detection, as zerg would need against banshees.
Additionally, Zerg needs to protect a lot less ground with air defense than terran, especially when one basing. So 1-2 spore crawlers per hatch and 1-2 queens should be more than enough.
Doing this means you need less gas early and can focus on droning and eco and getting upgrades in your evo already. the short answer: people are terrible the long answer: people are lazy and misunderstand what Spores and static defense is used for. Spores, like Turrets are not meant to destroy Banshees and Mutas because they can't. It's impossible to build enough air defense to cover everything early in the game. However, with one 1-2 spores in the right place a banshee is going to have a hell of a time harassing your mineral line. The spore is there to buy time for any units in the area to be able to move back and kill it. In this situation that unit will most likely be the Queen. 1 spore + Queen is going to stop banshee harass. With Zergs double Queening now you can minimize the damage. Just like in BW where Terrans built turrets so that Mutas had to focus fire them to kill it for free reign on the base, the Terran was attempting to buy time for his Marine force to come back and kill the mutas. Same idea in SC2, just that some players never got the idea.
This is correct, but I would like to add something.
ZvT is pretty broken match-up, and zergs wantsto have every bit of economy, sacrificing 4 drones + more minerals is pretty bad in the current state of the game. Zergs just want to have every last bit of economy they can get, since Terran is a lot more cost-efficient.
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On September 15 2010 13:26 PrinceXizor wrote: everything but the hatch is a concern vs banshees. you just need MORE to defend against them. thats not to say it's imbalanced. I think spores would be more useful if they rooted in less time than it takes to kill them with a banshee. instead of the outrageously long 12 seconds.
That being said spore crawlers have insane DPS and are pretty much rediculous in groups of 3. like spine crawlers are.
But as I said above, a terran base is much more spread out. So you need less spores, and they cover more at the same time, e.g. more damage output in a smaller area against all air harass. And then queens on top of that.
But one thing is right, the rooting time is ridiculous. As is the spine building time.
And a little off topic: Healing for medivacs should be a researchable skill, and sensor towers should work with energy like cloak.
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On September 15 2010 13:40 Mortician wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 12:34 Ace wrote:On September 15 2010 12:23 imbecile wrote: Was watching the D9 daily, and wondered why he focuses so much on lair to defend against cloaked banshees.
Why do Zerg players avoid spores crawlers at all cost, even against banshees, whereas terran include turrets into their game routinely against mutas?
It can't be just the cost. I mean terrans have marines as a very good early option against mutas that they also can use for offense later, and wouldn't even need the detection, as zerg would need against banshees.
Additionally, Zerg needs to protect a lot less ground with air defense than terran, especially when one basing. So 1-2 spore crawlers per hatch and 1-2 queens should be more than enough.
Doing this means you need less gas early and can focus on droning and eco and getting upgrades in your evo already. the short answer: people are terrible the long answer: people are lazy and misunderstand what Spores and static defense is used for. Spores, like Turrets are not meant to destroy Banshees and Mutas because they can't. It's impossible to build enough air defense to cover everything early in the game. However, with one 1-2 spores in the right place a banshee is going to have a hell of a time harassing your mineral line. The spore is there to buy time for any units in the area to be able to move back and kill it. In this situation that unit will most likely be the Queen. 1 spore + Queen is going to stop banshee harass. With Zergs double Queening now you can minimize the damage. Just like in BW where Terrans built turrets so that Mutas had to focus fire them to kill it for free reign on the base, the Terran was attempting to buy time for his Marine force to come back and kill the mutas. Same idea in SC2, just that some players never got the idea. This is correct, but I would like to add something. ZvT is pretty broken match-up, and zergs wantsto have every bit of economy, sacrificing 4 drones + more minerals is pretty bad in the current state of the game. Zergs just want to have every last bit of economy they can get, since Terran is a lot more cost-efficient.
Spore crawlers cost more than Missile turrets. The larvae is a big thing - you have to rebuild that drone. That means every spore crawler is a unit you're NOT building - like a hydralisk. 150/0 vs 100/50 for a spore crawler vs a hydralisk. Most players would rather have the hydras.
Saying 'all zerg are terrible and are wrong and should listen to me' is so egotistic I won't comment on it.
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On September 15 2010 13:33 Icx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 13:26 Ace wrote:
This is the perfect example of someone who doesn't get it And why is that? I made the decision for myself. Are 1-2 spore per base worth it? Or worded in a different way, I spent let's say 300-400minerals on some spores, to get about even. So when banshee harass comes in, do I lose 300-400 mins worth of drones/tech/whatever that could justify the cost of the spore crawlers? No
Be careful. I have been banned once for two weeks for getting numbers less wrong.
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Are you just making comments just to feel yourself smart or are you just starting to troll by now?
I was giving an approximation of their cost.
4Spore crawlers = 4*(75+50) = 500
3 Spore crawlers = 3* (75+50) = 375
2 spore crawlers = 250
So if you put somewhere between 2 and 4 spore crawlers down, how is 400minerals a bad approximation in cost?
Please tell me where I made a mistake then?
400 minerals approximatly in the case multiple banshees might come just to try to stall them when they switch bases while you have other means to deal with it that don't make you sink a ton of resources in static defense?
How in any way is that good?
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On September 15 2010 13:42 fdsdfg wrote: Spore crawlers cost more than Missile turrets. The larvae is a big thing - you have to rebuild that drone. That means every spore crawler is a unit you're NOT building - like a hydralisk. 150/0 vs 100/50 for a spore crawler vs a hydralisk. Most players would rather have the hydras.
Saying 'all zerg are terrible and are wrong and should listen to me' is so egotistic I won't comment on it.
That might be the main reason. But it's a bad reason IMHO.
But you shouldn't compare it to hydras. Because the issue is detection, not dealing damage. If only the damage dealing was the issue, you have queens in the base anyway.
So you should compare it to having an idle overseer in each base. Is a lot more expensive, and a lot less helpful than a spore crawler. Even if you have lair already, you could have had a mutalisk more instead of an overseer when you use a spore crawler.
A larva is no argument, since every detection option costs you a larva at one point. And losing a drone is also not really an argument, since that is remade in 17s.
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Spore crawlers are alright. 2 Banshee will kill a Spore Crawler though. If you micro a bit you can kill a Spore with 0 losses. Both Banshee will be in red health though.
Still it is not all that great as Banshee do not have to be used for harass. They are fantastic in the main army. 4 Banshee would kill 6 Hydra even without cloak. They are sick dps machines. 4 Banshee are almost an even fight with 6 Stalkers too.
You simply can not cover every area with Spore Crawlers but they can be used if you want to defend one particular area where you do not want to move your army there.
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spore crawlers are more about detection than anti air.. imo
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On September 15 2010 13:56 imbecile wrote: So you should compare it to having an idle overseer in each base. Is a lot more expensive, and a lot less helpful than a spore crawler..
How are spore crawlers more usefull then a spore crawler?
You are confined to their detection range, and as long as you don't have an overseer (because at any point you want to move out you will have to get an overseer anyway, on top of making those spore crawlers)
When the banshee harass is over, what are you gonna do with your sporecrawlers? Absolutely nothing
What are you gonna do with your overseer after the banshee harass? You can scout at a faster speed, you can drop changelings, and you can go contaminate stuff.
hell even when the banshee harass is happening, what are you gonna do?
Defend, defend and and defend untill you finally have an overseer flying around, or hope that the Terran is stupid enough to make a mistake and suicide them.
What am I doing with my earlier overseer and no spores? I kill the banshee's
And then in terms of cost.
You have to get an overseer anyway, so the difference between us is 50mins/100 gas for the "extra overseer" and you putting down 2-4 turrets.
Seeing my earlier post, wich one of the two is more cost-effective seeing what I wrote in this post?
And I don't know about you, but in the early game I am actually bound by minerals untill I have a good drone-count up, and making spore crawlers even when banshee's are coming are a big investment.
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It's the same reason you never see Banshees as a main army unit and you do see Mutas in that role. Banshees are effective in small numbers and early in the game, and are not something you continue to produce. Mutas are terrible in small numbers and are massed well into the game, so the threat of Mutas hitting all around your base is present for much longer. Turrets aren't a waste because they continue to be useful. Spore crawlers cost a drone and resources for basically a single point in the game, a point in the game at which Zerg cannot afford to lose money.
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Rather just get an extra queen and an overseer then a spore. The queen and overseer can actually be useful after the air is dealt with and a spore cant. Spore Crawlers just are not worth it imo when Zerg has Queens that do the same thing but don't detect.
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![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v459/Reki/watt.gif)
you guys are forgetting that zerg's turret has legs. If the early 1-2 banshees pokes something else outside of the spore's detection range while cloaked, just stand up and replant closer to the banshees. Yes I am aware that it takes until tomorrow for them to take root but I think a lot of people are not aware that the spore instantly gets detector even while "downrooting" is in progress. The crawlers move faster than overseers and banshees so long as they're on creep. Your 2+ queens are more than enough to chase them away until the 5 mutas come out (make that 6 mutas since you didn't buy an early overseer). Look ma! no gas to beat banshee rush!
pic unrelated
User was warned for this post
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On September 15 2010 13:42 imbecile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 13:26 PrinceXizor wrote: everything but the hatch is a concern vs banshees. you just need MORE to defend against them. thats not to say it's imbalanced. I think spores would be more useful if they rooted in less time than it takes to kill them with a banshee. instead of the outrageously long 12 seconds.
That being said spore crawlers have insane DPS and are pretty much rediculous in groups of 3. like spine crawlers are. But as I said above, a terran base is much more spread out. So you need less spores, and they cover more at the same time, e.g. more damage output in a smaller area against all air harass. And then queens on top of that. But one thing is right, the rooting time is ridiculous. As is the spine building time. And a little off topic: Healing for medivacs should be a researchable skill, and sensor towers should work with energy like cloak. The terran base only has to protect one small area dispite being spread out, zerg has to protect one slightly larger area. terran can easily build turrets around their base, zerg must first have creep there. turrets are range 7 (with upgrade) spores are range 5 i think? i'd rather make a 2nd queen, since they gives me the creep AND the attack vs air. but yeah spores are GOOD but it's just that you need 4 spores on most maps to protect your workers, both geysers, and your tech (if all packed tightly).
There is no good reason to invest that much in static defenses, since most of the time banshees are hardly a threat because of units like the queen and infestor, except for gimmicky rushes that leave the terran weak anyway. unlike mutalisks which are a standard threat throughout the game.
And then another post you claimed that spores are not for the damage (you state we have queens for that) but one of the main points of your argument is how terrans get turrets vs mutas all the time, they sure as hell are not making turrets to detect the mutas.
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@Icx
You only really need 1-2 spores to cover all your base structures/workers in detection, if you cluster it all together and don't try to hide anything, for the whole period of time where cloaked banshee harass is a big concern.
You have queens to cover it all with damage.
So yes, I was talking about 1-2 spores. You about 2-4.
But even so I'd consider it more cost effective for defensive detection than Overseers. Because overseers die a lot more and quicker to just one viking (and can be driven away and screw up your coverage). So you need to remake them a lot.
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On September 15 2010 13:35 Zelniq wrote: pretty simple, a single turret protects mineral line from several mutas while you need like 3 or 4 spores to protect each base from even 1 banshee, due to attack range
Yup.
You'll need 3 crawlers to protect a base sufficiently from banshees.
3 crawlers is 3 larva, 3 drones, and 300 minerals.
or get an overseer + 3 queens which cost no larva, no drones, and 450 minerals. it might be worth getting 1 crawler just for detection, but you'd still need queens to kill it and the banshee will be able to find something else to shoot at, it just won't be your drones.
Also we don't know if a banshee is actually coming, because it's impossible to scout a terran before lair tech. So overseer = scouting + detection.
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There was some math posted a while go, but overall spore crawlers have about half of the damage per second of missile turrets. Spore Crawlers also cost 125 minerals (75 + 50 for drone, then 50 more if you include replacing the drone) to make and take 45 seconds to build. Missile turrets cost 100 minerals and take 25 seconds to build.
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@Ixc again
What are you gonna do when your overseer is in the enemy base or with your army and banshees come to harass? In the few seconds you need to get the overseer there, they will destroy more drones than all those crawlers have cost.
And what if he has 1-2 vikings with him and intercepts? Now your overseer is worth shit.
Every 2.5 seconds you can't see and attack just one attacking banshee you lose another drone.
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On September 15 2010 13:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Turrets are basically free since Terran barely has a strain on minerals with MULEs and stuff; Zerg has to lose a Drone for each shitty piss-spraying thing that's useless beyond fending off 2 Banshees.
Exactly this. Terrans don't need to worry about extra minerals, while Zergs are spending larvae and drones on this shit. Terrans can always afford moar Turrets (especially considering how good strong they are), because if the Turret means they don't have to scan, that's another 300 minerals they gain.
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And what if, what if, what if.
What if the banshee snipes the burrowing spore and then goes back to repair and comes back?
That's just the whole point. Overseer's have those uses, and that is a good thing.
I have the possibility of doing that, i don't have to fly my overseer there, but I can do that.
Gl doing anything else with your spore crawlers other then sitting in your base after the banshees are gone.
I have the option of actually moving out, you cannot move out at all.
And you know what happens after I get an overseer? The banshees die since I actually have something (since I am at lair tech already) units and the capability to hunt down the banshees.
You can do nothing more then me, you can actually do much less, and if it is cost-effective or not, i'm tired of discussing this, but look at all the other replies that have been made.
Especially since you change your arguments every 2 posts, one moment they are like turrets meant to take them out, and 2 posts after you have changed it to only being detection.
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On September 15 2010 14:35 Icx wrote: And what if, what if, what if.
...
Especially since you change your arguments every 2 posts, one moment they are like turrets meant to take them out, and 2 posts after you have changed it to only being detection.
You didn't seem to notice that I was parroting your line of hypothetical scenarios, that you considered arguments.
And sorry if more than two uses for spores are too much for you to keep in your head 
I'm gonna tell you what happens when a cloaked banshee arrives and I have a crawler and a queen in my base, since you like such scenarios.
It will retreat and not be able to do anything. He will have wasted a few hundred minerals and gas to get it, and sacrificed economy to get it fast. And if he wants to harass at all, he will have to invest a lot more.
I have spent 125 minerals and lost 17s of mining time of a drone, so that's about 150 minerals overall.
And I didn't need to spend any gas, probably still only have 1 extractor (maybe none if I feel cheeky) and be way ahead in workers and he will have a big upgraded zergling/roach army at his front with not much army and upgrades himself.
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How are those hypothetical scenario's?
A overseer can move to the other's base to scout if needed, how is that hypothetical?
Oh btw, if you aren't getting that gas, then what do you do with the evo chamber? That's an optimized build right there then if you just make the evo chamber.
Or what do you actually do then? When you see a starport already start the evo chamber then?
While your at it, try to find 3+ pro replays where they use spore crawlers to hold off banshee's, gl.
Anyway, i'm tired of this, you still think that it is a good idea, go ahead and go rely on spore crawlers against banshee's. No point in arguing anymore since your just constantly changing facts anyway, it went from 1-2 spore crawlers per base to 1-2 spore crawlers in total to only getting 1 spore crawler ever.
And I like to actually get a lair on a reasonable time and get access to bling speed/roach speed/muta's/hydra's/overseers/drop/nydus (yes drop for LT) instead of having some build that stays away from lair-tech for a longer time and rely's on spore crawlers and just ineffiecency for just no gain (well I see no gain at all)
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One Spore per hatchery + one or more queens per hatchery (generally get 3 queens per 2 base early on ZvT) works excellent. You don't have to worry about rushing the lair and overseer (which will hurt economy), or following the banshees that are faster than overseer.
The thing about spore crawlers is while they are limited to 7 attacking range, queens have 9 attack range, and the crawler's detection range is 11. This means as long as you have good unit control you can hit banshees without them hitting the queen (much at least) in an 11 unit radius from the spore's location.
250 minerals is not a big investment to protect from 150/150 cloak upgrade as well as the cost of 2+ banshees.
I think the reasoning behind people not getting the spores is 1. they probably don't want to start upgrading that early 2. they might not know for sure if banshees are comming, and don't want to invest in useless units. with a lair up it only takes several seconds to get the detector if you need it (that way it's only spent if necessary)
Problem is, it's pretty hard to defend with just queens if they save up to 3 banshees, in fact it's impossible since 3 banshees beat 3 queens, and I don't think you can get more than 3 queens in the time it takes to get 3 banshees, assuming one doesn't do something like hatch first build.
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If you know banshees are coming and you don't have anti air up yet, I think it's a descent option to throw up a spore or 2, especially if you already have the evo chamber. If you don't have enough to defend then it's gg right there (or a major dent in your economy). So if it's necessary, I will get spores, but I usually don't have to.
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It's called experimenting.
I just find it so strange that Zerg is so heavily dependent on getting a lot of gas and teching fast, because they have quite a few units and buildings that don't need much or any gas at all. Having to get so much gas and tech so fast just eats into their ability to push economy, which is supposed to be one of their strengths.
Spine/Spore Crawlers are a way to enable go that economical path. Could be worth exploring. Because the current consensus doesn't seem to work that well either.
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Spore Crawlers cost 75+50 = 125 Minerals. Turrets cost 100 Minerals. Spore Crawlers deal 15 damage a shot. Turrets deal 12+12 = 24 damage a shot. Both shoot at the same rate, and both have 7 Range (although Turret range can be upgraded).
That answer your question? Turrets are much, much more cost-efficient than Spore Crawlers. Plus, Zerg naturally has a Queen at every base as AA.
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has anyone thought about just getting a single unburrowed sporecrwaler for detection? its 125 minerals for a detection that can run around and detect everything on creep with queens for dps you should be save with a single unburrwed sporecrawler per base
havent seen anyone doing this- is there anything bad about this? its 125 minerals for detection everywere on creep - without lair doesnt seem to be bad to me
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@Tiwalun
Only detect when burrowed.
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On September 15 2010 12:57 imbecile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 12:28 Pfeff wrote: I don't use them unless I scout air late...rather have 4 drones that 4 static defenses that may never be used
Not to mention as for stealth detection we do have overseers (which are quite quick with the speed upgrade and it's at a Lair, meaning it doesn't have to wait in line for other important upgrade), which banshees can't even attack
Reactions > Static Defenses that may never be used. I'd rather get an overseer in my base with a couple extra Queens
-Diamond Zerg- You actually never addressed the question. All the arguments you have against spores also apply against turrets. And then there are a few reasons that speak for spores that don't apply to turrets. You don't need many. 1-2 per hatch maximum. You don't need them primarily for the damage, but for the detection, since you have queens. It's definitely cheaper than overseers, which you want to have scouting the enemy base anyway. And you can reposition them, unlike turrets. Edit: And I just wanna add, that spore crawlers, unlike overseers, can't be quickly and easily killed or driven away from 9 range by Vikings. If they wanna get rid of that detection, terrans need to pay a price for it.
Yes, I did. If spore crawlers did not take away a drone I would build them more often. Otherwise I am wasting minerals on static defenses and a drone that may never be used, like I said in my post
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On September 15 2010 15:17 Xapti wrote: Problem is, it's pretty hard to defend with just queens if they save up to 3 banshees, in fact it's impossible since 3 banshees beat 3 queens, and I don't think you can get more than 3 queens in the time it takes to get 3 banshees, assuming one doesn't do something like hatch first build.
It's called Transfusion
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Spore crawlers should be range 8, or just cost less 25/50 minerals plus drone cost maybe both.
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Wow, flame war leading to nothing.
Well, on topic: I thing spores can be pretty helpful for early defenses working with queens. That against Terran. Against Protoss I think they are even better. Phoenix harass can be really damaging when defending only with queens because phoenixes can lift them up. So spores protect the overlords against the phoenixes and, more importantly, keeps observers away.
One question though: do spores still detect while uprooted? I don't think so, but didn't try it yet.
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On September 15 2010 13:35 Zelniq wrote: pretty simple, a single turret protects mineral line from several mutas while you need like 3 or 4 spores to protect each base from even 1 banshee, due to attack range
Zelniq got it right, all this theorycrafting is quite useless. The only matchup I get spores to delay air harass is against zerg, because mutas still have the short range.
Both terran (banshee) and protoss (void ray) have new strong air to ground units with a good range, so unless you stack your spores, they can attack one at a time.
a) they can take out one spore and shut down that part of the mineral line b) they can harass whatever isn't covered by the spores
So it's no wonder why we just want to get fast mobile anti-air.
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On September 15 2010 13:35 Zelniq wrote: pretty simple, a single turret protects mineral line from several mutas while you need like 3 or 4 spores to protect each base from even 1 banshee, due to attack range
Simple answer is Attack Range.
Look at what your using those buildings to counter/prevent.
Any anti-air turrets are gonna be sufficient against mutas due to muta's short range.
Banshees only have 1 shorter range than spores I believe thus it's easier for Banshees to just find uncoverable buildings to attack.
If your using it for detection, why bother sac'ing a drone + having to uproot and re-root to chase the banshees around, while you can just morph an overseer (save a drone) and right click a banshee for it to follow. Then concentrate on micro'ing to kill it.
Spores are fine. I regularly invest in 1 spore per base vs' protoss to fight off phoenixes from stargate openers. I also invest in multiples for ZvZ to feel safe against the counter-attack from mutas.
Once again, that's because of what the static is meant to counter.
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A lot of people who believe defense is better against an air rush aren't taking into consideration the time value in their cost/benefit analysis. It pays off significantly in the long run to get the mobile units until the cost of the static defense becomes negligible. Example: building tons of missile turrets to defend against a mutalisk harass when you don't have enough minerals to support normal production is silly. The cost/benefit ratio becomes much better once you've fielded an army, have extra minerals, and are about to push out. That's when you place the static defense to free up your army. The same principle applies to zerg. Early game zerg is always ridiculously mineral heavy, but late game zerg is significantly gas heavy. As such, I would argue it's much better to use gas in the early game to replace mineral requiring functions if possible, and vice versa in the late game. The cost of a drone and spore crawler before a mid-late game push is drastically less than and early game defense.
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On September 15 2010 14:54 imbecile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 14:35 Icx wrote: And what if, what if, what if.
...
Especially since you change your arguments every 2 posts, one moment they are like turrets meant to take them out, and 2 posts after you have changed it to only being detection.
You didn't seem to notice that I was parroting your line of hypothetical scenarios, that you considered arguments. And sorry if more than two uses for spores are too much for you to keep in your head  I'm gonna tell you what happens when a cloaked banshee arrives and I have a crawler and a queen in my base, since you like such scenarios. It will retreat and not be able to do anything. He will have wasted a few hundred minerals and gas to get it, and sacrificed economy to get it fast. And if he wants to harass at all, he will have to invest a lot more. I have spent 125 minerals and lost 17s of mining time of a drone, so that's about 150 minerals overall. And I didn't need to spend any gas, probably still only have 1 extractor (maybe none if I feel cheeky) and be way ahead in workers and he will have a big upgraded zergling/roach army at his front with not much army and upgrades himself.
Wow. How did I miss this gem of a post. Everything you said here is wrong.
If a cloak banshee flies in and only sees 1 spre + 1 queen, it'll just fly around trying to find angles not covered by the spore. He doesn't even have to do any damage. The fact that he's forcing you to stay inside your base next to the crawler is enough (and the drone->spore too). You are NOT gonna be moving out with that 'big roach/zergling army' until you have those overseers on the field. If your gonna get overseers anyways, why bother with spores? I also don't see how your gonna be 'way ahead' in workers if you have a 'big upgraded' zergling/roach army (which will get detroyed by the time it reaches the opponent's base). How are you gonna be ahead if your sac'ing drones to make spores?
Also, where on earth did you get he 17s of lost mining time? You do realise drones don't come back after morphing into a spore right?
Wow, do you even play Z? Do you even have the game? Or are you just theorycrafting w/o the game?
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Lair tech does a lot more for you than just provide AA and stealth detection, so rushing for Lair tech is really a pretty good idea.
That aside, Spore Crawlers are pretty decent, but I wouldn't build them as my sole detection and protection against banshees, etc. Instead, if I know the opponent is going heavy on air, I like to throw up a few spore crawlers at my bases right before I push out. These might not actually come into play at anytime, but they offer me the peace of mind against air counter attacks. It's amazing to me how often players with a large air army will retreat when they see only a few spore crawlers, even though often their force could probably kill the static D and then wreck havoc. I see this with mutas vs turrets all the time too.
Anyway, if you are worried about banshees as zerg, rush to lair tech. This is much better than spore crawlers because you get both mobile detection and mobile AA. On top of that, you now have everything else that Lair tech offers, such as speed upgrades for roaches and banelings, burrow, infestors, nydus, spire, and of course, access to Hive for its units too.
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You can't be offensive at all without the lair if your opponent has banshees. the only T1 AA zerg have are queens and those are useless on offense. You're basically handing your opponenty a free ticket to double expo.
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Spores are only useful against banshees, they also cost tons and need to be supplemented with queens to be any use. Turrets are cheaper, and he is more likely to commit to mutas after a 250/200 spire +5-6 mutas. Lair tech not only allows you to scout banshees, but also defend the cloak. 150/100 is a lot cheaper than evo+2-4 spores and overseer scouts just how much he is committing to the banshees. Spores should only be used against a heavy banshee force, usually T's get a few to get a few drone kills/queen snipes when the zerg is unprepared.
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The cost of getting decent spore crawler coverage includes up to 4 drones, a pretty big hit for some static d. Think of which Zerg would prefer, losing 4 drones while getting mutalisks/overseers out, or losing 4 drones and spending minerals for defenses that will do nothing to help kill your opponent later on.
Oh, and a 5th drone for the fast evo chamber. Things start adding up.
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Oh flaming! I'm so excited 
On September 16 2010 01:26 me_viet wrote: If your gonna get overseers anyways, why bother with spores? If you are gonna get Goliaths, why bother getting marines? I mean, both can shoot.
On September 16 2010 01:26 me_viet wrote: How are you gonna be ahead if your sac'ing drones to make spores? Because you don't need as much gas, and drones on gas. Cutting gas to get more workers is a pretty standard technique. You can do that with spores, he can't when teching to cloaked banshees.
And as mentioned above, just the time it takes to kill a spore crawler with 400hp saves you 8 drones. The other two choices he has is to stop harassing, or engage in high risk, high micro effort, low reward harass.
On September 16 2010 01:26 me_viet wrote: Also, where on earth did you get he 17s of lost mining time? You do realise drones don't come back after morphing into a spore right?
Yes, drones don't come back on their own. But you can't count the drone double. A spore crawler either costs 125 minerals and 17s lost mining time to remake that drone. Or it costs 75 minerals, and 50mins and 17s of lost mining time to remake that drone.
And counting the larva as disadvantage in comparison to an overseer is not right either, because the overseer costs a larva too.
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So I'm curious...why did you even post this thread if you are just going to argue with everyone who says anything in it? You obviously have your own opinion, so go play your games with your hindering strat and stop arguing with people that are just trying to help you
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it seems like, with lair tech, there is no reason to get a spore instead of a overseer (unless you are absolutely desperate to save 100 gas). an overseer doesn't cost a drone. its a lot more mobile. It has a faster build time than a spore. You already have sufficient AA from your queen(s) to stop a few (edit: 1) banshees, and with banshees as mobile as they are, the preferred solution to stopping larger numbers of them would be hydras (or maybe mutas).
if you don't have lair tech, and are getting pounded by 1 or 2 cloaked banshees? I don't have much pity for you. ignore, for a moment, the difficulties in getting enough gas for 2 cloaked banshees as fast as possible, and just look at upgrade times. cloak requires 110 seconds, starport requires 50 seconds, techlab requires 25 (maybe less if you do an add-on swap). Lair requires 80 secs + 17 secs for overseer build time. Terrans can start on that path after building a factory, which will NEVER be done sooner than the Zerg's spawning pool. So if you don't have lair tech when cloaked banshees arrive, wtf have you been doing?
overseers can get shot down by vikings, but they're a lot faster than overlords (I assume you didn't get the upgrade), and tougher (1 more armor), and you have no reason to scatter them around the map where they can be isolated. They could, conceivably, drive them away from your mineral lines, and then cloaked banshees pick off some workers. but then the AA that would have killed the banshees kills or drives off the viks, then the overseer returns, and then the banshees die. Does the extra harass time justify the cost of those vikings? I doubt it.
There does not seem to be a reason, therefore, to ever stop banshee cloak with a spore crawler. I would not say the same thing about ghosts, however.
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due to banshee range, if they are careful they only ever have to fight 1 spore at a time.
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On September 16 2010 03:51 Pfeff wrote: So I'm curious...why did you even post this thread if you are just going to argue with everyone who says anything in it? You obviously have your own opinion, so go play your games with your hindering strat and stop arguing with people that are just trying to help you
This is a [D] thread, not an [H] thread.
I'm just bothered when strategies/units are so outright dismissed without even thinking about it.
I'm not at all saying that Overseers are bad and you should never get to lair and get them (lol). They obviously are not (although in comparison to obs and ravens they are).
Overseers have advantages and disadvantages. Just as spore crawlers. And what you use should be determined by what you wanna do and what situation you are in.
And I found that contrast quite intriguig, between terrans getting turrets virtually every time Zerg gets a Spire, but Zergs never getting spore crawlers when terrans get starport. And if that could be one of the reasons terrans dominate zerg so much.
And quite a bit of info and thoughts ended up in this thread. Some people have read it, and maybe someone is trying new things now.
The arguing is just added entertainment value. A little bit good-natured hostility, arrogance and mean-spirited silliness can be great fun, especially if it doesn't devolve into cussing. If the opportunity presents, I jump at it.
Who doesn't hate Toby?
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On September 16 2010 04:28 imbecile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:51 Pfeff wrote: So I'm curious...why did you even post this thread if you are just going to argue with everyone who says anything in it? You obviously have your own opinion, so go play your games with your hindering strat and stop arguing with people that are just trying to help you This is a [D] thread, not an [H] thread. I'm just bothered when strategies/units are so outright dismissed without even thinking about it. I'm not at all saying that Overseers are bad and you should never get to lair and get them (lol). They obviously are not (although in comparison to obs and ravens they are). Overseers have advantages and disadvantages. Just as spore crawlers. And what you use should be determined by what you wanna do and what situation you are in. And I found that contrast between terrans getting turrets virtually every time Zerg gets a Spire, but Zergs never getting spore crawlers when terrans get starport. And if that could be one of the reasons terrans dominate zerg so much.
Main thing, as pointed out by zelniq, is the range of 3 on mutas v range of 6 on banshees. Spores are pretty much useless because they can't cover each other.
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On September 16 2010 04:33 Palmar wrote: Main thing, as pointed out by zelniq, is the range of 3 on mutas v range of 6 on banshees. Spores are pretty much useless because they can't cover each other.
Agree, the range differential is a big reason. But since there are always queens present, they don't need to cover for each other.
They are just quick and cheap detection with a lot of added meat and dps and zero delay in coverage and micro demand.
So if your opponent gets any cloaked units, I'd always go spore for defensive detection. A lot faster reaction rates, a lot cheaper, a lot more resilient and always an deterrent. And frees up your overseers for offensive detection and scouting. Zerg have enough problems with scouting already anyway.
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On September 16 2010 04:28 imbecile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:51 Pfeff wrote: So I'm curious...why did you even post this thread if you are just going to argue with everyone who says anything in it? You obviously have your own opinion, so go play your games with your hindering strat and stop arguing with people that are just trying to help you This is a [D] thread, not an [H] thread. I'm just bothered when strategies/units are so outright dismissed without even thinking about it. I'm not at all saying that Overseers are bad and you should never get to lair and get them (lol). They obviously are not (although in comparison to obs and ravens they are). Overseers have advantages and disadvantages. Just as spore crawlers. And what you use should be determined by what you wanna do and what situation you are in. And I found that contrast quite intriguig, between terrans getting turrets virtually every time Zerg gets a Spire, but Zergs never getting spore crawlers when terrans get starport. And if that could be one of the reasons terrans dominate zerg so much. And quite a bit of info and thoughts ended up in this thread. Some people have read it, and maybe someone is trying new things now. The arguing is just added entertainment value. A little bit good-natured hostility, arrogance and mean-spirited silliness can be great fun, especially if it doesn't devolve into cussing. If the opportunity presents, I jump at it. Who doesn't hate Toby?
Alright, fair enough lol i rescind my previous statement
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Terran can viably tech switch to other units, such as medivacs vikings, with no tech expense lost (switch tech lab with another building, like factory, or keep it in case you need raven, etc.). Zerg can not cost effectively switch out of mutas for a while after investing in them.
Yeah, T having tech switch potential while Z having little-to-none. Pretty much how TvZ is early/midgame. Idk why everyone says it's the opposite.
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The simple answer is Turrets are infinitely more useful against Mutalisks than Spore Crawlers are against anything in the air, simply due to AtG range in this game.
What used to be 4 range in SC is now 6 range in SC2. This makes static defenses (with 7 range) basically useless as they can't even defend a building that they are literally touching.
Spore Crawlers aren't used because they are a waste of money unless T is an idiot.
Turrets are used because they can destroy Mutalisks at a disturbing rate.
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I don't see why people claim you need 3 spores per base to defeat 1 banshee.
The spore is there to allow your queens to see & shoot the thing, and help them queen not getting too low on health. You're not supposed to shower your base with spore crawlers.
The crawlers are also decent even if you got lair, if you know you're against a player who'll persistently harass you with air throughout the game. Otherwise your only alternative is more queens or more hydras/corruptors sitting there, which takes up supply and is costly.
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What's shitty is when banshee rush is a surprise, and you manage spores up in your mineral lines but lose your queens because the spores weren't QUITE up in time, so since banshee range is so long, he ignores the two spores and kill the hatch. T_T.
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One spore is usualy enough, 2 is very safe. With the queen it's dissuasive enough. I think you can't just make calculation based on cost. Being safe from air harass let you focus on micro/macro better and don't force your unit composition (unless he uses a mass air army obv). When I watch phoenixwerra's stream (who is btw 10 times better, and 10 time less hyped than cella), he always put 2 spores/mineral line when facing a air harass risk.
And well, except in very early game, since when minerals are a problem for zergs ? It's very standard for a zerg (even the very good ones) to have 1-4k excess minerals. Not that they have poor macro, but they are so often gaz-limited. edit : last part not very relevant since air harass is not really a mid game issue
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They are avoided because we have hard time justifying them. Most of the time you will see 1 or 2 in key locations as a deterrent more then an actual "this is my defense". Just something to make the player rethink how they are going to attack.
Build Drone for Spore: 50 mins Spore: 75 mins Build drone to replace drone lost: 50 mins
In order to not take a hit on the economy, you are spending 175 minerals. A spore only does 15 dmg per shot. So it is a good deterent, but can be easily overwhelmed if a player wants to get through.
Terran's build missile turrets in most games because they are awesome. Only cost 100 minerals, do 24 damage, and are able to have 8 range (with upgrade) which will out-range most air units with ease.
For the most part, that is why Zerg's don't use a ton of Spores, and Terran's use a lot of Turrets. It is a much better investment for terran then it is zerg.
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Rather than all the reasons people put forth i think it really has more to do with scouting. Spore crawlers are definitely cost effective...125 minerals vs 150 min 100 gas. But unfortunately its hard to scout, and preemptively putting down spore crawlers would do more harm then good. Once you see them though its definitely worth putting at least one down at each mineral line to protect your drones. (remember they 2 shot drones and fire insanely fast), and if they got cloak rather than making 3-4 overseers it would generally be better to just making 1-2 for your army and adding even more spores to counter the 200/200 investment in cloak. After all, gas is much more important and spores are only minerals.
tldr: spores are great since so much gas is being used by your opp, but early game cant scout banshee tech so dont know if theyre needed or not.
PS banshees cant harass if you have mutas, so spores are unnecessary at that point.
On September 16 2010 06:44 Runnit wrote: They are avoided because we have hard time justifying them. Most of the time you will see 1 or 2 in key locations as a deterrent more then an actual "this is my defense". Just something to make the player rethink how they are going to attack.
Build Drone for Spore: 50 mins Spore: 75 mins Build drone to replace drone lost: 50 mins
In order to not take a hit on the economy, you are spending 175 minerals. A spore only does 15 dmg per shot. So it is a good deterent, but can be easily overwhelmed if a player wants to get through.
Terran's build missile turrets in most games because they are awesome. Only cost 100 minerals, do 24 damage, and are able to have 8 range (with upgrade) which will out-range most air units with ease.
For the most part, that is why Zerg's don't use a ton of Spores, and Terran's use a lot of Turrets. It is a much better investment for terran then it is zerg. and this is just dumb...
also all static defense is a deterrent; only bronze noobs make enough to stand on its own.
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Look at the detection alternatives for terran. Ravens are high tech/gas, and 1 sweep costs 270 minerals in mules. Turrets are only 100 each and synergize very well with marines since they can detect farther than they can shoot (turret range 7, turret sight 11).
Meanwhile, zerg has little other option for detection other than overseers. Banshees can always be transferred to the main army. For zerg, overseers are needed to deal with this, for terran, a few sweeps can assist the army until enough time passes to easily get ravens.
Additionally, the terran army is less mobile than the zerg army. If air harass attacks while you are out, you need the turrets in place to distract while you move your thors/marines home. If zerg is attacked by they can get the army home quicker (and the overseer quicker still). Combined with having a queen at the base, this is often sufficient.
Finally, the crawler costs 25 minerals more than the turret, takes 22 seconds more to build (30s for spore crawler + 17s for drone, vs 25s for turret), and sets the zerg player back one precious larva.
I think what it really comes down to is each races options for detection. In zerg, you have the overlords (and probably overlord speed) anyways, so an overseer costs you 50/100, takes only 17 seconds, and uses no larva. For terran, the raven requires more tech, costs 100/200, and uses the extremely valuable production queue of a starport + techlab for 60 seconds.
One final pointer is that banshee harass often comes as a surprise. If you have lair when the banshees hit, it takes 30 seconds to build a crawler (which the banshee can kill off while it morphs) and only 17 seconds to make the overseer (which the banshee cannot target).
Take what you will from that. Some people in this thread have suggested that no one uses spore crawlers because they are all morons. I'd like to think that the pros know what they are doing, and I wouldn't take these posters too seriously. We might find some uses for them down the road as the metagame evolves, or they might even receive a buff at some point. I really don't know.
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On September 16 2010 06:44 Runnit wrote: They are avoided because we have hard time justifying them. Most of the time you will see 1 or 2 in key locations as a deterrent more then an actual "this is my defense". Just something to make the player rethink how they are going to attack.
Build Drone for Spore: 50 mins Spore: 75 mins Build drone to replace drone lost: 50 mins
In order to not take a hit on the economy, you are spending 175 minerals. A spore only does 15 dmg per shot. So it is a good deterent, but can be easily overwhelmed if a player wants to get through.
Terran's build missile turrets in most games because they are awesome. Only cost 100 minerals, do 24 damage, and are able to have 8 range (with upgrade) which will out-range most air units with ease.
For the most part, that is why Zerg's don't use a ton of Spores, and Terran's use a lot of Turrets. It is a much better investment for terran then it is zerg.
You counted the drone twice. If you built the drone FOR the spore crawler (as you stated) then it doesn't need to be replaced, because none of your harvesting drones were used up. 125 min for spore crawler.
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On September 15 2010 12:34 cArn- wrote: with those 1200 min/gas worth of mutalisks you'll kill those turrets no problem...
Are you sure about that? with SCV repair those turrets are pretty freaking hard to kill.
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If you know in 60 sec your opponent is going, to banshee you. Get a spore. But you really don't know. Don't get it. It's not that different saying, you shouldn't 8 pool every game because your opponent might 6 pool you.
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It all basically comes down to scouting. If I scout banshees before my mutas then i pop down 1-2 crawlers for safety. Otherwise I will morph an overseer and rape them with my mutas. As for toss if I scout phoenix haras then I always pop a spore at each base.
If I fail to scout them I will start another queen, pop 3 crawlers and cancel the one he targets before it dies. If he targets drones then spores complete, if he targets the spores then hopefully its delayed until mutas pop.
Obviously anything is cost effective if it prevents your economy from getting raped.
As for whether pre-emptive spores are worth it? Most zergs have excess minerals anyway so if thats you then why the hell not? Especially if you spawn on a short air rush map/location they are effective at deterring drops as well.
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On September 16 2010 11:37 Ghost-z wrote: As for whether pre-emptive spores are worth it? Most zergs have excess minerals anyway so if thats you then why the hell not? Especially if you spawn on a short air rush map/location they are effective at deterring drops as well.
Not really, zerg is more mineral-strained than T or P because expanding is hand-in-hand with production, meaning Z expands as soon as he has the minerals to do so. Would you rather have two preemptive spore crawlers or a hatch and one less drone?
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On September 15 2010 13:35 Uranium wrote: The real reason is because Mutalisks have 3 range and Banshees have 6. This means that Spores have lower effective range against Banshees than Turrets have against Mutalisks.
^ This
Spore crawlers have range 7 and banshees have range 6. In other words, the area that it protects from a banshee is a circle of radius of one. Unless you litter your base with them, you're not actually protected from anything.
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On September 16 2010 07:04 SpiciestZerg wrote: Rather than all the reasons people put forth i think it really has more to do with scouting. Spore crawlers are definitely cost effective...125 minerals vs 150 min 100 gas. But unfortunately its hard to scout, and preemptively putting down spore crawlers would do more harm then good. Once you see them though its definitely worth putting at least one down at each mineral line to protect your drones. (remember they 2 shot drones and fire insanely fast), and if they got cloak rather than making 3-4 overseers it would generally be better to just making 1-2 for your army and adding even more spores to counter the 200/200 investment in cloak. After all, gas is much more important and spores are only minerals.
tldr: spores are great since so much gas is being used by your opp, but early game cant scout banshee tech so dont know if theyre needed or not.
PS banshees cant harass if you have mutas, so spores are unnecessary at that point.
and this is just dumb...
also all static defense is a deterrent; only bronze noobs make enough to stand on its own.
my post is dumb, yet you are NOWHERE even close to the OP topic. The OP's topic was Spore vs Turret. Not Spores vs Banshees ( -_-)
The spore def has its place and in some cases the better decision. But those scenarios are far less then common then the scenarios where Terran's need Turrets.
On September 16 2010 08:20 EriktheGuy wrote:You counted the drone twice. If you built the drone FOR the spore crawler (as you stated) then it doesn't need to be replaced, because none of your harvesting drones were used up. 125 min for spore crawler.
Sure, in that example you don't need to 'replace' the drone. But you are now 1 miner short then what you could be at. So you are still losing that potential miner.
Unless you plan on waiting that extra time for a new drone, your just going to pull a drone off of mining (50 mins already paid for). Now you have to replace it.
Regardless though, arguing that point is the same as arguing that the MULE does or doesn't 'cost' 270 minerals
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Queen> spore crawlers. With the extra queen 150 minerals, you can spread creep much much faster. You can use tranfusion while fight with banshee.
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On September 16 2010 12:52 Nakas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 13:35 Uranium wrote: The real reason is because Mutalisks have 3 range and Banshees have 6. This means that Spores have lower effective range against Banshees than Turrets have against Mutalisks. ^ This Spore crawlers have range 7 and banshees have range 6. In other words, the area that it protects from a banshee is a circle of radius of one. Unless you litter your base with them, you're not actually protected from anything.
Also, the short range on mutalisks means that mutalisks attacking them are pulled into overlapping fields of fire with good turret placement. So the mutas take tons of damage. OTOH, Banshees attacking Spore Crawlers will have an easy time isolating the defense and destroying it quickly if they care to. Taking down 3 turrets/crawlers one at a time is much easier than taking them down all at once.
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Spores are only good in ZvZ. spore into hydra + infestor FG. That basically blind-counters every zerg... especially on scrap station. and pray they get baneling to counter your hydralisk all the funnier to see your one infestor become a METAMORPH after killing a couple dozen B-ling
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Firstly, there can be no direct comparison between spore and turrets, its just silly. Terrans have the mineral advantage where as zerg is very mineral heavy, especially early->mid game where everything you make costs just so much minerals. Terran macro constraints are largely gas restricted (unless you go for mm).
Secondly the key thing to whether or not spores are useful is based more upon the state of the game than actual costs. If you know that there is no possible way the terran can get cloak anytime soon because of his army then queen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spore crawler that you cannot compare (range 9 for queen, all the abilities, ability to deny other harass). That last point i feel is the biggest key as well as transfusion. Sure your spore crawler might ward away 2 banshees but what are the spore crawlers going to do when the terran doesnt make any more banshees and pushes you with a ground army. The spore crawler become useless where as a queen (albeit not that strong) can help defend, spread creep, transfuse.
In the case of detection against banshee, there can be an argument to put down 1 sporecrawler at each base (AND 1 ONLY) if you need more AA use queens. This however does not mean you can skimp on the overseer either. Banshees do not have to only hit your mineral line, they can destroy your army too in engagements.
TL;DR - Dont get spores for AA, 1 spore at each base is enough for detection after that use queens. Turret >>>>>>>> spore because of the macro constraints of the two races.
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I believe everyone here is completely off track in this case. The question posed was why we don't see spores vs banshees more often, and the real answer hasn't been stated at all.
When zergs are up against banshees, terran is usually rushing them. At this point in time, almost no zerg will have an evolution chamber ready to counter this. If we compare the building times for lair (80) overseer (17) and evo (35) spore (30), we see that the latter method is method is quicker to set up. However, as stated in previous posts, this method sets you back economically due the the number of drones required. This also puts you behind in tech and effectively contains your units in your base since you lack mobile detection and any decent AA unit.
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On September 16 2010 00:41 Pfeff wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 15:17 Xapti wrote: Problem is, it's pretty hard to defend with just queens if they save up to 3 banshees, in fact it's impossible since 3 banshees beat 3 queens, and I don't think you can get more than 3 queens in the time it takes to get 3 banshees, assuming one doesn't do something like hatch first build. It's called Transfusion
How long are you staying on hatchery tech? Cause really, you can only afford transfusion if you have more then 1 queen per base and most people get the second queen after lair. If you have the lair already, might as well just get an overseer.
On September 16 2010 03:39 imbecile wrote: And counting the larva as disadvantage in comparison to an overseer is not right either, because the overseer costs a larva too.
No it doesn't because you are using a pre-existing overlord. Sure you have to build the overlord using a larva, but you were going to build that overlord anyways and it was already there. You arn't spending an extra larva to make an overseer. Look at it this way, if I was playing a standard strat and decided to build spores, it would cost me larva in the form of drones. If you were playing your strat and decided to transition to standard, you already have the overlord you are using for supply.....
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On September 15 2010 13:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Turrets are basically free since Terran barely has a strain on minerals with MULEs and stuff; Zerg has to lose a Drone for each shitty piss-spraying thing that's useless beyond fending off 2 Banshees.
and a drone is a larvae you cant use on army too, plus you need the evo chamber which is usually after lair
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Well, I started as terran in BW, kept it up in SC2 but after all these imbalance discussions I decided to switch to zerg and it has been about a month.
What I could notice during this month was that everything you need to do as zerg adds up on APM. Not just APM but also Decisions per Minute. Having an overseer in every one of your bases is a cool thing, yes, and if you can spare a hundred gas for each of them instead of mutalisk at around "that" timeline where terran also gets banshees / medivacs and decides to push out, then you are fine. However, as zerg I feel a lot of pressure on my gas count. I am going to need infestors (each 150 gas) to battle his MMM ball, I am going to need banelings to soften'em before finishing... I also will need gas for upgrades (+1 carapace is 150 gas) so... The first part giving + on spore crawlers is the gas demand at those times ... starting from minute 5 to minute where you have two expansions fully droned and gassed up and running and you gathered enough muta's and / or infestors... well.. I would say this happens around 15 minute mark, if it ever happens (terran lets you)
And the second part is about the decision / action per minute part. When you place two spore crawlers in your bases, you basically cut down a portion of actions to do from that "HUGE" list. You just throw down 4-6 spore crawlers and then you don't have to worry about falling back, leaving some hydralisks back, or even produce hydralisk at all (seriously, what other ground unit do we have that can attack air besides queens that you already have in all your bases, and gas free?)
The truth: you are going to need gas. You are going to need the weight on your shoulder reduced to battle terran. ( untill you become an APM / Decision Per Minute Lord - which an equal level terran does not have to become) So what spore crawlers give you is that.
When comparing with Misile Turrets, though... You are also comparing the races overall. The races supposedly have strengths / weaknesses. As zerg, when you build spore crawlers, you are reducing your weakness (add scan/early anti air/gas free solution) on terran however you are adding up to your strength (You already have scan for detection, and marines can shoot air, and it is cheap as hell and repairable. - Ever seen 7 scv's repairing a single turret and eachother under mutalisk fire?)
So when terrans build up turrets, they make their alread fine job a lot easier and focus on their macro + a move. As zerg however, most people believe the race is so troublesome that spores are not worth investing into: you have to do what terran does and add strength over your strength. (i.e. produce more units... I really can't understand this when we are talking about banshee's... Do they mean to produce hydralisks? Which will get owned off creep? And will waste gas of mutalisks, our best delayers / containers? Maybe, what a zerg should do is to overproduce and try to break into terran before it's too late...)
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Couple of reasons:
Banshee range: 6, Muta range: 3 Banshee: cloak, Muta: extra bounce attack Banshee: insane damage, Muta: fairly average damage Banshee: kills zerg t1 anti air decisively in medium numbers, Muta: always loses to terran t1 anti air Banshee: Shut down by t2 zerg units completely (especially mutas), Muta: viable and useful throughout the game
To expand a little on the above, the reason turrets are a good investment is that mutas are a game-long threat. Banshees are not a threat if zerg gets mutas, hydras, or infestors because each of these units absolutely destroys banshees. So the second you get a lair the 500 or so minerals you spent on spore crawlers (and larvae) becomes a useless investment, and you have to get a lot of spores to cover enough of your base to be effective vs banshees.
Spores are good in ZvZ muta and ZvPhoenix though, for regaining the ability to push out of your base safely.
Ohhh, and one more VERY important point is that spores make it so you can't leave your base. Being able to scout and engage terrans in the open is KEY to beating them, as once they set up outside your front door it's usually already GG.
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On September 16 2010 18:06 dogabutila wrote: No it doesn't because you are using a pre-existing overlord. Sure you have to build the overlord using a larva, but you were going to build that overlord anyways and it was already there. You arn't spending an extra larva to make an overseer. Look at it this way, if I was playing a standard strat and decided to build spores, it would cost me larva in the form of drones. If you were playing your strat and decided to transition to standard, you already have the overlord you are using for supply.....
And that drone is not pre-existing? Sure, an overlord is something different from a drone. But 50min and 150 gas is also something different from 125mins. And a spore crawler will very likely stay with you for the rest of the game, whereas an overseer is more or less expensive cannon fodder and a priority target with no defense that needs to be remade all the time.
And don't forget, if you have only overseers, he can prevent you from scouting and having detection at you army by harassing with cloaked banshees. Actually a very good and common technique, to go to banshee for harass, and then decide what you are gonna get next. If your overseer is at your base, you won't know what your opponent is doing.
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Two reasons:
1. Muta range is much shorter than banshee range. Banshees are able to only ever engage 1 spore at a time and it is impossible to cover your base from all angles against a banshee, with spores. Turrets, on the other hand, are very good versus mutas because mutas have short range, so wherever you put them, they will be able to team up against the mutas.
2. MULES. Terrans are pretty much rolling in minerals the whole game. What better thing to spend it on than turrets when they are so effective against mutas?
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I'm sure it's been covered pretty well in this thread... but as a Terran you'll usually have a good amount of Marines to ward flying units off, the Turrets are there to buy time.
As a zerg what do you have at Tier 1 when a Banshee attack hits? 2 or 3 queens, with more on the way? No creep linking your nat and main yet?
Yeah, i'd much rather have Lair up thanks.
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You make 5000 spores and T still finds a little spot that isn't covered and does damage to you anyways. That's prob why.
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On September 15 2010 14:06 Melancholia wrote: It's the same reason you never see Banshees as a main army unit and you do see Mutas in that role. Banshees are effective in small numbers and early in the game, and are not something you continue to produce. Mutas are terrible in small numbers and are massed well into the game, so the threat of Mutas hitting all around your base is present for much longer. Turrets aren't a waste because they continue to be useful. Spore crawlers cost a drone and resources for basically a single point in the game, a point in the game at which Zerg cannot afford to lose money.
What are you talking about? Banshees are used as main army units all the time. Or at least in fairly large groups against any race. Ground AA is not that effective against them except maybe for the Thor. It usually takes more cash to spend on ground AA than it takes for the Terran player to beat the ground AA with just his Banshees.
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On September 17 2010 05:49 AzureD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 14:06 Melancholia wrote: It's the same reason you never see Banshees as a main army unit and you do see Mutas in that role. Banshees are effective in small numbers and early in the game, and are not something you continue to produce. Mutas are terrible in small numbers and are massed well into the game, so the threat of Mutas hitting all around your base is present for much longer. Turrets aren't a waste because they continue to be useful. Spore crawlers cost a drone and resources for basically a single point in the game, a point in the game at which Zerg cannot afford to lose money. What are you talking about? Banshees are used as main army units all the time. Or at least in fairly large groups against any race. Ground AA is not that effective against them except maybe for the Thor. It usually takes more cash to spend on ground AA than it takes for the Terran player to beat the ground AA with just his Banshees.
Absolutely true
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2 queens per hatchery (most liklely you'll have a 2nd base so 4 queens) and 1 spore crawler at each for defense.
also handy for upgrade starting as you'll have 1 evo chamber early on
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