|
I'm running across random threads here talking (complaining) about ZvT. I like the way Zerg works, and I'm considering whether to invest the time to perfect a few build orders.
One guy felt let down that his 60 roach army didn't stand up to a nearly fully supply capped Terran mech w/ Marine support. The sentiment was that Roaches were the counter to Marines and Hellions, so he should have won. I'm reminded of a replay I saw of Idra v. some hot shot terran player on Kulas Ravine. Basically, Idra took every expansion on the map, had about 50 workers and kept bashing the Terran front with Ultras. He lost every time the armies clashed. But before I get to who won the game, there are a few points to make.
1) The terran army's range becomes a greater advantage the larger the army is. Everyone knows this. And so of course, 1a'ing into a mech base with any amount of Roaches is going to fail. But on the other hand, what other route is there to keep a Terran opponent from gathering this critical mass of units? You see, you can't really say that as Zerg, you're just supposed to set up more expansions and out-macro the Terran until he moves out. At 5 expansions to 2, you'll still come up to the 200 supply barrier where Zerg cannot win no matter its composition. In this particular game with Idra, he was banking resources that he could not use literally the entire time after 8 min or so. So, the option Zerg seems to be forced into is making small attacks of attrition against the Terran army when its turtling. And without Dark Swarm or whatever, that simply can't happen.
2) Burrow used to be and still is a solution for getting your Roaches in good position. You can spring up right on top of the mech, focus the thors/marauders down first, and the losses become more managable, especially with micro'ing wounded Roaches back to Burrow to heal up. But in this game with Idra, he did not burrow a single unit, and may not have even researched Burrow from what I remember. I find it hard to believe that it simply slipped his mind. He probably knew that the Terran player was keeping 50 energy open for a scan, that micro'ing around the scan was going to be too impractical, and so decided not to even drop the 100/100. I see burrow less and less in pro replays, for reasons I probably don't even know myself very well. But I see in my own TvZ's that the issue is the same as #1. You can't move with burrow (or if your Roaches can move, they still can't get inside a turtle). And so Terran is free to macro up 2 bases and get to 200/200, the point where Zerg has no hope.
3) Commentators like Day9 and TLO have stated before that they don't believe in imbalance. The argument is that there is always a strategy that a player can pursue to win, such as early pushes, out-macro'ing, better micro, etc. I can certainly accept that when I lose it's because I'm not as good as Day9 and TLO. Sometimes I forget to get Infestors, whose fungal growth is good agaisnt bio balls and Hellions. I also often see my zerg armies full of one unit type. The player is still the most important variable in a game that is so fast paced. However, I doubt even these players would argue for a race being balanced whose units all had 1 health each, as an extreme example. So, there exists such a thing as imbalance, even if it is only an abstract notion. Moreover, if the route around imbalance is finding an alternate strategy, what if your opponent can easily maneuver out of this counter strategy? I have seen a lot of pro replays recently where the Terran player is incredibly passive, waiting for that max supply threshold. So, you can take out pushing early and out-macro'ing as viable work-arounds to the imbalance issue. For the third time, what does Zerg do against a turtling terran who waits until critical mass to push?
So, as for the results of this Idra game, Idra won. How he did it was finally catching the Terran army out of position at a point where he was mined out. Zergling flank, Ultralisk tank, Infestor Fungal Growth. He used the ledge wonderfully and caught the Terrans all in a line, a beautiful thing to see. But Idra himself made the comment afterwards that the Terran had played poorly to have inflicted such losses throughout the game and still lose. And the Terran player expressed his opinion in the game also that the MU was imbalanced.
So, what's really going on with ZvT?
|
I play zerg, diamond 900pts, and the only MU i win is the ZvT. ZvZ is hard (I win almost half of the time), ZvP is even harder but I almost always wins ZvT. Bio = sling/bling and mutas (to force marines) and mech is roaches/slings/maybe mutas. I don't even have to tech to T3 a lot of the time.
I do think T is OP and P slightly OP (compared to Z), but that just means that the T players you meet are not as skilled as you are (since they have an easier race). So if you're just laddering I don't see a problem with going Z. In tournaments you've got a problem since you have to be not only the best but even better, but in Ladder games I don't see the problem, except for scouting issues.
EDIT: sorry I didn't really read ur post but I thought this was important information  and yes, burrowed banelings/roaches is the most awesome thing in sc2
|
Just try it. Play some ZvT and you'll start to understand why everyone is complaining. Hey, if you have fun with z and manage to win. More power to you. But I doubt it'll be as easy as you think.
|
IdrA played crap against drewbie, so stubborn. One of his flaws.
ZvT is somewhat broken at the pro level, but the lower down you go the less it matters. At mid diamond (<1k or so?) it's virtually irrelevant.
And so Terran is free to macro up 2 bases and get to 200/200, the point where Zerg has no hope.
This really isn't true. Such ideas are so bad to get in your head.
|
[B
This really isn't true. Such ideas are so bad to get in your head.
Please show 1 replay of a zerg winning vs a 200/200 T army. It could happen in BW, I have NEVER seen it happen in SC2 vs any competant T player.
|
In ZvT, there are literally way too many openings and timing attacks that the zerg has to deal with. Fuck up 1 scout or make a few too many drones its gg.
People say zerg can just expand all over the map, but it's pretty difficult to stop the terran from expanding as well. Once planet fortress is up, it's not going down till you get ultras or broodlords.
You don't want the terran to reach critical mass, yet you can't stop the terran from doing so because of siege + walls.
It is often too difficult to survive and get ultras and broodlords. The terran will scan and push you when they see Hive.
It feels like the terran can freestyle and make any unit they want, and it would be a good composition against zerg.
If the terran decides to attack the zerg and zerg managed to hold it, that doesn't mean zerg is winning since most likely you didn't make drones for the entire attack. Yet Terran has no problems in his base. If this was the other way around its gg.
Terran units are more cost efficient than zerg.
Zerg is a reactionary race, yet choosing the correct counter for the Terran composition might not win you the game, even with a superior army (in terms of food)
|
I think that any problems that may exist will be fixed with the current patch notes anyway. The tank gets alot weaker and reaper rushes get slowed, should solve the most hot issues with this matchup.
I think one small change at a time is the best way to approach it, the tank approach can be huge in reviving the viability of hydra's and lings for example.
The FE seems golden against protoss as well after the changes, 10 gating seriously slower and 4 gate warpgate also seriously nerfed.
Seems like many of the matchups will turn into macro fests instead of 1 base plays more and more.
|
If you're asking us for advice, odds are the balance at high levels won't really affect you too much.
Most if not all the games you lose will be due to user error rather than racial imbalance.
|
generally the best answer to beating a turtling terran is getting broodlords. broodlords outrange pretty much all that terran ground can bring to bear, and with some focus fire on thors and using mutalisks and corrupters to mop up vikings your pretty much set. another great way to win is to simply get 200 banelings and right click far past there army, generally you will kill everything they have, the trick is of course getting 200 banelings. another good one to do is to use nydus worms and pump zerglings intot here base to kill as much as you can, making them starve is very important.
if they turtle you can take the map and generally win, the enemy army itself will roll over pretty much everything in a face to face fight except for ultralisk/hydra with possible infestor or broodlord mutalisk/corrupter with roaches and lings.
zvt is a very fun matchup, more often then not you will see terran playing aggressive bio builds than turtling mech.
|
lately ive been going 2 base muta against terran. ling/bling support. this works pretty well most of the time. stimmed marines are the biggest thread, hence the blings.
the way games seem to go is terran will stay on one base for a long time. they have enough resources for 2 maybe 3 pushes off one base. you just have to fight those off and use your mutas to stop any expansions asap. once he is mined out you win.
do not neglect a fairly sizable ling/bling force, i lost a game today where i forgot to mutate blings, i could have won if i had done this. i leave mine chillin in between my main and nat to mop up any drops, and harass with mutas constantly.
if the terran dude puts up mass turrets then he is dumb. just take another base and pump even more mutas. once you are above 25 u can just push into his base if all there is is turrets.
personally i think zvt is balanced once you get out of the early game. practice enough and reapers and hellions are certainly annoying and frustrating but not op.
zvp is a blast (hydra/roach/corruptor). zvz is an acquired taste but if the game goes to the midgame it can be a lot of fun (hint: infestors). at the very least most zvz's are over quickly (baneling his mineral line ftw, cant count how many times ive done that.)
at the very least, patch 1.1 will be beneficial to zergs and maybe allow for more diversity in zvt strats. zerg is very fun to play, i highly recommend it.
|
Are you winning $50,000 tournaments playing SC2? If not, then whether or not there is imbalance is irrelevant. Better play will trump whatever subtle imbalance might exist. Idra might complain about imbalance, but guess what? He's still playing zerg, and he's still crushing top terran players.
In ZvT if you just go speedlings into mutalisks and banelings, you should have no problem winning your way into top diamond. The key is learning to defend your early expo from Terran aggression, and knowing when to drone, when to expand, and when to build your army and fight/harass.
Btw there's no reason a 200/200 zerg army can't beat a 200/200 terran army. It all comes down to unit composition and control. Plus you should hit that 200/200 threshold first. And you'll be able to instantly rebuild your army after the battle.
If you like zerg, play it. I honestly expect zerg to have the advantage in the matchup with the incoming patch.
|
On September 01 2010 09:08 claricorp wrote:
generally the best answer to beating a turtling terran is getting broodlords. broodlords outrange pretty much all that terran ground can bring to bear, and with some focus fire on thors and using mutalisks and corrupters to mop up vikings your pretty much set. another great way to win is to simply get 200 banelings and right click far past there army, generally you will kill everything they have, the trick is of course getting 200 banelings. another good one to do is to use nydus worms and pump zerglings intot here base to kill as much as you can, making them starve is very important.
if they turtle you can take the map and generally win, the enemy army itself will roll over pretty much everything in a face to face fight except for ultralisk/hydra with possible infestor or broodlord mutalisk/corrupter with roaches and lings.
zvt is a very fun matchup, more often then not you will see terran playing aggressive bio builds than turtling mech.
Broodlords < vikings
200 thousand banelings < some tanks
Zergligns into base < wall
|
I think that when Day9 and TLO say they don't believe in imbalance, they don't mean that they think the game is perfectly balanced or that they don't have any opinions about what might need to change. I think the point is that they believe in dismissing those thoughts when it comes to their own play. Since everyone has aspects of their play they can improve, they choose to focus on that. Figuring out where you can improve and how to do it is a much more constructive use of your time and energy than composing a thesis on TL about how and why X is imbalanced and how to best fix it, especially when everyone and their dog has already said everything 1,000 times.
|
On September 01 2010 09:11 ioRa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 09:08 claricorp wrote:
generally the best answer to beating a turtling terran is getting broodlords. broodlords outrange pretty much all that terran ground can bring to bear, and with some focus fire on thors and using mutalisks and corrupters to mop up vikings your pretty much set. another great way to win is to simply get 200 banelings and right click far past there army, generally you will kill everything they have, the trick is of course getting 200 banelings. another good one to do is to use nydus worms and pump zerglings intot here base to kill as much as you can, making them starve is very important.
if they turtle you can take the map and generally win, the enemy army itself will roll over pretty much everything in a face to face fight except for ultralisk/hydra with possible infestor or broodlord mutalisk/corrupter with roaches and lings.
zvt is a very fun matchup, more often then not you will see terran playing aggressive bio builds than turtling mech. Broodlords < vikings 200 thousand banelings < some tanks Zergligns into base < wall
Vikings < mutalisks
some tanks < broodlords
wall < broodlords
...
These kinds of posts aren't helpful
|
ZvT is imbalance but you can get around this just like in broodwar. Their are timings both players can abuse. Just remember and prepare for everything the terran will throw at you. Assuming youll go lings into mutas into baneling/infestor the timings are roughly as followed.
Terran will always try to delay your hatchery with early reapers, early hellions from reactor factory, or his first 5 marines and hellion.
Terran on some maps with a thor or tank drop on the cliff above your expo.
Terran can make a fast banshee to kill your queen then all your workers so extra queens is advised. (Standard zerg builds should get you 2 queens in time)
Terran doing the 1/1/1 build will sometimes have a scouting viking to snipe overlords and see your tech.
Terran will always do a midgame push to secure their expo right before your mutas are being made or finished.
Terran will turtle and macro until they can secure 3rd. Do not let them get a 3rd with your mutas.
Terran can use medivacs to drop in your main so make sure you have good overlord placement.
Terran will turret and bunker up the center of the map with seige tanks try your best to prevent this but if you cant avoid this and back stab his expos and main with mutas or ling drops.
NEVER ENGAGE THE TERRAN ARMY WITH OUT A SURROUNDING FLANK OR WHILE HIS TANKS ARE SEIGED!
Ultras are a good thing to tech too but never make too many as it can cost you all your gas/ minerals. Having only ultras will not win you the match as banshee or viking or battle cursier late game is popular for terran.
If you still want to try out zerg id recomend it as i think once people figure out how to maximize their potental we will witness/play longer more epic matches.
|
Idra just kept sending ultras at Drewbies marauders, bad idea. He won when he got brood lords. He should have gotten them ages ago. Drewbie played a good game and takes wins against many good players.
Play zerg if you want.
It'll be a cold day in hell before SC2 Zerg players say its balanced. Its dogma now.
|
On September 01 2010 09:04 Balor wrote:Please show 1 replay of a zerg winning vs a 200/200 T army. It could happen in BW, I have NEVER seen it happen in SC2 vs any competant T player.
I think Dimaga straight up killed some huge T armies at IEM, not sure. I meant that the game isn't over if he hits 200/200, given how fast you can remake an army.
Regardless, you should never be thinking "oh woe is me all hope is lost". You'll never get better if all you can think about is how imba Terran is. And EVERYONE can still get better at SC2.
|
On September 01 2010 09:16 Moja wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 09:11 ioRa wrote:On September 01 2010 09:08 claricorp wrote:
generally the best answer to beating a turtling terran is getting broodlords. broodlords outrange pretty much all that terran ground can bring to bear, and with some focus fire on thors and using mutalisks and corrupters to mop up vikings your pretty much set. another great way to win is to simply get 200 banelings and right click far past there army, generally you will kill everything they have, the trick is of course getting 200 banelings. another good one to do is to use nydus worms and pump zerglings intot here base to kill as much as you can, making them starve is very important.
if they turtle you can take the map and generally win, the enemy army itself will roll over pretty much everything in a face to face fight except for ultralisk/hydra with possible infestor or broodlord mutalisk/corrupter with roaches and lings.
zvt is a very fun matchup, more often then not you will see terran playing aggressive bio builds than turtling mech. Broodlords < vikings 200 thousand banelings < some tanks Zergligns into base < wall Vikings < mutalisks some tanks < broodlords wall < broodlords ... These kinds of posts aren't helpful
Have you read the quote in my post? He said make 200 banelings is a great way to win, I'm just saying how it could be easily countered.
|
On September 01 2010 09:16 Moja wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 09:11 ioRa wrote:On September 01 2010 09:08 claricorp wrote:
generally the best answer to beating a turtling terran is getting broodlords. broodlords outrange pretty much all that terran ground can bring to bear, and with some focus fire on thors and using mutalisks and corrupters to mop up vikings your pretty much set. another great way to win is to simply get 200 banelings and right click far past there army, generally you will kill everything they have, the trick is of course getting 200 banelings. another good one to do is to use nydus worms and pump zerglings intot here base to kill as much as you can, making them starve is very important.
if they turtle you can take the map and generally win, the enemy army itself will roll over pretty much everything in a face to face fight except for ultralisk/hydra with possible infestor or broodlord mutalisk/corrupter with roaches and lings.
zvt is a very fun matchup, more often then not you will see terran playing aggressive bio builds than turtling mech. Broodlords < vikings 200 thousand banelings < some tanks Zergligns into base < wall Vikings < mutalisks some tanks < broodlords wall < broodlords ... These kinds of posts aren't helpful
Vikings KILLLLLL mutalisks.
And the problem is the end game. Some one earlier said all you have to do is fend off the 2-3 mech pushes until he mines out and it's gg, but you have to remember that's just a horrible player. I mean, he should have at least took an expansion. And that's the problem. Yes, against a player who just builds, push, builds, push, I'm also able to barely keep it off. But when they actually are a good player and expanding with it, it becomes almost unbearable. Muta/ling/bling is about all you can do but you can never really do a death blow because of turrets and siege. You just keep fighting and hope he gets out of position to kill some SCVs, starve him from getting a 3rd or 4th, and finally gg.
And that's what I think the main problem is: no kill push. There's no lurkers to bombard the front. Broodlords and Ultras are all you have. That means, you can only win by going into the late game! Early game, repairing walls beats lings. Midgame, repairing wall with tanks and repairing turrets beats all you have. End game, you finally have a chance with broodlords and ultras! However, this means you really are only winning the games that get that far, not to mention you still don't win all of those. It's a problem the higher you get because you don't get as many stupid "oh, he forgot turrets, I win" and "he forgot to put his wall up" meaning there really is no chance of you getting those earlier wins that he can get.
|
On September 01 2010 09:11 ioRa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 09:08 claricorp wrote:
generally the best answer to beating a turtling terran is getting broodlords. broodlords outrange pretty much all that terran ground can bring to bear, and with some focus fire on thors and using mutalisks and corrupters to mop up vikings your pretty much set. another great way to win is to simply get 200 banelings and right click far past there army, generally you will kill everything they have, the trick is of course getting 200 banelings. another good one to do is to use nydus worms and pump zerglings intot here base to kill as much as you can, making them starve is very important.
if they turtle you can take the map and generally win, the enemy army itself will roll over pretty much everything in a face to face fight except for ultralisk/hydra with possible infestor or broodlord mutalisk/corrupter with roaches and lings.
zvt is a very fun matchup, more often then not you will see terran playing aggressive bio builds than turtling mech. Broodlords < vikings 200 thousand banelings < some tanks Zergligns into base < wall
You < a helpful post
Anyways, I think that as zerg you arnt supposed to be able to easily beat a 200/200 T army with yours. Then zerg would be Op cause they can literally rebuild instantly. Youre supposed to weaken his army, rebuild and keep attacking until he has nothing left.
Also, idra made a mistake of trying to attack him in chokes. Terran thrives in chokes and getting tanks in good position whereas zerg needs surrounds. The only way youre going to beat a good T is with good surround/harass. The one battle or 2 idra won in that game was because he surrounded his opponent.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
