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On September 01 2010 09:19 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 09:04 Balor wrote:[B
This really isn't true. Such ideas are so bad to get in your head. Please show 1 replay of a zerg winning vs a 200/200 T army. It could happen in BW, I have NEVER seen it happen in SC2 vs any competant T player. I think Dimaga straight up killed some huge T armies at IEM, not sure. I meant that the game isn't over if he hits 200/200, given how fast you can remake an army. Regardless, you should never be thinking "oh woe is me all hope is lost". You'll never get better if all you can think about is how imba Terran is. And EVERYONE can still get better at SC2.
Still, that's out in the open. Trying to break a ramp? Zerg is fun to play, I switched from Protoss to Zerg. However, what I've found is that getting the kill is just insane with repair, siege, and turrets, and so you have to keep doing awesome micro out in the middle and deny expansions for a long drawn out win. If you mess up, he gets an easy win. Imbalanced? Maybe. Who knows. However, Is it easier for the Tarran? It seems to me that at least the second question can only be answered with a simple "Yes". It's like Protoss from BW. It's frustrating, but I feel like I'm improving more than any Tarran who's just 1 basing.
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On September 01 2010 09:31 rackdude wrote:
Vikings KILLLLLL mutalisks.
Rofl what. It's embarassing how easily mutalisks kill vikings. In low numbers it's a slightly fair contest but with 10+ the bouncing glaves make it a bit sad.
And the problem is the end game.
No, it's the early game. Ask any pro.
Some one earlier said all you have to do is fend off the 2-3 mech pushes until he mines out and it's gg, but you have to remember that's just a horrible player. I mean, he should have at least took an expansion. And that's the problem. Yes, against a player who just builds, push, builds, push, I'm also able to barely keep it off. But when they actually are a good player and expanding with it, it becomes almost unbearable. Muta/ling/bling is about all you can do but you can never really do a death blow because of turrets and siege. You just keep fighting and hope he gets out of position to kill some SCVs, starve him from getting a 3rd or 4th, and finally gg.
Broodlords and/or Ultras = deathblow. If you can take out his main force it's trivial to go blow up his main. Thankfully most Terrans are surprisingly reasonable and just gg when their army dies.
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In US top 1v1 top 20 there is 1 zerg.
In Korean 1v1 top 20 there are significantly more but only 1 in top 5 at rank 4.
People say it's a l2p issue with US players but hey, I'm a US player and I'm not at the top of the 1v1 ladder, so I'd say for the vast majority of players T is imba strong and Z imba weak.
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On September 01 2010 09:34 xCyan1de wrote:
Also, idra made a mistake of trying to attack him in chokes. Terran thrives in chokes and getting tanks in good position whereas zerg needs surrounds. The only way youre going to beat a good T is with good surround/harass. The one battle or 2 idra won in that game was because he surrounded his opponent.
What if you have every base and 200/200? Any other race goes "Oh, I have everything. Lets just go over there and kill them". Zerg just have to keep running stuff in there and go "well, it's a choke, but hopefully I'm choking his neck so much that he's whining like my lings that are on fire." In the mean time, Zergs hear off in the distance "woooh, roasted lings! Sounds like dinner!" as he uses one hand to hold off the attack at his choke.
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On September 01 2010 09:38 Yaotzin wrote:Rofl what. It's embarassing how easily mutalisks kill vikings. In low numbers it's a slightly fair contest but with 10+ the bouncing glaves make it a bit sad. No, it's the early game. Ask any pro. Show nested quote +
Some one earlier said all you have to do is fend off the 2-3 mech pushes until he mines out and it's gg, but you have to remember that's just a horrible player. I mean, he should have at least took an expansion. And that's the problem. Yes, against a player who just builds, push, builds, push, I'm also able to barely keep it off. But when they actually are a good player and expanding with it, it becomes almost unbearable. Muta/ling/bling is about all you can do but you can never really do a death blow because of turrets and siege. You just keep fighting and hope he gets out of position to kill some SCVs, starve him from getting a 3rd or 4th, and finally gg.
Broodlords and/or Ultras = deathblow. If you can take out his main force it's trivial to go blow up his main. Thankfully most Terrans are surprisingly reasonable and just gg when their army dies.
It's early and midgame. Anything before Broodlords and Ultras. Yes, ultras and broodlords are a death blow, that's what I say in the part of the post you decided to cleverly not quote. However, getting there is the problem.
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On September 01 2010 09:39 MicroJFox wrote:
In US top 1v1 top 20 there is 1 zerg.
In Korean 1v1 top 20 there are significantly more but only 1 in top 5 at rank 4.
People say it's a l2p issue with US players but hey, I'm a US player and I'm not at the top of the 1v1 ladder, so I'd say for the vast majority of players T is imba strong and Z imba weak.
I agree. Alot of people are complaining about imba but I know of diamond zergs whos ZvT is their strongest matchup. Its all about the surrounds. People have to realize that as zerg you cant just push into him with A move.
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I'd just say zerg is the race you should invest in if you want to put lots of time and practice into this game, as the game mechanics are more frantic for macro. It has a large barrier to entry and yet interestingly, doesn't seem to be rewarding for those willing to put in time either...
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On September 01 2010 09:37 rackdude wrote:
Still, that's out in the open. Trying to break a ramp?
Ramp  Why bother? Just starve him if he's turtling. Nobody starves like Zerg.
Zerg is fun to play, I switched from Protoss to Zerg. However, what I've found is that getting the kill is just insane with repair, siege, and turrets, and so you have to keep doing awesome micro out in the middle and deny expansions for a long drawn out win. If you mess up, he gets an easy win.
Aye it's fun. I switched to random from toss, mostly to play Zerg more. I find if I can get a handle on his main ball (preferably with a gorgeous fungal+baneling explosion :D) a tech to broodlords is pretty much gg. The only way to stop them is vikings but if he has no map control he can't really.
Imbalanced? Maybe. Who knows. However, Is it easier for the Tarran? It seems to me that at least the second question can only be answered with a simple "Yes". It's like Protoss from BW. It's frustrating, but I feel like I'm improving more than any Tarran who's just 1 basing.
Well yeah, Terran is by far the easiest to play. That's why people with self-respect don't play them ^_^
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On September 01 2010 09:43 xCyan1de wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 09:39 MicroJFox wrote:
In US top 1v1 top 20 there is 1 zerg.
In Korean 1v1 top 20 there are significantly more but only 1 in top 5 at rank 4.
People say it's a l2p issue with US players but hey, I'm a US player and I'm not at the top of the 1v1 ladder, so I'd say for the vast majority of players T is imba strong and Z imba weak. I agree. Alot of people are complaining about imba but I know of diamond zergs whos ZvT is their strongest matchup. Its all about the surrounds. People have to realize that as zerg you cant just push into him with A move.
I doubt that IdrA/Sheth etc don't know that surrounding is critical for Zerg success.
Perhaps we can say it better that racial imbalances don't factor in decisively until you reach Pro levels, if then.
Most people parrot what their respective races most skilled players say, not realizing or ignoring the fact that at their own levels, losses come from terrible play rather than said imbalance.
In most games that I win, I can point out over 100 mistakes I made throughout the game... I don't even want to consider games that last longer that I lose in. Diamond level or not, I'm losing because of fail, not because of racial imba, even if I was playing Zerg at the time.
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On September 01 2010 09:42 rackdude wrote:
It's early and midgame. Anything before Broodlords and Ultras. Yes, ultras and broodlords are a death blow, that's what I say in the part of the post you decided to cleverly not quote. However, getting there is the problem.
Virtually all Zerg problems stem from the early game. If he doesn't harrass you (pity Terran needs to be shockingly bad for their harass not to be very effective), Zerg midgame > Terran midgame. It's just that you usually arrive there in a dodgy position because of the early game issues. Midgame blings/infestors/slings/mutas are very, very strong.
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On September 01 2010 09:34 xCyan1de wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 09:11 ioRa wrote:On September 01 2010 09:08 claricorp wrote:
generally the best answer to beating a turtling terran is getting broodlords. broodlords outrange pretty much all that terran ground can bring to bear, and with some focus fire on thors and using mutalisks and corrupters to mop up vikings your pretty much set. another great way to win is to simply get 200 banelings and right click far past there army, generally you will kill everything they have, the trick is of course getting 200 banelings. another good one to do is to use nydus worms and pump zerglings intot here base to kill as much as you can, making them starve is very important.
if they turtle you can take the map and generally win, the enemy army itself will roll over pretty much everything in a face to face fight except for ultralisk/hydra with possible infestor or broodlord mutalisk/corrupter with roaches and lings.
zvt is a very fun matchup, more often then not you will see terran playing aggressive bio builds than turtling mech. Broodlords < vikings 200 thousand banelings < some tanks Zergligns into base < wall You < a helpful post Anyways, I think that as zerg you arnt supposed to be able to easily beat a 200/200 T army with yours. Then zerg would be Op cause they can literally rebuild instantly. Youre supposed to weaken his army, rebuild and keep attacking until he has nothing left. Also, idra made a mistake of trying to attack him in chokes. Terran thrives in chokes and getting tanks in good position whereas zerg needs surrounds. The only way youre going to beat a good T is with good surround/harass. The one battle or 2 idra won in that game was because he surrounded his opponent.
Well, the problem is that once you reach ~150+ food, the entire map becomes a choke. It's not like youre fighting in the Arizona desert.
Brood lords + muta are the answer, I suppose, but the issue is that it is so easy for him to snipe (slow) brood lords with vikings and retreat to his thor.
Mutas can beat vikings head to head, but its hard when he has thor also since you have to maintain the antisplash box.
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I have been testing out a new build for ZvT (but its even more dominant against P), which i have found to be very effective. It's a variant to the 5 Roach Rush, which i'm calling the 8 Roach Rush.
Build Order:
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9 Overlord
14 Pool
14 Gas -> 3 Workers to Gas on completion
Drone to 16
Pool Completes: Queen(to 18 Supply, inject on spawn) then Roach Warren
18 Overlord x 2
Then Roach till 34
34 Overlord
Speedling Upgrade
Lings when you can
Transition depending on the outcome of the attack
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Now this is the simplest case when you receive no heavy harass from reapers or what not. Make a few lings early if you're getting harrassed. Using this build, you should have 8 roaches by 5:15 and at the opponents base at 6 mins roughly. Lings should come a bit later, after the attack has started. Most of the time the game gg's right there, but heavily defended terran bases may be impenetrable. At which point you transition out. I consider this build a semi All in. I reason why i like this build so much, is because it allows zerg to be on the offensive and whittles the terran ball down, in effect delaying the "big push" and hopefully never letting the T get to 200/200.
I'm currently playing at 600 - 700 diamond and i have quite a few replays of this working against a variety of strategies (including proxy reaper harass and marine rush) which i will provide on request. I will note that i don't consider myself a pro; just a noob with a strong build order. Feedback is welcome!
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It seems Terran players have switched from "Terran's aren't winning tournaments" into "If you aren't pro, the imbalance doesn't matter" argument.
In Brood War, 200/200 armies clashing at least depended on the composition and micro of the players, not the race, as is the case in Starcraft ll. Now you're expected to suicide your 200/200 army, and instantly create a new one to overrun. Well, now Terran players are learning they can make more than 4 Barracks or Factories after they take their third base.
As much as people want to claim "It's only noticeable in pro play", that's simply not true. The amount of options, builds, and units available to Terran are overall just more viable than Zerg. If you are playing Zerg against Terran, and the Terran player manages to hold his half of the map, it's gg. There's a point where the Terran player can simply spam Barracks/Factories that will out-produce even double hatches at every expo, and because his force is incredibly more efficient than yours, you will starve yourself out, and he'll 1A over to your main.
In the following months more and more players will discover this. Virtually everything about Terran will be nerfed, or Protoss and Zerg will be majorly buffed. I can almost guaranty it. Terran, as it stands, and probably because it is their expansion, are simply too good as of right now.
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I play zerg because I like the way its mechanics work, and it compliments my playstyle! You should do the same, the potential for an imbalance shouldn't effect your decision, yes playing T is hard.... but I'd rather enjoy the race I play as, and lose some than play an "imba autowin race" that I don't enjoy as much.
In the end, its a game, play it for fun, choose the race you enjoy
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It doesn't really matter in terms of balance. More so it's:
If you want to get good fast don't play zerg.
If you want to follow build orders don't play zerg.
If you want to control your matches don't play zerg.
If you get frustrated from losing don't play zerg zerg losses are way more frustrating than the other races.
If you don't have a good memory you probably should play zerg.
If you don't min- OMG PUSH THE BUTTON NOWNOWNOWNOWNOW -d spawning larva
if you don't mind losing by winning battles.
If you don't mind losing hard and fast because you guessed intention wrong.
If you make it past all the above and enjoy an expansionist style of play with heavy emphasis on flanking and positioning then zerg might be right for you.
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Zerg early game is super weak vs. Terran, but I find that by making the correct mix of Roach/Speedling/Baneling (you may need all 3 unit types to survive) I can usually take and keep a FE.
Then it enters the mid game at 2-base Z vs. 1-base T which is pretty balanced. With effective muta harass, I can usually make it 3-base vs. 1-base or 4-base vs. 2-base and then just outmacro and steamroll them.
However if you don't scout perfectly or make the correct counter units in the early game, you will lose outright. This is what can make ZvT so frustrating - that many games are over with the first Terran push.
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On September 01 2010 09:11 Moja wrote:
Btw there's no reason a 200/200 zerg army can't beat a 200/200 terran army. It all comes down to unit composition and control. Plus you should hit that 200/200 threshold first. And you'll be able to instantly rebuild your army after the battle.
You must play Terran... The only time 200/200 Terran army will loose to an equal PSI Zerg is if it's a Bio ball against ling/bling and thats a MAYBE. The only way top beat a Terran maxed is to macro better than him and keep pumping units and spawning larvae.
If I ever have a max army and I know he is maxed I will absolutely NEVER go head on with him. NEVER! Got to find another way and sometimes if he is mech then it's pretty much GG because I let him get his forces up.
On September 01 2010 11:54 Grimjim wrote:
It seems Terran players have switched from "Terran's aren't winning tournaments" into "If you aren't pro, the imbalance doesn't matter" argument.
Yeah, pretty sad because I notice the imbalance even more than a pro because a pro can micro/macro better than me and deal with mass siege pushes. Honestly I think high Plat to low/mid Diamond is where it's most imbalanced.
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On September 01 2010 09:38 Yaotzin wrote:Rofl what. It's embarassing how easily mutalisks kill vikings. In low numbers it's a slightly fair contest but with 10+ the bouncing glaves make it a bit sad.
+1. Vikings typically are great at sniping a few muta's right at the beginning but after that initial volley they are downright terrible vs muta.
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"Most people parrot what their respective races most skilled players say, not realizing or ignoring the fact that at their own levels, losses come from terrible play rather than said imbalance."
This is not true. Play any map with lots of chokes and you'll see how imba terran is vs zerg. The major downside to a mech army is lack of mobility, but you don't need mobility when you can just slow push to half the map, and take up half the resources on the map. Zerg is very resource-inefficient, and a maxed zerg army can't push against an entrenched maxed terran army at all. This devolves into a massive wait-it-out game where the terran has an unbelievable advantage. Brood lords don't work well when they have so many resources that they can pump out a swarm of vikings on whim. And don't gimme that "that means their ground force is weak" because you try massing a ground army strong enough to go up against a few tanks with thors at a choke WHILE having the money to go brood lord.
I know when I make dumb mistakes, but I played a match where it was solely because of the massive map turtling that I lost after over an hour, and that is very frustrating.
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EPT
