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And what if, what if, what if.
What if the banshee snipes the burrowing spore and then goes back to repair and comes back?
That's just the whole point. Overseer's have those uses, and that is a good thing.
I have the possibility of doing that, i don't have to fly my overseer there, but I can do that.
Gl doing anything else with your spore crawlers other then sitting in your base after the banshees are gone.
I have the option of actually moving out, you cannot move out at all.
And you know what happens after I get an overseer? The banshees die since I actually have something (since I am at lair tech already) units and the capability to hunt down the banshees.
You can do nothing more then me, you can actually do much less, and if it is cost-effective or not, i'm tired of discussing this, but look at all the other replies that have been made.
Especially since you change your arguments every 2 posts, one moment they are like turrets meant to take them out, and 2 posts after you have changed it to only being detection.
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On September 15 2010 14:35 Icx wrote:
And what if, what if, what if.
...
Especially since you change your arguments every 2 posts, one moment they are like turrets meant to take them out, and 2 posts after you have changed it to only being detection.
You didn't seem to notice that I was parroting your line of hypothetical scenarios, that you considered arguments.
And sorry if more than two uses for spores are too much for you to keep in your head 
I'm gonna tell you what happens when a cloaked banshee arrives and I have a crawler and a queen in my base, since you like such scenarios.
It will retreat and not be able to do anything. He will have wasted a few hundred minerals and gas to get it, and sacrificed economy to get it fast. And if he wants to harass at all, he will have to invest a lot more.
I have spent 125 minerals and lost 17s of mining time of a drone, so that's about 150 minerals overall.
And I didn't need to spend any gas, probably still only have 1 extractor (maybe none if I feel cheeky) and be way ahead in workers and he will have a big upgraded zergling/roach army at his front with not much army and upgrades himself.
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How are those hypothetical scenario's?
A overseer can move to the other's base to scout if needed, how is that hypothetical?
Oh btw, if you aren't getting that gas, then what do you do with the evo chamber? That's an optimized build right there then if you just make the evo chamber.
Or what do you actually do then? When you see a starport already start the evo chamber then?
While your at it, try to find 3+ pro replays where they use spore crawlers to hold off banshee's, gl.
Anyway, i'm tired of this, you still think that it is a good idea, go ahead and go rely on spore crawlers against banshee's. No point in arguing anymore since your just constantly changing facts anyway, it went from 1-2 spore crawlers per base to 1-2 spore crawlers in total to only getting 1 spore crawler ever.
And I like to actually get a lair on a reasonable time and get access to bling speed/roach speed/muta's/hydra's/overseers/drop/nydus (yes drop for LT) instead of having some build that stays away from lair-tech for a longer time and rely's on spore crawlers and just ineffiecency for just no gain (well I see no gain at all)
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One Spore per hatchery + one or more queens per hatchery (generally get 3 queens per 2 base early on ZvT) works excellent. You don't have to worry about rushing the lair and overseer (which will hurt economy), or following the
banshees that are faster than overseer.
The thing about spore crawlers is while they are limited to 7 attacking range, queens have 9 attack range, and the crawler's detection range is 11. This means as long as you have good unit control you can hit banshees without them hitting the queen (much at least) in an 11 unit radius from the spore's location.
250 minerals is not a big investment to protect from 150/150 cloak upgrade as well as the cost of 2+ banshees.
I think the reasoning behind people not getting the spores is
1. they probably don't want to start upgrading that early
2. they might not know for sure if banshees are comming, and don't want to invest in useless units. with a lair up it only takes several seconds to get the detector if you need it (that way it's only spent if necessary)
Problem is, it's pretty hard to defend with just queens if they save up to 3 banshees, in fact it's impossible since 3 banshees beat 3 queens, and I don't think you can get more than 3 queens in the time it takes to get 3 banshees, assuming one doesn't do something like hatch first build.
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If you know banshees are coming and you don't have anti air up yet, I think it's a descent option to throw up a spore or 2, especially if you already have the evo chamber. If you don't have enough to defend then it's gg right there (or a major dent in your economy). So if it's necessary, I will get spores, but I usually don't have to.
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It's called experimenting.
I just find it so strange that Zerg is so heavily dependent on getting a lot of gas and teching fast, because they have quite a few units and buildings that don't need much or any gas at all. Having to get so much gas and tech so fast just eats into their ability to push economy, which is supposed to be one of their strengths.
Spine/Spore Crawlers are a way to enable go that economical path. Could be worth exploring. Because the current consensus doesn't seem to work that well either.
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Spore Crawlers cost 75+50 = 125 Minerals. Turrets cost 100 Minerals.
Spore Crawlers deal 15 damage a shot. Turrets deal 12+12 = 24 damage a shot.
Both shoot at the same rate, and both have 7 Range (although Turret range can be upgraded).
That answer your question? Turrets are much, much more cost-efficient than Spore Crawlers. Plus, Zerg naturally has a Queen at every base as AA.
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has anyone thought about just getting a single unburrowed sporecrwaler for detection? its 125 minerals for a detection that can run around and detect everything on creep
with queens for dps you should be save with a single unburrwed sporecrawler per base
havent seen anyone doing this- is there anything bad about this?
its 125 minerals for detection everywere on creep - without lair
doesnt seem to be bad to me
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@Tiwalun
Only detect when burrowed.
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On September 15 2010 12:57 imbecile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 12:28 Pfeff wrote:
I don't use them unless I scout air late...rather have 4 drones that 4 static defenses that may never be used
Not to mention as for stealth detection we do have overseers (which are quite quick with the speed upgrade and it's at a Lair, meaning it doesn't have to wait in line for other important upgrade), which banshees can't even attack
Reactions > Static Defenses that may never be used. I'd rather get an overseer in my base with a couple extra Queens
-Diamond Zerg- You actually never addressed the question. All the arguments you have against spores also apply against turrets. And then there are a few reasons that speak for spores that don't apply to turrets. You don't need many. 1-2 per hatch maximum. You don't need them primarily for the damage, but for the detection, since you have queens. It's definitely cheaper than overseers, which you want to have scouting the enemy base anyway. And you can reposition them, unlike turrets. Edit: And I just wanna add, that spore crawlers, unlike overseers, can't be quickly and easily killed or driven away from 9 range by Vikings. If they wanna get rid of that detection, terrans need to pay a price for it.
Yes, I did. If spore crawlers did not take away a drone I would build them more often. Otherwise I am wasting minerals on static defenses and a drone that may never be used, like I said in my post
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On September 15 2010 15:17 Xapti wrote:
Problem is, it's pretty hard to defend with just queens if they save up to 3 banshees, in fact it's impossible since 3 banshees beat 3 queens, and I don't think you can get more than 3 queens in the time it takes to get 3 banshees, assuming one doesn't do something like hatch first build.
It's called Transfusion
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Spore crawlers should be range 8, or just cost less 25/50 minerals plus drone cost maybe both.
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Wow, flame war leading to nothing.
Well, on topic: I thing spores can be pretty helpful for early defenses working with queens. That against Terran. Against Protoss I think they are even better. Phoenix harass can be really damaging when defending only with queens because phoenixes can lift them up. So spores protect the overlords against the phoenixes and, more importantly, keeps observers away.
One question though: do spores still detect while uprooted? I don't think so, but didn't try it yet.
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On September 15 2010 13:35 Zelniq wrote:
pretty simple, a single turret protects mineral line from several mutas while you need like 3 or 4 spores to protect each base from even 1 banshee, due to attack range
Zelniq got it right, all this theorycrafting is quite useless. The only matchup I get spores to delay air harass is against zerg, because mutas still have the short range.
Both terran (banshee) and protoss (void ray) have new strong air to ground units with a good range, so unless you stack your spores, they can attack one at a time.
a) they can take out one spore and shut down that part of the mineral line
b) they can harass whatever isn't covered by the spores
So it's no wonder why we just want to get fast mobile anti-air.
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On September 15 2010 13:35 Zelniq wrote:
pretty simple, a single turret protects mineral line from several mutas while you need like 3 or 4 spores to protect each base from even 1 banshee, due to attack range
Simple answer is Attack Range.
Look at what your using those buildings to counter/prevent.
Any anti-air turrets are gonna be sufficient against mutas due to muta's short range.
Banshees only have 1 shorter range than spores I believe thus it's easier for Banshees to just find uncoverable buildings to attack.
If your using it for detection, why bother sac'ing a drone + having to uproot and re-root to chase the banshees around, while you can just morph an overseer (save a drone) and right click a banshee for it to follow. Then concentrate on micro'ing to kill it.
Spores are fine. I regularly invest in 1 spore per base vs' protoss to fight off phoenixes from stargate openers. I also invest in multiples for ZvZ to feel safe against the counter-attack from mutas.
Once again, that's because of what the static is meant to counter.
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A lot of people who believe defense is better against an air rush aren't taking into consideration the time value in their cost/benefit analysis. It pays off significantly in the long run to get the mobile units until the cost of the static defense becomes negligible. Example: building tons of missile turrets to defend against a mutalisk harass when you don't have enough minerals to support normal production is silly. The cost/benefit ratio becomes much better once you've fielded an army, have extra minerals, and are about to push out. That's when you place the static defense to free up your army. The same principle applies to zerg. Early game zerg is always ridiculously mineral heavy, but late game zerg is significantly gas heavy. As such, I would argue it's much better to use gas in the early game to replace mineral requiring functions if possible, and vice versa in the late game. The cost of a drone and spore crawler before a mid-late game push is drastically less than and early game defense.
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On September 15 2010 14:54 imbecile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 14:35 Icx wrote:
And what if, what if, what if.
...
Especially since you change your arguments every 2 posts, one moment they are like turrets meant to take them out, and 2 posts after you have changed it to only being detection.
You didn't seem to notice that I was parroting your line of hypothetical scenarios, that you considered arguments. And sorry if more than two uses for spores are too much for you to keep in your head I'm gonna tell you what happens when a cloaked banshee arrives and I have a crawler and a queen in my base, since you like such scenarios. It will retreat and not be able to do anything. He will have wasted a few hundred minerals and gas to get it, and sacrificed economy to get it fast. And if he wants to harass at all, he will have to invest a lot more. I have spent 125 minerals and lost 17s of mining time of a drone, so that's about 150 minerals overall. And I didn't need to spend any gas, probably still only have 1 extractor (maybe none if I feel cheeky) and be way ahead in workers and he will have a big upgraded zergling/roach army at his front with not much army and upgrades himself.
Wow. How did I miss this gem of a post. Everything you said here is wrong.
If a cloak banshee flies in and only sees 1 spre + 1 queen, it'll just fly around trying to find angles not covered by the spore. He doesn't even have to do any damage. The fact that he's forcing you to stay inside your base next to the crawler is enough (and the drone->spore too). You are NOT gonna be moving out with that 'big roach/zergling army' until you have those overseers on the field. If your gonna get overseers anyways, why bother with spores? I also don't see how your gonna be 'way ahead' in workers if you have a 'big upgraded' zergling/roach army (which will get detroyed by the time it reaches the opponent's base). How are you gonna be ahead if your sac'ing drones to make spores?
Also, where on earth did you get he 17s of lost mining time? You do realise drones don't come back after morphing into a spore right?
Wow, do you even play Z? Do you even have the game? Or are you just theorycrafting w/o the game?
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Lair tech does a lot more for you than just provide AA and stealth detection, so rushing for Lair tech is really a pretty good idea.
That aside, Spore Crawlers are pretty decent, but I wouldn't build them as my sole detection and protection against banshees, etc. Instead, if I know the opponent is going heavy on air, I like to throw up a few spore crawlers at my bases right before I push out. These might not actually come into play at anytime, but they offer me the peace of mind against air counter attacks. It's amazing to me how often players with a large air army will retreat when they see only a few spore crawlers, even though often their force could probably kill the static D and then wreck havoc. I see this with mutas vs turrets all the time too.
Anyway, if you are worried about banshees as zerg, rush to lair tech. This is much better than spore crawlers because you get both mobile detection and mobile AA. On top of that, you now have everything else that Lair tech offers, such as speed upgrades for roaches and banelings, burrow, infestors, nydus, spire, and of course, access to Hive for its units too. 
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You can't be offensive at all without the lair if your opponent has banshees. the only T1 AA zerg have are queens and those are useless on offense. You're basically handing your opponenty a free ticket to double expo.
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Spores are only useful against banshees, they also cost tons and need to be supplemented with queens to be any use. Turrets are cheaper, and he is more likely to commit to mutas after a 250/200 spire +5-6 mutas. Lair tech not only allows you to scout banshees, but also defend the cloak. 150/100 is a lot cheaper than evo+2-4 spores and overseer scouts just how much he is committing to the banshees.
Spores should only be used against a heavy banshee force, usually T's get a few to get a few drone kills/queen snipes when the zerg is unprepared.
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EPT
