hey protoss is imba cuz they win all the tournaments and are #1 and stuff and they have zelots that are op and its not fair x.x
ZVT is not imba. Thanks to Idra, he collected all the crying bitches together and actually changed something. Zerg will most likely be a dominate race after the patch - then it'll be back and forth balancing for a little while... maybe, they did nerf ultras hmmm...... anyway, SC2 sounds like beta. Mid-September is my gg, no re.
Not playing zerg right now because you think they might be weaker then terran is kinda stupid. Maybe its even true (hard to say given that some zergs like idra do very very well), however with the upcoming patch in the next month that will weaken protoss and terran, we get a whole new ball game where who knows who is the most OP. So if zerg matches your style of play, do it! If they arnt balanced now, maybe they will be soon eather way have fun.
On September 01 2010 09:01 Yaotzin wrote: ZvT is somewhat broken at the pro level, but the lower down you go the less it matters. At mid diamond (<1k or so?) it's virtually irrelevant.
Why would it be irrelevant??? Imo its quite relevant, it might not be THAT pronounced, but its still in the game
I'm in diamond and I also consider ZvT to be the easiest matchup for me. ZvZ is like war of the build orders and ZvP is standing on the razor edge of death while you try to fend off the warpgate timing push.
Of course ZvT is imbalanced. Idra doesn't just throw that out there while winning games cause he thinks its funny. Many top players agree, and while I'm not at that caliber, I assure you that it is imbalanced.
What the imbalances are, I'm not entirely sure. Some may have to do with reaper timing (which the patch will "fix"). Some may be due to maps (LT/Kulas cliff drop. Xel Naga/Metal naturals, Steppes rush distance etc). I think a lot of it has to do with viable options for zerg. Zerg just doesn't have a lot and it's all pretty ineffective.
It's hard to balance Zerg on the Ladder maps because they suck really really badly for zerg vs protoss, terran, or both. Blizz will have to standardize maps before they make balance calls but they aren't going to because they're stubborn and stupid.
VS Terran it's hard, because the basics of Zerg play are just harder. You will die to tons of stuff because there is tons of stuff they can throw at you which directly kills you if you don't respond correctly.
VS Protoss it's hard, because the basics of Zerg play are just harder. You will die to miriads of timing attacks because you over or underdroned (and Voidrays ).
Beginning Zerg = Dieing to stupid shit :p
After tons of losses you will get the *hang* of all these critical timings and fend most of them of whiteout much problems and the game begins. After tons of games you will eventually get friggin good and Imbalance actually would come into play, but thats unlikely.
So i was a decent level diamond T and P player and recently picked up z to play random, so I think I can have some good insight for all the matchups and how to learn zerg. Here is what I have learned the past few weeks.
Winning as zerg relies heavily on aspects other than DPS on DPS. This includes, overexpanding, map control, unit positioning, creep, nydus drops. All aspects which can't be read in a book, but learned through lots of play experience.
While hard, it is crucial to get into the mid game safely. So many T and P openings involve early aggression, even if its not game ending. Learning how to not overcomit to powering drones, or to units, can lead to more losses.
Having a good game sense to understand when to commit to an attack and when not to is game breaking. This is especially true V P and T bio balls. If you underestimate an attack and dont kill off the force, you have probably wasted another 20ish supply. Meaning the protoss will be left with no hull damage, the bio ball with red health. These bio balls and toss armies will recharge their intrinsic advantage of health/shields while you the zerg have just lost all the resources committed into units. The most simple example would be holding off zealot pressure with lings. If you under estimate how many lings you need in the first engagement, you wont be able to get that critical mass of lings latter for the slightly larger zealot force.
Keep studying and playing, and you'll pick up the right game sense for zerg. Glhf
At my level of play (High platinum, I play anyone from high gold to low diamonds) I have found ZvT as the easiest matchup (probably win 80%). Almost every game results in a successful muta harrass followed by a ling/bling flood (generally muta sniping alone wins my games), the only ones ive lost were surprise bio drops in my base i wasnt ready for or one occasion where i got out-microd during a reaper harrass. I'm about 40% vs toss and 50% vs zerg (most games end up being 6-pool stupidity)
Until you get to high diamond or tournaments, I wouldn't worry about the imba and hey, no harm in trying a race out, the more you understand about a differnt race the more it will help your game when you play against that race.
I am 700+pt in diamond and I win ZvT 9 of 10 times when opponent is not cheesing. But sometimes I get T opponent who just crush me so hard. I think lots of terran players at least <1000 does not know how to play correct to it's hard to say something about imba at lower levels.
On September 01 2010 18:24 charlie420247 wrote: imabalance wont even affect you AT ALL till your super super high diamond like 800-1000 pt
its not relevant cuz you can still win by just playing better.
at pro level each player is playing near perfect so it actually does make a diff.
this is why patching is done based on the pro level play.
To a certain extent you are right, but if something is imbalanced its imbalanced at all levels of play. If a lower skill player recognizes the imba they can focus on that alone and exploit it to their best ability. If they are of equal skill as their opponent the imba will make them come out on top, obviously if the other player is better then the best player will win.
if the imbalance is there, it's not like 50% it's more like 5% P is a very easy race to play with T is not so easy but has the best cost wise units/arsenal everything works Z is hard to play you have to keep doing tumor queen injecting expanding and outmacro your opponent since cost-wise you lose to other races by far ...
in my opinion Z is the most macro intensive with injects/tumors/need to expand to keep up and in some cases very micro intensive too (especially with blings/ling surrounds, infestor usage, etc..) but i go pure ling/muta alot (muta harrassing at my level of play often outright wins me games) so i have more time to focus on the macro and tend to outmacro most of my terran opponents with FEs and containing them in their 1-2 base(s) with mutas strong map control.
Saying that unless ur a pro imbalance doesnt matter is the single stupidest thing i have ever heard. I paid $70 for this game, im not a pro but i do EXPECT that i can play the race i prefer against people of equal skill and still stand a chance.
Im in diamond, and i do win more than i lose, it drives me crazy to see terrans with 60 apm spamming random units while i need AT LEAST 100 apm, perfect scouting, perfect timing on expands, perfect map position (flanks) and the ability to decide when to build drones vs an opponent whos walled in and can deny almost all scouting attempts. All the while the drooling knuckle dragger sits in his base going "derp derp im making (insert whatever opening/harass he decides to abuse)".
Skill differentials that large are a sign of imbalance. Quit pretending like ur good when u 1a ur mech and win.
On September 03 2010 18:27 Grend wrote: Unless youre in the top 200 in the world or so, I doubt it will affect you much.
and we should abuse mobility right? Zergs just refuse to use nydus? We are not creative enough?
The amount of semi retarded justification from terrans is just appalling. Quit patting urself on the back, ur not good. (that goes for 90% of terrans.)
With regard to the tangent: "Day9 and others have said they do not believe in imbalance, there is always a strat an opponent can do to win"
well....no.
The two concepts are completely unrelated. Imbalance does NOT mean that the matchup is un-winable, of course there's always a way to win. Imbalance is when the matchup is much easier and or more forgiving to one race over the other.
The reason TvZ is imbalanced is largely because of a skill-gap between the effective play of terran vs the effective play of zerg.
mid diamond level strategies with terran involve 60-70 apm, and to defend against them you need well over 100 apm. The skill difference is staggering. No one ever said the Z couldn't win, only that they have to work way harder to do it.
Therefore, the matchup can be considered imbalanced. How much energy does it take to queue up some way-points and medivacs full of bio, drop them at three expansions and attack the front with a main army? hardly any. About 40 apm.
Now, as a zerg, how much energy does it take to defend against that strategy? You probably won't no matter how good you are. Unless you saw the drops coming a mile away, you're unlikely to get away from that scenario without losing an expansion, even if you're Idra.
Personally, I don't see an imbalance in the ZvT. In fact, ZvT is by far my strongest matchup, due to playing a lot of terrans, and trying really hard to learn ZvT (due to said balance complaints). Maybe if get my other MUs better and can ascend the ladder a bit (currently low diamond) I'd notice some serious advantages. I say go for it.
note
Vikings KILLLLLL mutalisks.
Wrong. So, so wrong. I haven't lost to a terran that went vikings to counter mutas in a lonnnnnnng time. Possibly ever. For similar cost, in Vikings vs Mutas, Vikings do less damage, are far slower, cannot attack ground without risk (if you land vikings, and mutas arrive, the vikings all die).
EPT
).
