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I'm running across random threads here talking (complaining) about ZvT. I like the way Zerg works, and I'm considering whether to invest the time to perfect a few build orders.
One guy felt let down that his 60 roach army didn't stand up to a nearly fully supply capped Terran mech w/ Marine support. The sentiment was that Roaches were the counter to Marines and Hellions, so he should have won. I'm reminded of a replay I saw of Idra v. some hot shot terran player on Kulas Ravine. Basically, Idra took every expansion on the map, had about 50 workers and kept bashing the Terran front with Ultras. He lost every time the armies clashed. But before I get to who won the game, there are a few points to make.
1) The terran army's range becomes a greater advantage the larger the army is. Everyone knows this. And so of course, 1a'ing into a mech base with any amount of Roaches is going to fail. But on the other hand, what other route is there to keep a Terran opponent from gathering this critical mass of units? You see, you can't really say that as Zerg, you're just supposed to set up more expansions and out-macro the Terran until he moves out. At 5 expansions to 2, you'll still come up to the 200 supply barrier where Zerg cannot win no matter its composition. In this particular game with Idra, he was banking resources that he could not use literally the entire time after 8 min or so. So, the option Zerg seems to be forced into is making small attacks of attrition against the Terran army when its turtling. And without Dark Swarm or whatever, that simply can't happen.
2) Burrow used to be and still is a solution for getting your Roaches in good position. You can spring up right on top of the mech, focus the thors/marauders down first, and the losses become more managable, especially with micro'ing wounded Roaches back to Burrow to heal up. But in this game with Idra, he did not burrow a single unit, and may not have even researched Burrow from what I remember. I find it hard to believe that it simply slipped his mind. He probably knew that the Terran player was keeping 50 energy open for a scan, that micro'ing around the scan was going to be too impractical, and so decided not to even drop the 100/100. I see burrow less and less in pro replays, for reasons I probably don't even know myself very well. But I see in my own TvZ's that the issue is the same as #1. You can't move with burrow (or if your Roaches can move, they still can't get inside a turtle). And so Terran is free to macro up 2 bases and get to 200/200, the point where Zerg has no hope.
3) Commentators like Day9 and TLO have stated before that they don't believe in imbalance. The argument is that there is always a strategy that a player can pursue to win, such as early pushes, out-macro'ing, better micro, etc. I can certainly accept that when I lose it's because I'm not as good as Day9 and TLO. Sometimes I forget to get Infestors, whose fungal growth is good agaisnt bio balls and Hellions. I also often see my zerg armies full of one unit type. The player is still the most important variable in a game that is so fast paced. However, I doubt even these players would argue for a race being balanced whose units all had 1 health each, as an extreme example. So, there exists such a thing as imbalance, even if it is only an abstract notion. Moreover, if the route around imbalance is finding an alternate strategy, what if your opponent can easily maneuver out of this counter strategy? I have seen a lot of pro replays recently where the Terran player is incredibly passive, waiting for that max supply threshold. So, you can take out pushing early and out-macro'ing as viable work-arounds to the imbalance issue. For the third time, what does Zerg do against a turtling terran who waits until critical mass to push?
So, as for the results of this Idra game, Idra won. How he did it was finally catching the Terran army out of position at a point where he was mined out. Zergling flank, Ultralisk tank, Infestor Fungal Growth. He used the ledge wonderfully and caught the Terrans all in a line, a beautiful thing to see. But Idra himself made the comment afterwards that the Terran had played poorly to have inflicted such losses throughout the game and still lose. And the Terran player expressed his opinion in the game also that the MU was imbalanced.
So, what's really going on with ZvT?
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I play zerg, diamond 900pts, and the only MU i win is the ZvT. ZvZ is hard (I win almost half of the time), ZvP is even harder but I almost always wins ZvT. Bio = sling/bling and mutas (to force marines) and mech is roaches/slings/maybe mutas. I don't even have to tech to T3 a lot of the time.
I do think T is OP and P slightly OP (compared to Z), but that just means that the T players you meet are not as skilled as you are (since they have an easier race). So if you're just laddering I don't see a problem with going Z. In tournaments you've got a problem since you have to be not only the best but even better, but in Ladder games I don't see the problem, except for scouting issues.
EDIT: sorry I didn't really read ur post but I thought this was important information  and yes, burrowed banelings/roaches is the most awesome thing in sc2
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Just try it. Play some ZvT and you'll start to understand why everyone is complaining. Hey, if you have fun with z and manage to win. More power to you. But I doubt it'll be as easy as you think.
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IdrA played crap against drewbie, so stubborn. One of his flaws.
ZvT is somewhat broken at the pro level, but the lower down you go the less it matters. At mid diamond (<1k or so?) it's virtually irrelevant.
And so Terran is free to macro up 2 bases and get to 200/200, the point where Zerg has no hope.
This really isn't true. Such ideas are so bad to get in your head.
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[B
This really isn't true. Such ideas are so bad to get in your head.
Please show 1 replay of a zerg winning vs a 200/200 T army. It could happen in BW, I have NEVER seen it happen in SC2 vs any competant T player.
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In ZvT, there are literally way too many openings and timing attacks that the zerg has to deal with. Fuck up 1 scout or make a few too many drones its gg.
People say zerg can just expand all over the map, but it's pretty difficult to stop the terran from expanding as well. Once planet fortress is up, it's not going down till you get ultras or broodlords.
You don't want the terran to reach critical mass, yet you can't stop the terran from doing so because of siege + walls.
It is often too difficult to survive and get ultras and broodlords. The terran will scan and push you when they see Hive.
It feels like the terran can freestyle and make any unit they want, and it would be a good composition against zerg.
If the terran decides to attack the zerg and zerg managed to hold it, that doesn't mean zerg is winning since most likely you didn't make drones for the entire attack. Yet Terran has no problems in his base. If this was the other way around its gg.
Terran units are more cost efficient than zerg.
Zerg is a reactionary race, yet choosing the correct counter for the Terran composition might not win you the game, even with a superior army (in terms of food)
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I think that any problems that may exist will be fixed with the current patch notes anyway. The tank gets alot weaker and reaper rushes get slowed, should solve the most hot issues with this matchup.
I think one small change at a time is the best way to approach it, the tank approach can be huge in reviving the viability of hydra's and lings for example.
The FE seems golden against protoss as well after the changes, 10 gating seriously slower and 4 gate warpgate also seriously nerfed.
Seems like many of the matchups will turn into macro fests instead of 1 base plays more and more.
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If you're asking us for advice, odds are the balance at high levels won't really affect you too much.
Most if not all the games you lose will be due to user error rather than racial imbalance.
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generally the best answer to beating a turtling terran is getting broodlords. broodlords outrange pretty much all that terran ground can bring to bear, and with some focus fire on thors and using mutalisks and corrupters to mop up vikings your pretty much set. another great way to win is to simply get 200 banelings and right click far past there army, generally you will kill everything they have, the trick is of course getting 200 banelings. another good one to do is to use nydus worms and pump zerglings intot here base to kill as much as you can, making them starve is very important.
if they turtle you can take the map and generally win, the enemy army itself will roll over pretty much everything in a face to face fight except for ultralisk/hydra with possible infestor or broodlord mutalisk/corrupter with roaches and lings.
zvt is a very fun matchup, more often then not you will see terran playing aggressive bio builds than turtling mech.
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lately ive been going 2 base muta against terran. ling/bling support. this works pretty well most of the time. stimmed marines are the biggest thread, hence the blings.
the way games seem to go is terran will stay on one base for a long time. they have enough resources for 2 maybe 3 pushes off one base. you just have to fight those off and use your mutas to stop any expansions asap. once he is mined out you win.
do not neglect a fairly sizable ling/bling force, i lost a game today where i forgot to mutate blings, i could have won if i had done this. i leave mine chillin in between my main and nat to mop up any drops, and harass with mutas constantly.
if the terran dude puts up mass turrets then he is dumb. just take another base and pump even more mutas. once you are above 25 u can just push into his base if all there is is turrets.
personally i think zvt is balanced once you get out of the early game. practice enough and reapers and hellions are certainly annoying and frustrating but not op.
zvp is a blast (hydra/roach/corruptor). zvz is an acquired taste but if the game goes to the midgame it can be a lot of fun (hint: infestors). at the very least most zvz's are over quickly (baneling his mineral line ftw, cant count how many times ive done that.)
at the very least, patch 1.1 will be beneficial to zergs and maybe allow for more diversity in zvt strats. zerg is very fun to play, i highly recommend it.
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Are you winning $50,000 tournaments playing SC2? If not, then whether or not there is imbalance is irrelevant. Better play will trump whatever subtle imbalance might exist. Idra might complain about imbalance, but guess what? He's still playing zerg, and he's still crushing top terran players.
In ZvT if you just go speedlings into mutalisks and banelings, you should have no problem winning your way into top diamond. The key is learning to defend your early expo from Terran aggression, and knowing when to drone, when to expand, and when to build your army and fight/harass.
Btw there's no reason a 200/200 zerg army can't beat a 200/200 terran army. It all comes down to unit composition and control. Plus you should hit that 200/200 threshold first. And you'll be able to instantly rebuild your army after the battle.
If you like zerg, play it. I honestly expect zerg to have the advantage in the matchup with the incoming patch.
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On September 01 2010 09:08 claricorp wrote:
generally the best answer to beating a turtling terran is getting broodlords. broodlords outrange pretty much all that terran ground can bring to bear, and with some focus fire on thors and using mutalisks and corrupters to mop up vikings your pretty much set. another great way to win is to simply get 200 banelings and right click far past there army, generally you will kill everything they have, the trick is of course getting 200 banelings. another good one to do is to use nydus worms and pump zerglings intot here base to kill as much as you can, making them starve is very important.
if they turtle you can take the map and generally win, the enemy army itself will roll over pretty much everything in a face to face fight except for ultralisk/hydra with possible infestor or broodlord mutalisk/corrupter with roaches and lings.
zvt is a very fun matchup, more often then not you will see terran playing aggressive bio builds than turtling mech.
Broodlords < vikings
200 thousand banelings < some tanks
Zergligns into base < wall
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I think that when Day9 and TLO say they don't believe in imbalance, they don't mean that they think the game is perfectly balanced or that they don't have any opinions about what might need to change. I think the point is that they believe in dismissing those thoughts when it comes to their own play. Since everyone has aspects of their play they can improve, they choose to focus on that. Figuring out where you can improve and how to do it is a much more constructive use of your time and energy than composing a thesis on TL about how and why X is imbalanced and how to best fix it, especially when everyone and their dog has already said everything 1,000 times.
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On September 01 2010 09:11 ioRa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 09:08 claricorp wrote:
generally the best answer to beating a turtling terran is getting broodlords. broodlords outrange pretty much all that terran ground can bring to bear, and with some focus fire on thors and using mutalisks and corrupters to mop up vikings your pretty much set. another great way to win is to simply get 200 banelings and right click far past there army, generally you will kill everything they have, the trick is of course getting 200 banelings. another good one to do is to use nydus worms and pump zerglings intot here base to kill as much as you can, making them starve is very important.
if they turtle you can take the map and generally win, the enemy army itself will roll over pretty much everything in a face to face fight except for ultralisk/hydra with possible infestor or broodlord mutalisk/corrupter with roaches and lings.
zvt is a very fun matchup, more often then not you will see terran playing aggressive bio builds than turtling mech. Broodlords < vikings 200 thousand banelings < some tanks Zergligns into base < wall
Vikings < mutalisks
some tanks < broodlords
wall < broodlords
...
These kinds of posts aren't helpful
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ZvT is imbalance but you can get around this just like in broodwar. Their are timings both players can abuse. Just remember and prepare for everything the terran will throw at you. Assuming youll go lings into mutas into baneling/infestor the timings are roughly as followed.
Terran will always try to delay your hatchery with early reapers, early hellions from reactor factory, or his first 5 marines and hellion.
Terran on some maps with a thor or tank drop on the cliff above your expo.
Terran can make a fast banshee to kill your queen then all your workers so extra queens is advised. (Standard zerg builds should get you 2 queens in time)
Terran doing the 1/1/1 build will sometimes have a scouting viking to snipe overlords and see your tech.
Terran will always do a midgame push to secure their expo right before your mutas are being made or finished.
Terran will turtle and macro until they can secure 3rd. Do not let them get a 3rd with your mutas.
Terran can use medivacs to drop in your main so make sure you have good overlord placement.
Terran will turret and bunker up the center of the map with seige tanks try your best to prevent this but if you cant avoid this and back stab his expos and main with mutas or ling drops.
NEVER ENGAGE THE TERRAN ARMY WITH OUT A SURROUNDING FLANK OR WHILE HIS TANKS ARE SEIGED!
Ultras are a good thing to tech too but never make too many as it can cost you all your gas/ minerals. Having only ultras will not win you the match as banshee or viking or battle cursier late game is popular for terran.
If you still want to try out zerg id recomend it as i think once people figure out how to maximize their potental we will witness/play longer more epic matches.
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Idra just kept sending ultras at Drewbies marauders, bad idea. He won when he got brood lords. He should have gotten them ages ago. Drewbie played a good game and takes wins against many good players.
Play zerg if you want.
It'll be a cold day in hell before SC2 Zerg players say its balanced. Its dogma now.
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On September 01 2010 09:04 Balor wrote:Please show 1 replay of a zerg winning vs a 200/200 T army. It could happen in BW, I have NEVER seen it happen in SC2 vs any competant T player.
I think Dimaga straight up killed some huge T armies at IEM, not sure. I meant that the game isn't over if he hits 200/200, given how fast you can remake an army.
Regardless, you should never be thinking "oh woe is me all hope is lost". You'll never get better if all you can think about is how imba Terran is. And EVERYONE can still get better at SC2.
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On September 01 2010 09:16 Moja wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 09:11 ioRa wrote:On September 01 2010 09:08 claricorp wrote:
generally the best answer to beating a turtling terran is getting broodlords. broodlords outrange pretty much all that terran ground can bring to bear, and with some focus fire on thors and using mutalisks and corrupters to mop up vikings your pretty much set. another great way to win is to simply get 200 banelings and right click far past there army, generally you will kill everything they have, the trick is of course getting 200 banelings. another good one to do is to use nydus worms and pump zerglings intot here base to kill as much as you can, making them starve is very important.
if they turtle you can take the map and generally win, the enemy army itself will roll over pretty much everything in a face to face fight except for ultralisk/hydra with possible infestor or broodlord mutalisk/corrupter with roaches and lings.
zvt is a very fun matchup, more often then not you will see terran playing aggressive bio builds than turtling mech. Broodlords < vikings 200 thousand banelings < some tanks Zergligns into base < wall Vikings < mutalisks some tanks < broodlords wall < broodlords ... These kinds of posts aren't helpful
Have you read the quote in my post? He said make 200 banelings is a great way to win, I'm just saying how it could be easily countered.
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On September 01 2010 09:16 Moja wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 09:11 ioRa wrote:On September 01 2010 09:08 claricorp wrote:
generally the best answer to beating a turtling terran is getting broodlords. broodlords outrange pretty much all that terran ground can bring to bear, and with some focus fire on thors and using mutalisks and corrupters to mop up vikings your pretty much set. another great way to win is to simply get 200 banelings and right click far past there army, generally you will kill everything they have, the trick is of course getting 200 banelings. another good one to do is to use nydus worms and pump zerglings intot here base to kill as much as you can, making them starve is very important.
if they turtle you can take the map and generally win, the enemy army itself will roll over pretty much everything in a face to face fight except for ultralisk/hydra with possible infestor or broodlord mutalisk/corrupter with roaches and lings.
zvt is a very fun matchup, more often then not you will see terran playing aggressive bio builds than turtling mech. Broodlords < vikings 200 thousand banelings < some tanks Zergligns into base < wall Vikings < mutalisks some tanks < broodlords wall < broodlords ... These kinds of posts aren't helpful
Vikings KILLLLLL mutalisks.
And the problem is the end game. Some one earlier said all you have to do is fend off the 2-3 mech pushes until he mines out and it's gg, but you have to remember that's just a horrible player. I mean, he should have at least took an expansion. And that's the problem. Yes, against a player who just builds, push, builds, push, I'm also able to barely keep it off. But when they actually are a good player and expanding with it, it becomes almost unbearable. Muta/ling/bling is about all you can do but you can never really do a death blow because of turrets and siege. You just keep fighting and hope he gets out of position to kill some SCVs, starve him from getting a 3rd or 4th, and finally gg.
And that's what I think the main problem is: no kill push. There's no lurkers to bombard the front. Broodlords and Ultras are all you have. That means, you can only win by going into the late game! Early game, repairing walls beats lings. Midgame, repairing wall with tanks and repairing turrets beats all you have. End game, you finally have a chance with broodlords and ultras! However, this means you really are only winning the games that get that far, not to mention you still don't win all of those. It's a problem the higher you get because you don't get as many stupid "oh, he forgot turrets, I win" and "he forgot to put his wall up" meaning there really is no chance of you getting those earlier wins that he can get.
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On September 01 2010 09:11 ioRa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 09:08 claricorp wrote:
generally the best answer to beating a turtling terran is getting broodlords. broodlords outrange pretty much all that terran ground can bring to bear, and with some focus fire on thors and using mutalisks and corrupters to mop up vikings your pretty much set. another great way to win is to simply get 200 banelings and right click far past there army, generally you will kill everything they have, the trick is of course getting 200 banelings. another good one to do is to use nydus worms and pump zerglings intot here base to kill as much as you can, making them starve is very important.
if they turtle you can take the map and generally win, the enemy army itself will roll over pretty much everything in a face to face fight except for ultralisk/hydra with possible infestor or broodlord mutalisk/corrupter with roaches and lings.
zvt is a very fun matchup, more often then not you will see terran playing aggressive bio builds than turtling mech. Broodlords < vikings 200 thousand banelings < some tanks Zergligns into base < wall
You < a helpful post
Anyways, I think that as zerg you arnt supposed to be able to easily beat a 200/200 T army with yours. Then zerg would be Op cause they can literally rebuild instantly. Youre supposed to weaken his army, rebuild and keep attacking until he has nothing left.
Also, idra made a mistake of trying to attack him in chokes. Terran thrives in chokes and getting tanks in good position whereas zerg needs surrounds. The only way youre going to beat a good T is with good surround/harass. The one battle or 2 idra won in that game was because he surrounded his opponent.
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On September 01 2010 09:19 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 09:04 Balor wrote:[B
This really isn't true. Such ideas are so bad to get in your head. Please show 1 replay of a zerg winning vs a 200/200 T army. It could happen in BW, I have NEVER seen it happen in SC2 vs any competant T player. I think Dimaga straight up killed some huge T armies at IEM, not sure. I meant that the game isn't over if he hits 200/200, given how fast you can remake an army. Regardless, you should never be thinking "oh woe is me all hope is lost". You'll never get better if all you can think about is how imba Terran is. And EVERYONE can still get better at SC2.
Still, that's out in the open. Trying to break a ramp? Zerg is fun to play, I switched from Protoss to Zerg. However, what I've found is that getting the kill is just insane with repair, siege, and turrets, and so you have to keep doing awesome micro out in the middle and deny expansions for a long drawn out win. If you mess up, he gets an easy win. Imbalanced? Maybe. Who knows. However, Is it easier for the Tarran? It seems to me that at least the second question can only be answered with a simple "Yes". It's like Protoss from BW. It's frustrating, but I feel like I'm improving more than any Tarran who's just 1 basing.
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On September 01 2010 09:31 rackdude wrote:
Vikings KILLLLLL mutalisks.
Rofl what. It's embarassing how easily mutalisks kill vikings. In low numbers it's a slightly fair contest but with 10+ the bouncing glaves make it a bit sad.
And the problem is the end game.
No, it's the early game. Ask any pro.
Some one earlier said all you have to do is fend off the 2-3 mech pushes until he mines out and it's gg, but you have to remember that's just a horrible player. I mean, he should have at least took an expansion. And that's the problem. Yes, against a player who just builds, push, builds, push, I'm also able to barely keep it off. But when they actually are a good player and expanding with it, it becomes almost unbearable. Muta/ling/bling is about all you can do but you can never really do a death blow because of turrets and siege. You just keep fighting and hope he gets out of position to kill some SCVs, starve him from getting a 3rd or 4th, and finally gg.
Broodlords and/or Ultras = deathblow. If you can take out his main force it's trivial to go blow up his main. Thankfully most Terrans are surprisingly reasonable and just gg when their army dies.
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In US top 1v1 top 20 there is 1 zerg.
In Korean 1v1 top 20 there are significantly more but only 1 in top 5 at rank 4.
People say it's a l2p issue with US players but hey, I'm a US player and I'm not at the top of the 1v1 ladder, so I'd say for the vast majority of players T is imba strong and Z imba weak.
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On September 01 2010 09:34 xCyan1de wrote:
Also, idra made a mistake of trying to attack him in chokes. Terran thrives in chokes and getting tanks in good position whereas zerg needs surrounds. The only way youre going to beat a good T is with good surround/harass. The one battle or 2 idra won in that game was because he surrounded his opponent.
What if you have every base and 200/200? Any other race goes "Oh, I have everything. Lets just go over there and kill them". Zerg just have to keep running stuff in there and go "well, it's a choke, but hopefully I'm choking his neck so much that he's whining like my lings that are on fire." In the mean time, Zergs hear off in the distance "woooh, roasted lings! Sounds like dinner!" as he uses one hand to hold off the attack at his choke.
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On September 01 2010 09:38 Yaotzin wrote:Rofl what. It's embarassing how easily mutalisks kill vikings. In low numbers it's a slightly fair contest but with 10+ the bouncing glaves make it a bit sad. No, it's the early game. Ask any pro. Show nested quote +
Some one earlier said all you have to do is fend off the 2-3 mech pushes until he mines out and it's gg, but you have to remember that's just a horrible player. I mean, he should have at least took an expansion. And that's the problem. Yes, against a player who just builds, push, builds, push, I'm also able to barely keep it off. But when they actually are a good player and expanding with it, it becomes almost unbearable. Muta/ling/bling is about all you can do but you can never really do a death blow because of turrets and siege. You just keep fighting and hope he gets out of position to kill some SCVs, starve him from getting a 3rd or 4th, and finally gg.
Broodlords and/or Ultras = deathblow. If you can take out his main force it's trivial to go blow up his main. Thankfully most Terrans are surprisingly reasonable and just gg when their army dies.
It's early and midgame. Anything before Broodlords and Ultras. Yes, ultras and broodlords are a death blow, that's what I say in the part of the post you decided to cleverly not quote. However, getting there is the problem.
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On September 01 2010 09:39 MicroJFox wrote:
In US top 1v1 top 20 there is 1 zerg.
In Korean 1v1 top 20 there are significantly more but only 1 in top 5 at rank 4.
People say it's a l2p issue with US players but hey, I'm a US player and I'm not at the top of the 1v1 ladder, so I'd say for the vast majority of players T is imba strong and Z imba weak.
I agree. Alot of people are complaining about imba but I know of diamond zergs whos ZvT is their strongest matchup. Its all about the surrounds. People have to realize that as zerg you cant just push into him with A move.
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I'd just say zerg is the race you should invest in if you want to put lots of time and practice into this game, as the game mechanics are more frantic for macro. It has a large barrier to entry and yet interestingly, doesn't seem to be rewarding for those willing to put in time either...
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On September 01 2010 09:37 rackdude wrote:
Still, that's out in the open. Trying to break a ramp?
Ramp  Why bother? Just starve him if he's turtling. Nobody starves like Zerg.
Zerg is fun to play, I switched from Protoss to Zerg. However, what I've found is that getting the kill is just insane with repair, siege, and turrets, and so you have to keep doing awesome micro out in the middle and deny expansions for a long drawn out win. If you mess up, he gets an easy win.
Aye it's fun. I switched to random from toss, mostly to play Zerg more. I find if I can get a handle on his main ball (preferably with a gorgeous fungal+baneling explosion :D) a tech to broodlords is pretty much gg. The only way to stop them is vikings but if he has no map control he can't really.
Imbalanced? Maybe. Who knows. However, Is it easier for the Tarran? It seems to me that at least the second question can only be answered with a simple "Yes". It's like Protoss from BW. It's frustrating, but I feel like I'm improving more than any Tarran who's just 1 basing.
Well yeah, Terran is by far the easiest to play. That's why people with self-respect don't play them ^_^
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On September 01 2010 09:43 xCyan1de wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 09:39 MicroJFox wrote:
In US top 1v1 top 20 there is 1 zerg.
In Korean 1v1 top 20 there are significantly more but only 1 in top 5 at rank 4.
People say it's a l2p issue with US players but hey, I'm a US player and I'm not at the top of the 1v1 ladder, so I'd say for the vast majority of players T is imba strong and Z imba weak. I agree. Alot of people are complaining about imba but I know of diamond zergs whos ZvT is their strongest matchup. Its all about the surrounds. People have to realize that as zerg you cant just push into him with A move.
I doubt that IdrA/Sheth etc don't know that surrounding is critical for Zerg success.
Perhaps we can say it better that racial imbalances don't factor in decisively until you reach Pro levels, if then.
Most people parrot what their respective races most skilled players say, not realizing or ignoring the fact that at their own levels, losses come from terrible play rather than said imbalance.
In most games that I win, I can point out over 100 mistakes I made throughout the game... I don't even want to consider games that last longer that I lose in. Diamond level or not, I'm losing because of fail, not because of racial imba, even if I was playing Zerg at the time.
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On September 01 2010 09:42 rackdude wrote:
It's early and midgame. Anything before Broodlords and Ultras. Yes, ultras and broodlords are a death blow, that's what I say in the part of the post you decided to cleverly not quote. However, getting there is the problem.
Virtually all Zerg problems stem from the early game. If he doesn't harrass you (pity Terran needs to be shockingly bad for their harass not to be very effective), Zerg midgame > Terran midgame. It's just that you usually arrive there in a dodgy position because of the early game issues. Midgame blings/infestors/slings/mutas are very, very strong.
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On September 01 2010 09:34 xCyan1de wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 09:11 ioRa wrote:On September 01 2010 09:08 claricorp wrote:
generally the best answer to beating a turtling terran is getting broodlords. broodlords outrange pretty much all that terran ground can bring to bear, and with some focus fire on thors and using mutalisks and corrupters to mop up vikings your pretty much set. another great way to win is to simply get 200 banelings and right click far past there army, generally you will kill everything they have, the trick is of course getting 200 banelings. another good one to do is to use nydus worms and pump zerglings intot here base to kill as much as you can, making them starve is very important.
if they turtle you can take the map and generally win, the enemy army itself will roll over pretty much everything in a face to face fight except for ultralisk/hydra with possible infestor or broodlord mutalisk/corrupter with roaches and lings.
zvt is a very fun matchup, more often then not you will see terran playing aggressive bio builds than turtling mech. Broodlords < vikings 200 thousand banelings < some tanks Zergligns into base < wall You < a helpful post Anyways, I think that as zerg you arnt supposed to be able to easily beat a 200/200 T army with yours. Then zerg would be Op cause they can literally rebuild instantly. Youre supposed to weaken his army, rebuild and keep attacking until he has nothing left. Also, idra made a mistake of trying to attack him in chokes. Terran thrives in chokes and getting tanks in good position whereas zerg needs surrounds. The only way youre going to beat a good T is with good surround/harass. The one battle or 2 idra won in that game was because he surrounded his opponent.
Well, the problem is that once you reach ~150+ food, the entire map becomes a choke. It's not like youre fighting in the Arizona desert.
Brood lords + muta are the answer, I suppose, but the issue is that it is so easy for him to snipe (slow) brood lords with vikings and retreat to his thor.
Mutas can beat vikings head to head, but its hard when he has thor also since you have to maintain the antisplash box.
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I have been testing out a new build for ZvT (but its even more dominant against P), which i have found to be very effective. It's a variant to the 5 Roach Rush, which i'm calling the 8 Roach Rush.
Build Order:
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9 Overlord
14 Pool
14 Gas -> 3 Workers to Gas on completion
Drone to 16
Pool Completes: Queen(to 18 Supply, inject on spawn) then Roach Warren
18 Overlord x 2
Then Roach till 34
34 Overlord
Speedling Upgrade
Lings when you can
Transition depending on the outcome of the attack
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Now this is the simplest case when you receive no heavy harass from reapers or what not. Make a few lings early if you're getting harrassed. Using this build, you should have 8 roaches by 5:15 and at the opponents base at 6 mins roughly. Lings should come a bit later, after the attack has started. Most of the time the game gg's right there, but heavily defended terran bases may be impenetrable. At which point you transition out. I consider this build a semi All in. I reason why i like this build so much, is because it allows zerg to be on the offensive and whittles the terran ball down, in effect delaying the "big push" and hopefully never letting the T get to 200/200.
I'm currently playing at 600 - 700 diamond and i have quite a few replays of this working against a variety of strategies (including proxy reaper harass and marine rush) which i will provide on request. I will note that i don't consider myself a pro; just a noob with a strong build order. Feedback is welcome!
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It seems Terran players have switched from "Terran's aren't winning tournaments" into "If you aren't pro, the imbalance doesn't matter" argument.
In Brood War, 200/200 armies clashing at least depended on the composition and micro of the players, not the race, as is the case in Starcraft ll. Now you're expected to suicide your 200/200 army, and instantly create a new one to overrun. Well, now Terran players are learning they can make more than 4 Barracks or Factories after they take their third base.
As much as people want to claim "It's only noticeable in pro play", that's simply not true. The amount of options, builds, and units available to Terran are overall just more viable than Zerg. If you are playing Zerg against Terran, and the Terran player manages to hold his half of the map, it's gg. There's a point where the Terran player can simply spam Barracks/Factories that will out-produce even double hatches at every expo, and because his force is incredibly more efficient than yours, you will starve yourself out, and he'll 1A over to your main.
In the following months more and more players will discover this. Virtually everything about Terran will be nerfed, or Protoss and Zerg will be majorly buffed. I can almost guaranty it. Terran, as it stands, and probably because it is their expansion, are simply too good as of right now.
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I play zerg because I like the way its mechanics work, and it compliments my playstyle! You should do the same, the potential for an imbalance shouldn't effect your decision, yes playing T is hard.... but I'd rather enjoy the race I play as, and lose some than play an "imba autowin race" that I don't enjoy as much.
In the end, its a game, play it for fun, choose the race you enjoy
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It doesn't really matter in terms of balance. More so it's:
If you want to get good fast don't play zerg.
If you want to follow build orders don't play zerg.
If you want to control your matches don't play zerg.
If you get frustrated from losing don't play zerg zerg losses are way more frustrating than the other races.
If you don't have a good memory you probably should play zerg.
If you don't min- OMG PUSH THE BUTTON NOWNOWNOWNOWNOW -d spawning larva
if you don't mind losing by winning battles.
If you don't mind losing hard and fast because you guessed intention wrong.
If you make it past all the above and enjoy an expansionist style of play with heavy emphasis on flanking and positioning then zerg might be right for you.
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Zerg early game is super weak vs. Terran, but I find that by making the correct mix of Roach/Speedling/Baneling (you may need all 3 unit types to survive) I can usually take and keep a FE.
Then it enters the mid game at 2-base Z vs. 1-base T which is pretty balanced. With effective muta harass, I can usually make it 3-base vs. 1-base or 4-base vs. 2-base and then just outmacro and steamroll them.
However if you don't scout perfectly or make the correct counter units in the early game, you will lose outright. This is what can make ZvT so frustrating - that many games are over with the first Terran push.
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On September 01 2010 09:11 Moja wrote:
Btw there's no reason a 200/200 zerg army can't beat a 200/200 terran army. It all comes down to unit composition and control. Plus you should hit that 200/200 threshold first. And you'll be able to instantly rebuild your army after the battle.
You must play Terran... The only time 200/200 Terran army will loose to an equal PSI Zerg is if it's a Bio ball against ling/bling and thats a MAYBE. The only way top beat a Terran maxed is to macro better than him and keep pumping units and spawning larvae.
If I ever have a max army and I know he is maxed I will absolutely NEVER go head on with him. NEVER! Got to find another way and sometimes if he is mech then it's pretty much GG because I let him get his forces up.
On September 01 2010 11:54 Grimjim wrote:
It seems Terran players have switched from "Terran's aren't winning tournaments" into "If you aren't pro, the imbalance doesn't matter" argument.
Yeah, pretty sad because I notice the imbalance even more than a pro because a pro can micro/macro better than me and deal with mass siege pushes. Honestly I think high Plat to low/mid Diamond is where it's most imbalanced.
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On September 01 2010 09:38 Yaotzin wrote:Rofl what. It's embarassing how easily mutalisks kill vikings. In low numbers it's a slightly fair contest but with 10+ the bouncing glaves make it a bit sad.
+1. Vikings typically are great at sniping a few muta's right at the beginning but after that initial volley they are downright terrible vs muta.
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"Most people parrot what their respective races most skilled players say, not realizing or ignoring the fact that at their own levels, losses come from terrible play rather than said imbalance."
This is not true. Play any map with lots of chokes and you'll see how imba terran is vs zerg. The major downside to a mech army is lack of mobility, but you don't need mobility when you can just slow push to half the map, and take up half the resources on the map. Zerg is very resource-inefficient, and a maxed zerg army can't push against an entrenched maxed terran army at all. This devolves into a massive wait-it-out game where the terran has an unbelievable advantage. Brood lords don't work well when they have so many resources that they can pump out a swarm of vikings on whim. And don't gimme that "that means their ground force is weak" because you try massing a ground army strong enough to go up against a few tanks with thors at a choke WHILE having the money to go brood lord.
I know when I make dumb mistakes, but I played a match where it was solely because of the massive map turtling that I lost after over an hour, and that is very frustrating.
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lol ^^
hey protoss is imba cuz they win all the tournaments and are #1 and stuff and they have zelots that are op and its not fair x.x
ZVT is not imba. Thanks to Idra, he collected all the crying bitches together and actually changed something. Zerg will most likely be a dominate race after the patch - then it'll be back and forth balancing for a little while... maybe, they did nerf ultras hmmm...... anyway, SC2 sounds like beta. Mid-September is my gg, no re.
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Not playing zerg right now because you think they might be weaker then terran is kinda stupid. Maybe its even true (hard to say given that some zergs like idra do very very well), however with the upcoming patch in the next month that will weaken protoss and terran, we get a whole new ball game where who knows who is the most OP. So if zerg matches your style of play, do it! If they arnt balanced now, maybe they will be soon eather way have fun.
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On September 01 2010 09:01 Yaotzin wrote:
ZvT is somewhat broken at the pro level, but the lower down you go the less it matters. At mid diamond (<1k or so?) it's virtually irrelevant.
Why would it be irrelevant??? Imo its quite relevant, it might not be THAT pronounced, but its still in the game
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I'm in diamond and I also consider ZvT to be the easiest matchup for me. ZvZ is like war of the build orders and ZvP is standing on the razor edge of death while you try to fend off the warpgate timing push. 
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Of course ZvT is imbalanced. Idra doesn't just throw that out there while winning games cause he thinks its funny. Many top players agree, and while I'm not at that caliber, I assure you that it is imbalanced.
What the imbalances are, I'm not entirely sure. Some may have to do with reaper timing (which the patch will "fix"). Some may be due to maps (LT/Kulas cliff drop. Xel Naga/Metal naturals, Steppes rush distance etc). I think a lot of it has to do with viable options for zerg. Zerg just doesn't have a lot and it's all pretty ineffective.
It's hard to balance Zerg on the Ladder maps because they suck really really badly for zerg vs protoss, terran, or both. Blizz will have to standardize maps before they make balance calls but they aren't going to because they're stubborn and stupid.
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VS Terran it's hard, because the basics of Zerg play are just harder. You will die to tons of stuff because there is tons of stuff they can throw at you which directly kills you if you don't respond correctly.
VS Protoss it's hard, because the basics of Zerg play are just harder. You will die to miriads of timing attacks because you over or underdroned (and Voidrays  ).
Beginning Zerg = Dieing to stupid shit :p
After tons of losses you will get the *hang* of all these critical timings and fend most of them of whiteout much problems and the game begins.
After tons of games you will eventually get friggin good and Imbalance actually would come into play, but thats unlikely.
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So i was a decent level diamond T and P player and recently picked up z to play random, so I think I can have some good insight for all the matchups and how to learn zerg. Here is what I have learned the past few weeks.
Winning as zerg relies heavily on aspects other than DPS on DPS. This includes, overexpanding, map control, unit positioning, creep, nydus drops. All aspects which can't be read in a book, but learned through lots of play experience.
While hard, it is crucial to get into the mid game safely. So many T and P openings involve early aggression, even if its not game ending. Learning how to not overcomit to powering drones, or to units, can lead to more losses.
Having a good game sense to understand when to commit to an attack and when not to is game breaking. This is especially true V P and T bio balls. If you underestimate an attack and dont kill off the force, you have probably wasted another 20ish supply. Meaning the protoss will be left with no hull damage, the bio ball with red health. These bio balls and toss armies will recharge their intrinsic advantage of health/shields while you the zerg have just lost all the resources committed into units. The most simple example would be holding off zealot pressure with lings. If you under estimate how many lings you need in the first engagement, you wont be able to get that critical mass of lings latter for the slightly larger zealot force.
Keep studying and playing, and you'll pick up the right game sense for zerg. Glhf
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At my level of play (High platinum, I play anyone from high gold to low diamonds) I have found ZvT as the easiest matchup (probably win 80%). Almost every game results in a successful muta harrass followed by a ling/bling flood (generally muta sniping alone wins my games), the only ones ive lost were surprise bio drops in my base i wasnt ready for or one occasion where i got out-microd during a reaper harrass. I'm about 40% vs toss and 50% vs zerg (most games end up being 6-pool stupidity)
Until you get to high diamond or tournaments, I wouldn't worry about the imba and hey, no harm in trying a race out, the more you understand about a differnt race the more it will help your game when you play against that race.
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I am 700+pt in diamond and I win ZvT 9 of 10 times when opponent is not cheesing. But sometimes I get T opponent who just crush me so hard. I think lots of terran players at least <1000 does not know how to play correct to it's hard to say something about imba at lower levels.
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imabalance wont even affect you AT ALL till your super super high diamond like 800-1000 pt
its not relevant cuz you can still win by just playing better.
at pro level each player is playing near perfect so it actually does make a diff.
this is why patching is done based on the pro level play.
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On September 01 2010 18:24 charlie420247 wrote:
imabalance wont even affect you AT ALL till your super super high diamond like 800-1000 pt
Not true at all. If you could possibly counter imbalanced strategy at lower levels, that does not make imbalanced strategy balanced.
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On September 01 2010 18:24 charlie420247 wrote:
imabalance wont even affect you AT ALL till your super super high diamond like 800-1000 pt
its not relevant cuz you can still win by just playing better.
at pro level each player is playing near perfect so it actually does make a diff.
this is why patching is done based on the pro level play.
To a certain extent you are right, but if something is imbalanced its imbalanced at all levels of play. If a lower skill player recognizes the imba they can focus on that alone and exploit it to their best ability. If they are of equal skill as their opponent the imba will make them come out on top, obviously if the other player is better then the best player will win.
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if the imbalance is there, it's not like 50% it's more like 5%
P is a very easy race to play with
T is not so easy but has the best cost wise units/arsenal everything works
Z is hard to play you have to keep doing tumor queen injecting expanding and outmacro your opponent since cost-wise you lose to other races by far ...
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in my opinion Z is the most macro intensive with injects/tumors/need to expand to keep up and in some cases very micro intensive too (especially with blings/ling surrounds, infestor usage, etc..) but i go pure ling/muta alot (muta harrassing at my level of play often outright wins me games) so i have more time to focus on the macro and tend to outmacro most of my terran opponents with FEs and containing them in their 1-2 base(s) with mutas strong map control.
personally i love ZvT matchup
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Saying that unless ur a pro imbalance doesnt matter is the single stupidest thing i have ever heard.
I paid $70 for this game, im not a pro but i do EXPECT that i can play the race i prefer against people of equal skill and still stand a chance.
Im in diamond, and i do win more than i lose, it drives me crazy to see terrans with 60 apm spamming random units while i need AT LEAST 100 apm, perfect scouting, perfect timing on expands, perfect map position (flanks) and the ability to decide when to build drones vs an opponent whos walled in and can deny almost all scouting attempts. All the while the drooling knuckle dragger sits in his base going "derp derp im making (insert whatever opening/harass he decides to abuse)".
Skill differentials that large are a sign of imbalance.
Quit pretending like ur good when u 1a ur mech and win.
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Unless youre in the top 200 in the world or so, I doubt it will affect you much.
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On September 03 2010 18:27 Grend wrote:
Unless youre in the top 200 in the world or so, I doubt it will affect you much.
and we should abuse mobility right?
Zergs just refuse to use nydus?
We are not creative enough?
The amount of semi retarded justification from terrans is just appalling.
Quit patting urself on the back, ur not good. (that goes for 90% of terrans.)
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With regard to the tangent: "Day9 and others have said they do not believe in imbalance, there is always a strat an opponent can do to win"
well....no.
The two concepts are completely unrelated. Imbalance does NOT mean that the matchup is un-winable, of course there's always a way to win. Imbalance is when the matchup is much easier and or more forgiving to one race over the other.
The reason TvZ is imbalanced is largely because of a skill-gap between the effective play of terran vs the effective play of zerg.
mid diamond level strategies with terran involve 60-70 apm, and to defend against them you need well over 100 apm. The skill difference is staggering. No one ever said the Z couldn't win, only that they have to work way harder to do it.
Therefore, the matchup can be considered imbalanced. How much energy does it take to queue up some way-points and medivacs full of bio, drop them at three expansions and attack the front with a main army? hardly any. About 40 apm.
Now, as a zerg, how much energy does it take to defend against that strategy? You probably won't no matter how good you are. Unless you saw the drops coming a mile away, you're unlikely to get away from that scenario without losing an expansion, even if you're Idra.
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No that makes Terran a cheesy race, not an imbalanced one.
Imbalance and cheese* are very different things
*Cheese, a tactic requiring considerably more skill to defend than execute. See: Korean 4gate, 6pool, Terran race.
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Personally, I don't see an imbalance in the ZvT. In fact, ZvT is by far my strongest matchup, due to playing a lot of terrans, and trying really hard to learn ZvT (due to said balance complaints). Maybe if get my other MUs better and can ascend the ladder a bit (currently low diamond) I'd notice some serious advantages. I say go for it.
note Vikings KILLLLLL mutalisks.
Wrong. So, so wrong. I haven't lost to a terran that went vikings to counter mutas in a lonnnnnnng time. Possibly ever. For similar cost, in Vikings vs Mutas, Vikings do less damage, are far slower, cannot attack ground without risk (if you land vikings, and mutas arrive, the vikings all die).
In summary, definitely play zerg.
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On September 03 2010 18:30 Fodder03 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 18:27 Grend wrote:
Unless youre in the top 200 in the world or so, I doubt it will affect you much. and we should abuse mobility right? Zergs just refuse to use nydus? We are not creative enough? The amount of semi retarded justification from terrans is just appalling. Quit patting urself on the back, ur not good. (that goes for 90% of terrans.)
I play Zerg exclusively though
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EPT
