EPTZvT Mutalisk "Magic Box" via PsyStarcraft
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Iggyhopper
United States259 Posts
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DeltruS
Canada2214 Posts
Here's the thread; a great first post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145719 | ||
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Looky
United States1608 Posts
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R0YAL
United States1768 Posts
On August 21 2010 05:44 Looky wrote: am i the only one who knew this a long time ago haha. i didnt think anything of it tho. just fly over them and push attack to an empty space. you dont have to push "stop" nope iv been saying it since the beta... pretty much common sense | ||
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CheeseGrater
United States290 Posts
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On August 21 2010 05:44 Looky wrote: am i the only one who knew this a long time ago haha. i didnt think anything of it tho. just fly over them and push attack to an empty space. you dont have to push "stop" I haven't heard anyone specifically talk about it with regard to muta/thor but I think it's pretty widely known that units keep formation when you tell them to move somewhere, so clearly it's the best way to engage thors. if you watch replays of someone like Zenio this is exactly how he does it | ||
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CheezDip
126 Posts
On August 21 2010 05:45 R0YAL wrote: nope iv been saying it since the beta... pretty much common sense Yea I thought it was well known too and I was using it in the beta, but nobody on the boards really wanted to listen when I and others said mutas were really not hard-countered by thors at all if you just move without bunching. | ||
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AskJoshy
United States1625 Posts
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Sgany
United Kingdom790 Posts
On August 21 2010 05:46 CheeseGrater wrote: Yeah way to completely rip the OP of the original thread off without crediting him at all.... The video mentions that thread and has a link to it........ | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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cyprin
United States1105 Posts
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FromGorkyWithLove
Latvia71 Posts
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CheeseGrater
United States290 Posts
On August 21 2010 06:43 Sgany wrote: The video mentions that thread and has a link to it........ He edited that in after  | ||
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Tabbris
Bangladesh2839 Posts
On August 21 2010 06:57 FromGorkyWithLove wrote: what program/map do they use to create this? or they make a special map like this with muta/thor?? The map editor maybe? | ||
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koOma
Norway462 Posts
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CheeseGrater
United States290 Posts
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On August 21 2010 06:56 cyprin wrote: 2400/2400 of mutas beat 1200/800 of thors? The unit retention is what we are focusing on. 20 with spread and stop versus 8 with attack move. | ||
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Galleon.frigate
Canada721 Posts
yet no one has posted a replay where this made a different at high level? I know I've been looking... I'm very excited to see somethign happen, but ... wtf.. still waiting | ||
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Craton
United States17252 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 21 2010 07:12 Galleon.frigate wrote: so I've known of this for weeks, not that I'm special, read it here weeks ago. yet no one has posted a replay where this made a different at high level? I know I've been looking... I'm very excited to see somethign happen, but ... wtf.. still waiting Check has made use of spreading mutas for a long time now. | ||
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Tropics
United Kingdom1132 Posts
:/ | ||
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On August 21 2010 06:56 cyprin wrote: 2400/2400 of mutas beat 1200/800 of thors? it's a reasonable scenario. most terrans will make only 3 or so thor to deal with the prospect of muta | ||
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Kryptonite
United States155 Posts
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groms
Canada1017 Posts
On August 21 2010 07:12 Galleon.frigate wrote: so I've known of this for weeks, not that I'm special, read it here weeks ago. yet no one has posted a replay where this made a different at high level? I know I've been looking... I'm very excited to see somethign happen, but ... wtf.. still waiting Idra actually used it in his matches against sarens. It worked OK but unfortunately sarens ended up winning that match. You can watch the series on ESL.tv it was the quarter finals of the IEM gamescom tournament. | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
In my experience, against thors this works well, but if they also have marines attacking you, then it's counter-productive to keep mutas unclumped since marines will just rip through them. Mutas are still for picking off stray units and buildings, there's no way they can ever engage in actual combat. | ||
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Tazza
Korea (South)1678 Posts
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Scottymc
Australia134 Posts
so normal you would have 24 x 9(i think thats what muta does) unupgraded thor armor is 1 so its 24x8 = 192 per hit (not counting bounces). With the corrupter its 23x9 which is 207 x 1.2(20% extra damage) = 220.8 per attack. thats a bonus of 28.8. + the first bounce if your next target has corrupt on it it scales very well. And the big bonus If you lead with the corrupter has an armor of 2 if it takes the first volley of attacks it really helps remove the damage off your mutalisks. and no bonus damage. so instead of one of your mutas taking the rediculous 150 damage volley that 4 thors can dish out (what is it 4 x 12 each?) The first volley only does about (4 - 2 x 6) x 4 = 48 to the corrupter and the mutas can go to town on the thors. | ||
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Floydian
United Kingdom374 Posts
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On August 21 2010 08:49 Scottymc wrote: I would also like to test this with 1 corrupter for the +20% damage. I think you would be surprised how hammered those thors get. its basically +2 damage for each of the mutalisks. for the price 150/100. so normal you would have 24 x 9(i think thats what muta does) unupgraded thor armor is 1 so its 24x8 = 192 per hit (not counting bounces). With the corrupter its 23x9 which is 207 x 1.2(20% extra damage) = 220.8 per attack. thats a bonus of 28.8. + the first bounce if your next target has corrupt on it it scales very well. And the big bonus If you lead with the corrupter has an armor of 2 if it takes the first volley of attacks it really helps remove the damage off your mutalisks. and no bonus damage. so instead of one of your mutas taking the rediculous 150 damage volley that 4 thors can dish out (what is it 4 x 12 each?) The first volley only does about (4 - 2 x 6) x 4 = 48 to the corrupter and the mutas can go to town on the thors. You'd have to have the corruptor in a separate group since it moves slower than the muta and will fall out of the box causing them to clump up again. Feels like a lot of extra micro to add yet another control group simply for 1-2 corruptors when u can achieve the same effect by just building 20% more mutas. | ||
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ducis
Canada96 Posts
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On August 21 2010 08:59 ducis wrote: loosely packed mutas get pwned my vikings-----hard, especially when the viks are stacked This is wrong. | ||
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ducis
Canada96 Posts
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aka_star
United Kingdom1546 Posts
if people searched for it they would find numerous posts about mutas beating thors, its been around for ages and common knowledge on diamond since beta. There is also a mechnaic to make the thors AI switch target leaving a muta alive with red life keeping zergs DPS high, you have to dance the mutas directly over the thor and press H and if the turning angle is high then the thor will not spin and shot the next closet muta. its pretty old knowledge by today's standards... Oh your might want to test the same thing with a couple of marines or a turret near by it really buffs the damage done by Terran and makes this play kinda hard. | ||
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BadBinky
Finland649 Posts
Nah. Any sane person would spread their mutas when they are forced to attack thors. Do you think top players stacked their mutas against thors and then went out calling imba? | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On August 21 2010 11:08 BadBinky wrote: Nah. Any sane person would spread their mutas when they are forced to attack thors. Do you think top players stacked their mutas against thors and then went out calling imba? Yes | ||
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Arbalest
Canada25 Posts
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FarbrorAbavna
Sweden4856 Posts
On August 21 2010 07:22 TheYango wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjqXw4zxaPE&feature=related Check has made use of spreading mutas for a long time now. He's not using spread out mutas at all like the op is showing. Check is just taking his big group of mutas and dividing it into three smaller groups. They also stack up as they go in for the attack on the thor/s hence it is nothing at all like OP is showing(where only one muta is taking dmg from one thor). Was a great replay though. On topic: this is great and will be really helpful. Did not know that the natural dispersing of mutas could make such a difference. ty! | ||
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jtgizmo
Congo161 Posts
On August 21 2010 05:45 R0YAL wrote: nope iv been saying it since the beta... pretty much common sense i loove when ppl say something like this....yet they r usually who whinge the most, instead of being cocky dip*** how about praising this idea or be constructve. And if you knew about this and still sucked vs terran thors with ur mutas - well then it aint zerg who is broken... | ||
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CrudeClown
Germany8 Posts
On August 21 2010 07:22 TheYango wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjqXw4zxaPE&feature=related Check has made use of spreading mutas for a long time now. This thread seems kind of pointless. As Psy mentioned the original thread in his video. And it is already posted in this thread by someone else. Just posting because of all this "I've known it for month, lubdidubdidoooo, and the pros did too!" That check video is not using it. I just watched it. All he does is some muta micro. But no spreading against thors at all. Part two very beginning: Scared of ONE thor with having 12 mutas (at the terrans expansion). Part two at about 3:40: Thor-Party. Part two 5 minute mark: nothing new Pat two at 7:40: yeah he spreads. But not in the way which was brought to our attention byfreezeframe All those people who "have known since beta": good for you! But a lot of people havent, and NONE of the us or european pros have utilized this method yet. So its great people are making BIG posts about it. Unlike you did. "...was mentioned in many threads already..." Still, seems like a lot of people didnt know it. Its a big help, might as well make a big post out of it. Which freezeframe did. Thank you for that (from a P player, in case anyone wants to knwo  )! | ||
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Radio.active
United States121 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + in all seriousness, this could potentially bring new zerg players into the scene considering there is so few of them | ||
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3nickma
Denmark1510 Posts
The wording of the Magic Box made me immediately interested in this thread as I recalled something similar in the BW section. Though it might not be fully original or the first it sparked my interest. That's what it's all about. Can't wait to get back to my PC so I can see this video and hopefully replicate it in my own games | ||
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pechkin
158 Posts
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Ouga
Finland645 Posts
On August 21 2010 11:08 BadBinky wrote: "Will change metagame" Nah. Any sane person would spread their mutas when they are forced to attack thors. Do you think top players stacked their mutas against thors and then went out calling imba? I don't think most decent players had knowledge about this, because there's not been clear understanding of thor's aoe range. I mean even while spreaded they still seem quite ...stacked. But since aoe is small enough, it doesn't matter. I never thought this spread was enough to keep safe from thor aoe, so I've pretty much totally skipped making mutas in zvt for months. So yes, this may affect mutas becoming more used in ~high diamond even. The very top pros probably knew about this tho, so this may not make Idra or Dimaga more succesful. | ||
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Psiclone
United States23 Posts
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
 still nice to bring this up again, many people have forgotten about it or didnt play the beta | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
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Bosu
United States3247 Posts
On August 21 2010 17:49 Psiclone wrote: Don't see how this will change the imbalance much since marines are great mineral dump units to take down mutas. Terran will just mix a few more in there. Forcing terran to think, micro, and mix in more units they would rather not are all things that could help a lot. | ||
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Arbalest
Canada25 Posts
On August 21 2010 17:49 Psiclone wrote: Don't see how this will change the imbalance much since marines are great mineral dump units to take down mutas. Terran will just mix a few more in there. If you are going against Terran Mech why would they have more than one barracks? And even if they invest in marines then banelings can come into play and now the matchup is much more dynamic. | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
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BlindPhaydo
United States33 Posts
On August 21 2010 16:44 FarbrorAbavna wrote: He's not using spread out mutas at all like the op is showing. Check is just taking his big group of mutas and dividing it into three smaller groups. They also stack up as they go in for the attack on the thor/s hence it is nothing at all like OP is showing(where only one muta is taking dmg from one thor). Was a great replay though. On topic: this is great and will be really helpful. Did not know that the natural dispersing of mutas could make such a difference. ty! True, Check was using a totally different method in which he engages in a clump then manually spreads the mutas apart to minimize splash. I wonder if he finds this method superior to the one mentioned in the OP because his mutas can focus a target and engage right away without having to fly over the enemy units first, and he can avoid a lot of the splash, though certainly not all of it. The method of the OP requires much less micro, however, so I personally plan to start using it. Thanks OP! | ||
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village_idiot
2436 Posts
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Qzy
Denmark1121 Posts
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cheeseninja
Canada35 Posts
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AyJay
1515 Posts
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BlindDruid
Germany653 Posts
And I didn`t know something about the magic box. | ||
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ammezing
Sweden11 Posts
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AyJay
1515 Posts
In Sc2 it's all about Muta spreading | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
On August 21 2010 06:56 cyprin wrote: 2400/2400 of mutas beat 1200/800 of thors? Wow, way to miss the point COMPLETELY. Seriously. | ||
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nukkuj
Finland403 Posts
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
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Snuggles
United States1865 Posts
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Ghad
Norway2551 Posts
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Erucious
Norway393 Posts
On August 21 2010 07:12 Galleon.frigate wrote: so I've known of this for weeks, not that I'm special, read it here weeks ago. yet no one has posted a replay where this made a different at high level? I know I've been looking... I'm very excited to see somethign happen, but ... wtf.. still waiting Watch this IEM game + Show Spoiler + idra vs tarson game 3 semi finals | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
On August 22 2010 02:10 Snuggles wrote: So many butthurt Terran players now. I can't wait to tryout this magic box stuff against them. Terran Tears, hahaha you bastards can eat it. Butthurt? Post evidence. More like we finally can't be rid of the endless river of tears the strategy/general SC2 forums have been since release. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10675 Posts
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On August 22 2010 02:11 Erucious wrote: Watch this IEM game + Show Spoiler + idra vs tarson game 3 semi finals Where can I see those? | ||
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CaptnIgnit
United States192 Posts
they aren't up yet, keep an eye on the IEM Gamescom threads. | ||
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Marradron
Netherlands1586 Posts
Nice way of stealing a movie out of a thread without a reference and posting a woot topic in the general section. Well played sir. | ||
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
DO NOT STACK! | ||
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DoomSpirit
France46 Posts
On August 22 2010 02:10 Ghad wrote: Everyone and his cat was using this routinely before in any match, and still Day[9] and d'Apollo was completely surprised when Idra used it to great effect against Tarson. Hmm. So true. And thx for the post, didn't know about this either. And seeing Idra using it is even more interesting because we will see how terran react now. Just hope it won't be a stupid mass tower thing while pushing their way out. | ||
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Stoli
Canada173 Posts
and it's still very expensive to deal with hellion or reaper agression (and impossible to fe against a bunker imo) | ||
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blackodd
Sweden451 Posts
![[image loading]](http://pici.se/pictures/oDtoWyxLA.jpg) | ||
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Kfish
Chile282 Posts
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Ghad
Norway2551 Posts
On August 22 2010 02:20 Stoli wrote: i really doubt this will change the zvt metagame much.. i'm barely more cost-effective thor vs muta than I was before, it just takes much less effort.. no real change to the way i start, and i still need a large ling bling army to kill marines that come with the thors, still can't harass against turret + thor range.. Very true. It is still another tool in the box for Zerg, and it will perhaps hurt the tank count of T a bit. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On August 22 2010 02:26 Kfish wrote: Haha awsome pic, but anyways.... I have been watching alot of ZvT from asia lately and they mostly go bio/mech and pure muta does not work against it apparently. Games turn out to be baneling/ling/muta vs heavy marine thor with some tanks. ofc pure muta doesnt cut it. the thing is that thors heavily cutdown tank numbers and that bio easily gets raped by ling/baneling(/infestor) without heavy tanks support. i really doubt this will change the zvt metagame much.. i'm barely more cost-effective thor vs muta than I was before, it just takes much less effort.. no real change to the way i start, and i still need a large ling bling army to kill marines that come with the thors, still can't harass against turret + thor ran with proper muta harrass you can contain the T for ages. was already strong but people always cried how 3 thors > 9235 mutas and how they are useless once he pushes out. this shows people that this isnt true at all. | ||
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bara
Germany150 Posts
On August 22 2010 02:21 ayadew wrote: Make it "scheisse" instead of "scheissen" but anyway nice idea | ||
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HowardRoark
1146 Posts
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Melt
Switzerland281 Posts
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Tabbris
Bangladesh2839 Posts
On August 22 2010 03:03 Melt wrote: i find it somehow funny that mutalisk stacking in bw really enhanced their usage and now, in SC2, it's mutalisk spreading that lets the matchup evolve U still want to try and stack them in other situations like vs marines and shit. But the problem is muta u cant rly muta micro like in BW | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
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blackodd
Sweden451 Posts
On August 22 2010 02:31 bara wrote: Make it "scheisse" instead of "scheissen" but anyway nice idea sry looked at german swearwords list.. I know 0 german :p On August 22 2010 03:03 Melt wrote: i find it somehow funny that mutalisk stacking in bw really enhanced their usage and now, in SC2, it's mutalisk spreading that lets the matchup evolve Yes.. too bad the sc2 version can be done in your sleep while mutalisk stacking was an art | ||
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PuppyFur
United States6 Posts
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moopie
12605 Posts
Also: 24 mutas vs 4 thors (2400/2400/48) vs (1200/800/24) Which is hardly an even army composition, half food, and less than half the resources. Finally, the thors can kite away slowly, as was done in BW w/ goliaths, which will lead to the mutas either having to be re-positioned constantly, or clumping up behind them. | ||
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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buKe
Canada168 Posts
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Tritonus
Denmark125 Posts
On August 21 2010 05:48 CheezDip wrote: Yea I thought it was well known too and I was using it in the beta, but nobody on the boards really wanted to listen when I and others said mutas were really not hard-countered by thors at all if you just move without bunching. The difference is that IdrA did this in the IEM yesterday, so now people will listen :D | ||
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buKe
Canada168 Posts
On August 22 2010 09:32 moopie wrote: First off this has already posted. Also: 24 mutas vs 4 thors (2400/2400/48) vs (1200/800/24) Which is hardly an even army composition, half food, and less than half the resources. Finally, the thors can kite away slowly, as was done in BW w/ goliaths, which will lead to the mutas either having to be re-positioned constantly, or clumping up behind them. LOL and leave all ur tanks to die? it doesnt work like that. and only 4 mutas will die out of that 24. im not saying its imba but thors arent imba at all anymore. zvt is going to evolve like crazy in a few days. pure mech will not work | ||
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archon256
United States363 Posts
On August 22 2010 09:43 buKe wrote: pure mech will always lose now. thor/siege tank willl get RAPED by muta/x it just happened to me omg. need biomech now siege/marine/marauder/hellion Just theory-crafting here, but since Turrets are still very strong for their price, couldn't you defend your base with Turrets while pushing out with a soft pure mech push building Turrets as you go? But then you'd also have to scout to avoid the inevitable Roach switch, which means less energy for MULEs, which means less minerals for Turrets. Hmm. | ||
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Backpack
United States1776 Posts
On August 22 2010 09:32 moopie wrote: First off this has already posted. Also: 24 mutas vs 4 thors (2400/2400/48) vs (1200/800/24) Which is hardly an even army composition, half food, and less than half the resources. Finally, the thors can kite away slowly, as was done in BW w/ goliaths, which will lead to the mutas either having to be re-positioned constantly, or clumping up behind them. You forgot the part where they are spending most of their resources on tanks which you can pick off if the thors. If they have a lot more thors than you just make more lings/hydras or w/e. | ||
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Subztance
United States139 Posts
On August 22 2010 09:35 Kare wrote: I have known that mutas rape thors for months It's important to note that mutas do NOT rape thors. Nobody should be thinking "oh my god my opponent has thors, time to counter with mutalisks!" the key is that mutalisks do not GET raped by thors, so if your opponent gets thors to counter YOUR mutalisks you can deal with them by keeping the thor numbers low while gradually increasing the number of mutalisks that you have and/or switching to roaches/banelings depending on the rest of their composition. you still do need more resources spent on mutalisks than your opponent has spent on thors. | ||
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Ghad
Norway2551 Posts
On August 22 2010 09:46 archon256 wrote: Just theory-crafting here, but since Turrets are still very strong for their price, couldn't you defend your base with Turrets while pushing out with a soft pure mech push building Turrets as you go? That is a bit silly. You would need to make a chain with like 20 turrets across the map to have any effect at all, or? On August 22 2010 03:09 Sfydjklm wrote: i find this to not be ideal, i prefer to split mutas in 2 and form a crescent while sending the muta that is taking hits over to the empty side of the imaginary circle. It actually is much more effective because thors waste time turnign back and forth The APM cost seems a lot higher but certainly sounds plausible. | ||
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
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Smurfz
United States327 Posts
[edit] oh, apparently cuz idra did it so it's an official tactic now lul | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
I don't get how this is news to so many people, and why everyone is spasming over it now. Because it is news. Keeping in strict formation via the "magic box" is different from attacking with mutas and then trying to spread them out. For a while now, everyone's been bitching about how devastating two builds are to zerg: Marauder/Hellion/Thor and Pure mech In BOTH of those builds, Thor is the anti-air. And what everyone complained about, was that it was too damn good at it. Until Zerg got broodlords, the feeling was, Thors could wreck anything they came up with. Well...turns out thats not true. Mutas can take Thors, if used properly. That changes things dramatically. Suddenly, both of the builds above need to throw in marines and/or turrets and/or many more thors than they originally planned on to deal with mutas. Which is doable, sure. But that means less money for the siege tanks or for marauders and hellions. Which means that Zerg have a much better chance of actually doing some damage on the ground in a straight up fight. Really, it changes the matchup a lot, and if you don't understand why, or if you think people have been doing this since beta, you're simply mistaken. | ||
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Okiesmokie
Canada379 Posts
On August 22 2010 02:45 HowardRoark wrote: I do not understand, is it a real BW magic box, do you have to select the units by moving the mouse from one corner of the box to the other, or can I just double click one muta to select all and it will work the same? How you select the units has nothing to do with the magic box. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Magic_Box | ||
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monterto
Canada103 Posts
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
its a bummer, us zerg players finally get this matchup so its balenced then comes along some jetpack dual pistol wielding homies who wanna ruin our fun. | ||
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BadMrFrosty
United States2 Posts
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TheFinalWord
Australia790 Posts
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