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On September 01 2010 17:20 Piy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 17:15 superbabosheki wrote:On September 01 2010 17:02 whiteguycash wrote:
I'll watch the replays, but I think a 12gate cyber with another gate constantly pumping should be enough to stop the initial poke, and depending on the timing of the initial push, for a defending protoss, a FE might be feasable with constant zealot/stalker production to defend. It just comes down to being able to keep the raven from getting off PDD. If the protoss player could hold off your push, he would be way ahead in terms of economy. although, your banshees might prove trouble with cloak. You do realize the poke is a POKE not a way to win the game. If the protoss holds it off it doesn't matter, the whole purpose is really just a "technical" scouting force with the possibility to do some good damage. If its defended by only gateway units terran will know that toss went 2 gate before robo or stargate. if its defended by a fast immortal terran will know toss went 1 gate robo, etc. You can't FE vs this with only zealots on stalkers. A PDD on your natural will be an automatic gg, while marine/hellions kite your zels. Unit count will be too low to defend first raven push. That'd not his point. If you push towards protoss and force them to either back off or use a pdd the major threat of this build is nullified. Not saying it's a bad build or anything, but that's something to bear in mind with your execution.
The only weakness to this first push is that you want to engage protoss at his base to make the pdd really strong, an open field will just allow toss to retreat.
I was already aware of that if you read the OP. His post was about FEing before mentioning pdd. I just told him that FEing will probably give terran an autowin(on two player or close positions of course).
A lot of people seem to be missing the point that T has a buttload of units. PDD doesn't make or break this build, even using it in an open field means that you are getting quite a few hits on his retreating army(banshees have insane range and attack speed/power).
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Seems like a solid build, could you put up a few more replays when you get a chance?
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On September 01 2010 17:38 Kinmaul wrote:
Seems like a solid build, could you put up a few more replays when you get a chance?
Added two more with varying protoss styles, I think the xel naga cavern games is pretty hilarious =]
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I've been trying to wane myself off tanks tvp to deal with patch 1.1, maybe this build will be what I need! Thanks.
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how about a quick vr? I just played a game where a toss got one out at ~5 mins in, seems like at this time on your replies you only have 1 marine so unless u burn a scan'/he lets you keep an scv in his base?
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nah, thats why i never build stalkers or phoenices, fu pdd.
yeah, sentries are weak, but an army consisting of heavy zealots-sentry, could just kill of your rines with guardian shield and forcefield and mass sentry can kill 2 banshees. perhaps i´m mistaken, but those 1,1 k points of you scare me a bit off, though i´m not quite much behind, but that would mean, that you beat me like 80%^^, which also scares me.
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On September 01 2010 18:15 Sub40APM wrote:
how about a quick vr? I just played a game where a toss got one out at ~5 mins in, seems like at this time on your replies you only have 1 marine so unless u burn a scan'/he lets you keep an scv in his base?
I've been doing a build very similar to this and it pretty much hard counters vrs. First of all, the initial attack will cripple him. He won't have enough stuff to deal with the push, and if you keep hellions rallied to his base you can kill a bunch of probes. The startport which you put up after pushing pumps out a viking, as it should become pretty obvious that he is going VR once you're in his base. 1 viking + 2 marines wins vs a vr pretty easily, the viking prevents him from charging on anything w/ micro. (~1.3k terran here)
I would like to make a couple notes about the opener, though. I feel like 1 marine + 3 marauders + 1 hellions is too slow. The 3rd marauder and hellion will finish at about the same time, which does not take advantage of the hellion's speed. If you do 2 rine 2 marauder + 1 hellion, you can push out w/ your bio, and the hellion will get to the front in time for the ramp push.
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Seems like banshee play is the new tvp. Between this and that other hellion drop build.
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On September 01 2010 18:31 Red Alert wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 18:15 Sub40APM wrote:
how about a quick vr? I just played a game where a toss got one out at ~5 mins in, seems like at this time on your replies you only have 1 marine so unless u burn a scan'/he lets you keep an scv in his base? I've been doing a build very similar to this and it pretty much hard counters vrs. First of all, the initial attack will cripple him. He won't have enough stuff to deal with the push, and if you keep hellions rallied to his base you can kill a bunch of probes. The startport which you put up after pushing pumps out a viking, as it should become pretty obvious that he is going VR once you're in his base. 1 viking + 2 marines wins vs a vr pretty easily, the viking prevents him from charging on anything w/ micro. (~1.3k terran here) I would like to make a couple notes about the opener, though. I feel like 1 marine + 3 marauders + 1 hellions is too slow. The 3rd marauder and hellion will finish at about the same time, which does not take advantage of the hellion's speed. If you do 2 rine 2 marauder + 1 hellion, you can push out w/ your bio, and the hellion will get to the front in time for the ramp push.
Good points, yeah it does hard counter voids pretty hard.
The 3rd marauder pops out when the hellion is 50% done if timed correctly(I do marine, tech lab/marauder, factory, maruader, concussive, marauder, hellion, with a second gas somewhere in there).
As long as you don't get sup capped at 27/27 the timing actually works pretty well depending on the rush distance.
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How does this compare to the iEchoic's hellion drop? Any thoughts from people who tried both builds perhaps? Cheers
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Mods please change the title to 3/1/2 since this look like a 3 rax 2 factory 1 starport build.
Looks cool, will try at home.
I've meant to include ravens in my 1/1/2 but this looks like a very refined timing. Can't wait to crush my Protoss training buddies ^_^
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Any Terrans want to practice this build?
I'm 600-700ish diamond toss. Jon.1889 or pm here.
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On September 01 2010 20:38 ChickenLips wrote:
Mods please change the title to 3/1/2 since this look like a 3 rax 2 factory 1 starport build.
edit: nvm, I'm just going to give you the benefit of the doubt.
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This build is quite similar to iEchoic's 1/1/2 build with 2 more rax + fast exp after second starport goes down.
instead of poking at the protoss, you could drop 3 hellions into the protoss main and fry all his probes in one go... then mass marines from 3-4 rax.. + bainshees and a raven..
even for next patch this build will be EVEN better... why? Because zealots gets a warp-in and build time nerf 
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On September 01 2010 20:57 MasterFischer wrote:This build is quite similar to iEchoic's 1/1/2 build with 2 more rax + fast exp after second starport goes down. instead of poking at the protoss, you could drop 3 hellions into the protoss main and fry all his probes in one go... then mass marines from 3-4 rax.. + bainshees and a raven.. even for next patch this build will be EVEN better... why? Because zealots gets a warp-in and build time nerf
I think (without having tried it though) this build is better than iEchoic's. His build pumps marines from 1 rax (which for me is then around 10 marines) and pushes with 4 banshees while this build relies on a much more ground heavy force with the banshees providing nice added DPS. What often happens with the 1/1/2 (and even more so if you delay it with the hellion drop) is that a Toss with good macro (talking 1000+ diamond) will have enough stuff to just rip apart your marines and then focus on your banshees. Microing marines against zealots works for about 2 shots, then you have to either split them up (while you are doing only damage from your banshees that are getting killed) or run away...
Getting all my production facilities up and then macroing seems better since from the 1/1/2 pumping units while building workers / depots / a CC / 2 more rax i just dont get enough units to really put a dent in my toss opponent. Also Day9 said in his last daily that you can stop unit production to get more unit-producing facilites.
I'm glad the OP posted this thread since I don't have to find my own raven timings etc. now 
Also @ superbabosheki:
I think you can really make your OP more appealing to the eye by maybe posting a picture of what your first and / or second push is composed off (every1 loves pics), posting your replays by using the star2.org replay graphic and by first off telling us your rating (and not somewhere in the wall of text) since, while I hate people flashing their rating like an e-peen (and i really dont care about mine), it gives me a good idea of how well you play the game. Great OP keep up the good work!
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On September 01 2010 19:50 superbabosheki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 18:31 Red Alert wrote:On September 01 2010 18:15 Sub40APM wrote:
how about a quick vr? I just played a game where a toss got one out at ~5 mins in, seems like at this time on your replies you only have 1 marine so unless u burn a scan'/he lets you keep an scv in his base? I've been doing a build very similar to this and it pretty much hard counters vrs. First of all, the initial attack will cripple him. He won't have enough stuff to deal with the push, and if you keep hellions rallied to his base you can kill a bunch of probes. The startport which you put up after pushing pumps out a viking, as it should become pretty obvious that he is going VR once you're in his base. 1 viking + 2 marines wins vs a vr pretty easily, the viking prevents him from charging on anything w/ micro. (~1.3k terran here) I would like to make a couple notes about the opener, though. I feel like 1 marine + 3 marauders + 1 hellions is too slow. The 3rd marauder and hellion will finish at about the same time, which does not take advantage of the hellion's speed. If you do 2 rine 2 marauder + 1 hellion, you can push out w/ your bio, and the hellion will get to the front in time for the ramp push. Good points, yeah it does hard counter voids pretty hard. The 3rd marauder pops out when the hellion is 50% done if timed correctly(I do marine, tech lab/marauder, factory, maruader, concussive, marauder, hellion, with a second gas somewhere in there). As long as you don't get sup capped at 27/27 the timing actually works pretty well depending on the rush distance.
It really depends how specific with the build you get, I guess. I like to go fact before tech lab to do the push that much earlier (albeit weaker w/ the marine instead of the marauder).
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On September 01 2010 21:20 Red Alert wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 19:50 superbabosheki wrote:On September 01 2010 18:31 Red Alert wrote:On September 01 2010 18:15 Sub40APM wrote:
how about a quick vr? I just played a game where a toss got one out at ~5 mins in, seems like at this time on your replies you only have 1 marine so unless u burn a scan'/he lets you keep an scv in his base? I've been doing a build very similar to this and it pretty much hard counters vrs. First of all, the initial attack will cripple him. He won't have enough stuff to deal with the push, and if you keep hellions rallied to his base you can kill a bunch of probes. The startport which you put up after pushing pumps out a viking, as it should become pretty obvious that he is going VR once you're in his base. 1 viking + 2 marines wins vs a vr pretty easily, the viking prevents him from charging on anything w/ micro. (~1.3k terran here) I would like to make a couple notes about the opener, though. I feel like 1 marine + 3 marauders + 1 hellions is too slow. The 3rd marauder and hellion will finish at about the same time, which does not take advantage of the hellion's speed. If you do 2 rine 2 marauder + 1 hellion, you can push out w/ your bio, and the hellion will get to the front in time for the ramp push. Good points, yeah it does hard counter voids pretty hard. The 3rd marauder pops out when the hellion is 50% done if timed correctly(I do marine, tech lab/marauder, factory, maruader, concussive, marauder, hellion, with a second gas somewhere in there). As long as you don't get sup capped at 27/27 the timing actually works pretty well depending on the rush distance. It really depends how specific with the build you get, I guess. I like to go fact before tech lab to do the push that much earlier (albeit weaker w/ the marine instead of the marauder).
I think its more logical to get the slower units out first so they have more time to get to the opponents base, even if it delays the fast units by a bit. (pure theorycraft though)
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On September 01 2010 21:26 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 21:20 Red Alert wrote:On September 01 2010 19:50 superbabosheki wrote:On September 01 2010 18:31 Red Alert wrote:On September 01 2010 18:15 Sub40APM wrote:
how about a quick vr? I just played a game where a toss got one out at ~5 mins in, seems like at this time on your replies you only have 1 marine so unless u burn a scan'/he lets you keep an scv in his base? I've been doing a build very similar to this and it pretty much hard counters vrs. First of all, the initial attack will cripple him. He won't have enough stuff to deal with the push, and if you keep hellions rallied to his base you can kill a bunch of probes. The startport which you put up after pushing pumps out a viking, as it should become pretty obvious that he is going VR once you're in his base. 1 viking + 2 marines wins vs a vr pretty easily, the viking prevents him from charging on anything w/ micro. (~1.3k terran here) I would like to make a couple notes about the opener, though. I feel like 1 marine + 3 marauders + 1 hellions is too slow. The 3rd marauder and hellion will finish at about the same time, which does not take advantage of the hellion's speed. If you do 2 rine 2 marauder + 1 hellion, you can push out w/ your bio, and the hellion will get to the front in time for the ramp push. Good points, yeah it does hard counter voids pretty hard. The 3rd marauder pops out when the hellion is 50% done if timed correctly(I do marine, tech lab/marauder, factory, maruader, concussive, marauder, hellion, with a second gas somewhere in there). As long as you don't get sup capped at 27/27 the timing actually works pretty well depending on the rush distance. It really depends how specific with the build you get, I guess. I like to go fact before tech lab to do the push that much earlier (albeit weaker w/ the marine instead of the marauder). I think its more logical to get the slower units out first so they have more time to get to the opponents base, even if it delays the fast units by a bit. (pure theorycraft though)
it's not quite that simple, the question is - by how much? By your logic it would be better to throw down a second rax before the factory to get more slow units before the fast one.
btw, my version does not have less units, it just has a marine instead of a marauder. While it is a bit weaker, marine dps vs light units helps make up for that.
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This sounds similar to the iEchoic's 1-1-2 build except this one seems way more allin. Doesn't even seem stronger. No harass opportunities either.
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On September 01 2010 21:48 gillon wrote:
This sounds similar to the iEchoic's 1-1-2 build except this one seems way more allin. Doesn't even seem stronger. No harass opportunities either.
the first attack IS the harass, dude. It's not all in at all.
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EPT
