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+ Show Spoiler +On August 14 2010 04:56 micronesia wrote:I'm posting this for a friend who doesn't normally use TL but thinks it will be helpful. He said he'd use his new account to discuss/answer questions.
Hi guys, This is my first post and probably only post, so I'll try to make it count. I'm about to quit sc2 due to foreseeing a very busy schedule in the next few months. But I'd like to share my basic zvt strategy since a lot of zergs are having trouble with the ZvT matchup. I'm about a 600 level diamond zerg, and ZvT is my best matchup by far, and I win most of my ZvT games against opponents anywhere from the 400s to the 800s in diamond. (If they get above 800, then they become beyond my skill level and it's just I'm too noob to do anything to win). My ZvP and ZvZ, however, aren't that good and that's keeping me back. My basic strategy is early game to defend until I get mutalisks. Speedling with first 100 gas, then start teching to muta. After I get muta I start upgrading muta non-stop and commit fully to muta. I find that that's actually enough to win me a lot of my ZvT games. Go in his base and harrass with your muta, and try to pick off lone thors obviously. Meanwhile take a couple extra expos while ur opponent is holed up in his base (the key is start mining gas first!). Eventually, when he pushes out with like 4 thors, you should have 4 bases mining and at least 20-ish muta. That should be able to take care of his army. I like to mix ling/baneling in there for any bio units that come along with the thors. If he moves out with anything less than 5 thors, you should be able to just roll over him with your 20 something muta. I had a game where b/c of that early harrass, by the time a 6-thor (plus tank and hellions) push came out I had 23 muta upgraded 1-1, and completely destroyed his push while having 10 muta left over. And we all know that zergs can pump out a lot more muta much faster than terrans can pump out thors if you've kept him to 2 base. One extra benefit is that mass mutas really do pretty well against any variation the terran can throw at you midgame, like mass vikings or mass banshees that I see frequently in ladder games at this level. I do dislike roach/hydra/speedling builds, because those depend so much on timing and you're at the mercy of your opponent in terms of when he wants to push and where the attack happens. With mass muta, you have control most of the game and can actually abuse the mobility that zergs are known for. Obviously as I'm only a 600 level zerg I'm not that good a player, but as I'm winning a big majority of my games against equally skilled or slightly better terrans I feel I should should share this with other zergs having problems with the matchup. Even the games I lose, I feel that it's because I screwed up somewhere or the opponent had a really nice play rather than a problem with the build or any race imbalance issues. Hopefully the better zergs can actually improve upon this build and do some serious damage with it. Let me know if you do :p Here are a couple replays that demonstrate this relatively well. I have a bunch more reps but I'm not gonna upload them all. http://www.mediafire.com/?ojol3ugk3rppcothttp://www.mediafire.com/?oez839id4txvc28edit: more replays: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?5xlt4qti0h17dmo
I support this. I am only a 450 point diamond noob, but I mass mutas against terran always when I play zerg. I used to do it because that's how bw builds were. Then I did it because it became the easiest thing to do and still got wins. Now I still use mutas because you can out number thors too quickly early on. Vikings do nothing against mutas, a good option can be mass marines with tanks like we already see. Marines are good against generally anything but roach/hydra and that's why you use tanks - but with 4-5 mutas picking them off so easily, you die very quick.
But what is scary and underused about zerg, they can switch tech so quickly. I can't wait for high level zerg players to invent builds with all sorts of techs and unit combos. I played one zerg where he combo banelings, zerglings, hydras and mutas late game, pretty effective against bio late game. I thought I could crush him without infestors but I was wrong.
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I'm a terrible diamond zerg but I'd like to point out something all zergs should know:
Game 1 - terran does not block his entrance (he also fast expos with 13 scv's lol)
Simply spam zerglings into his base - thats either gg right there, or you can harass pretty effectively.
Checking game 2 in a sec.
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He did open reaper. Don't think spamming lings would work as all my drones would have died. And he would have likely just massed up more reaper if he saw me doing that.
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Another way he can simply kill you off early is by MMM timing push right before spire finishes. I think it was Morrow who did this build vs Dimaga (who rushed for mutas) on Steppes. I can think of a number of timings where this build would be very vulnerable to a timing push with hellion/thor/marine as well since making mutas requires you to use ALL of your gas.
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"He did open reaper. Don't think spamming lings would work as all my drones would have died. And he would have likely just massed up more reaper if he saw me doing that."
It would have worked I guarantee it to you specially with the fast expansion(LOLOL) , if you had gotten speed with the 100 gas and not waited until you had 300 gas.
2 base mass speedling > 1 barracks reaper.
See he hasnt blocked his main:
get natural
get 20 workers more or less , less is fine.
100 gas get speed
move drones out of gas
spam zergling into victory.
What can he do really? you can leave a few lings + queen on your base to stop his harassment , anyhow if he keeps harassing he isnt too bright , you have a queen for defense and his base is unguarded vs mass ling....
EDIT: I've had 2 diamond terrans not block off their base like that but they went for mass barracks, still I just spammed lings from 2 bases and won.
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On August 14 2010 08:16 teamsolid wrote:
Another way he can simply kill you off early is by MMM timing push right before spire finishes. I think it was Morrow who did this build vs Dimaga (who rushed for mutas) on Steppes. I can think of a number of timings where this build would be very vulnerable to a timing push with hellion/thor/marine as well since making mutas requires you to use ALL of your gas.
You are assuming that the build is completely inflexible and that players are machines and can't adapt. I mentioned in my post. It's usually relatively easy to scout MM timing push. I usually kill these with mass lings just fine. Muta will be slightly later b/c you made 40 speedlings and a spinecrawler, but he's now behind b/c of his timing push.
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On August 14 2010 08:16 gustavo wrote:
"He did open reaper. Don't think spamming lings would work as all my drones would have died. And he would have likely just massed up more reaper if he saw me doing that."
It would have worked I guarantee it to you specially with the fast expansion(LOLOL) , if you had gotten speed with the 100 gas and not waited until you had 300 gas.
2 base mass speedling > 1 barracks reaper.
See he hasnt blocked his main:
get natural
get 20 workers more or less , less is fine.
100 gas get speed
move drones out of gas
spam zergling into victory.
What can he do really? you can leave a few lings + queen on your base to stop his harassment , anyhow if he keeps harassing he isnt too bright , you have a queen for defense and his base is unguarded vs mass ling....
EDIT: I've had 2 diamond terrans not block off their base like that but they went for mass barracks, still I just spammed lings from 2 bases and won.
Ok, I'll take your word for it then.
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Yes, mutas are the best answer to T mech, and I can't see how people can argue about it.
Just think about it a second, what cause problems as a Z against T mech ? Units not able to hit air, aka tanks and hellions.
Ok, Thors do fairly well against mutas, but thors are slow as fuck, and sure can't chase mutas. If T has to park some of them in his base with turrets to defend, it's ressources and time he won't use to attack you or get a bigger tank count, which leaves a lot of room for Z to expand and tech to ultras.
The main thing about using mutas is simply not to lose too much of them so you can either mass a sizable ground force or tech to ultras (which wreck mech) while T is contained.
As for turrets, please... Sure you don't want to commit too much to mutas so you can tech get ground units etc etc, but when you start having a big enough number of mutas turrets hardly do anything unless you spam turrets everywhere TD like. And in this case, Z will be waaaaaaaay ahead because of all the ressources T wasted for such things, while also not being able to expand as much as he could want to. And once ultras are out, it's over.
The most important thing some people don't understand is that mutas are not here to kill the T player but to put him way behind by making him waste a shiton of ressources to defend against mutas, such as turrets, and more thors than he'dd like to have
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Good post cArn. I actually prefer broodlords. Since you've been upgrading muta/ling/baneling the entire time, broodlords is on the same tech tree and come out fully upgraded. Ultras probably work fine too.
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This is the strategy I have the most trouble with as Terran. Can you tell me what unit composition Terran can make that gives you a rough time with this strat?
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The toughest time I get are from thor-marine-maurauder, but the terran player must have really good control. So that even when he is surprised by muta-ling-baneling, he can form a spontaneous wall with his maurauders to absorb baneling hits and run marines back to shoot at muta.
In that case I have to pick my spots so that I can actually hit the marines with my baneling otherwise the marines just shred my muta while the thors absorb damage.
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Muta opener might be decent vs mech, I remember hearing about it in beta.
but DEFINITELY NOT a commited muta build... that's suicide. Mass vikings, turrets, marines thors, they are all cost-effective vs mutalisks.
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Although recently, I've had a couple 500-600 level terrans go pure viking when they saw me mass muta. I was like... wtf? and a-moved my way to win. Another terran decided to go ghosts and snipe. That worked fine for my first 6-muta harrass.... but when my next 30 muta showed up it was over.
I lol'd. Not a bad strategy. Similar to my own, usually by the time im done harassing with mutas and exploiting every single hole in their air defense, i've got 3-4 bases and broodlord tech, meanwhile the growth of the terran has been stunted as he's having so much fun with the mutas he's losing track of time and his macro aside from "BUILD AIR DEFENSE!!!".
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I'm a random player so my TvZ is a little unorthodox, but I open 10 rax into a second rax and do the reactor swap to fact to get double hellions and then push with about 5 marines, 1 or 2 marauders and 2 hellions ala TLO.
I'll roast lings and less than 3 spines shouldn't stop me from killing at least a queen. Your mutas could stay and clean me up or go and harrass my base, but the damage from the push seems like it would set you back more than it would me. If I get up your ramp and see that you don't have a roach warren or hyda dren then I'm able to respond. I guess the real strength of this strat is that I'd be too afraid to commit to thor/rine if you could tech switch to roach/hydra.
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On August 14 2010 08:33 Xapti wrote:
Muta opener might be decent vs mech, I remember hearing about it in beta.
but DEFINITELY NOT a commited muta build... that's suicide. Mass vikings, turrets, marines thors, they are all cost-effective vs mutalisks.
Did you watch the replays?
Mass vikings and turrets literally get shredded by muta. Marines and thors are good, but they will be overrun very soon because of containment and the zerg taking the map.
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On August 14 2010 08:44 shutdown_exploded wrote:
I'm a random player so my TvZ is a little unorthodox, but I open 10 rax into a second rax and do the reactor swap to fact to get double hellions and then push with about 5 marines, 1 or 2 marauders and 2 hellions ala TLO.
I'll roast lings and less than 3 spines shouldn't stop me from killing at least a queen. Your mutas could stay and clean me up or go and harrass my base, but the damage from the push seems like it would set you back more than it would me. If I get up your ramp and see that you don't have a roach warren or hyda dren then I'm able to respond. I guess the real strength of this strat is that I'd be too afraid to commit to thor/rine if you could tech switch to roach/hydra.
To be honest, the marine/maruauder hellion push got done to me almost every single game in phase 2 beta. No matter how good ur micro is, 20 speedlings will kill that almost instantly with surround. I got so many wins from that. Because if you incorporate maurauders to plan against roaches, you wont have enough hellion.
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On August 14 2010 08:20 D-Rose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 08:16 teamsolid wrote:
Another way he can simply kill you off early is by MMM timing push right before spire finishes. I think it was Morrow who did this build vs Dimaga (who rushed for mutas) on Steppes. I can think of a number of timings where this build would be very vulnerable to a timing push with hellion/thor/marine as well since making mutas requires you to use ALL of your gas. You are assuming that the build is completely inflexible and that players are machines and can't adapt. I mentioned in my post. It's usually relatively easy to scout MM timing push. I usually kill these with mass lings just fine. Muta will be slightly later b/c you made 40 speedlings and a spinecrawler, but he's now behind b/c of his timing push.
This is exactly what happened. Dimaga scouted Strelok's MM build and started massing pure ling, and by the time the Terran army (5 marauder + 12 marine with stim + bunker building) was at his doorstep he had exactly 40 lings and 22 harvesters with a spire JUST finishing at 7:30. Despite what might happen at lower levels, when a Terran has good control, cuts scvs and has perfect timing, your lings will get shredded.
Here is the link to the game.
http://www.sc2win.com/starcraft-2-replays/tvz-zvt/strelok-vs-dimaga-1-3/
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I tried this on metalopolis, and he had one thor near his ramp. From this position he barely had to move to defend anywhere in either his main or (mining) natural, and he could very easily pull off SCVs to repair it. I put 8 mutas against the thor and he was able to out-repair my DPS.
What to do here? He went mass thors and vikings here, and started attacking my mineral lines. I went roach/ling/infestor, fought off his vikings, and the final battle was just 8 thors vs my ground army and he obliterated it.. I had NP on 4 of his thors but he just one-shotted all my infestors to free them. I probably wouldn't have been able to pull out late game if I hadn't spent an early 1000/1000 to kill 3 scvs.
I don't know what harass I can do when at any moment missiles can barrel in bringing a bunch of mutas down 30% health (can't see as far as thors can shoot) - especially on a cramped map like metalopolis. What can be done?
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People should try this build. I just did, and it works at my level (300 diamond for those that cares). Even when I got thor dropped and spire taken down, once 7-8 mutas pop out the second time, You have all the time in the world to throw down 2 expansions. I ended up losing, because I had 3k min and 2k gas in the bank (not used to having so much money that soon). His final push only had 4 thors and 6 tanks with 6-7 viking support. Failed micro and late ling pop sealed my fate even though i had 20ish mutas. HOWEVER, it was the FIRST time (in diamond) i felt like i was in control against a T =D
^ post above me (Xapti) MAss vikings loses to mass mutas. Turrets are strong, but expensive so if he builds mass turrets, your still good. As OP says, snipe the marines like in SC:BW. Even then you can snipe the first raven (ie, sniping Sci Vessel in Sc;Bw) to delay his push even more, if he pushes out w/o it, you can use burrowed banelings w/e.
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On August 14 2010 09:43 fdsdfg wrote:
I tried this on metalopolis, and he had one thor near his ramp. From this position he barely had to move to defend anywhere in either his main or (mining) natural, and he could very easily pull off SCVs to repair it. I put 8 mutas against the thor and he was able to out-repair my DPS.
What to do here? He went mass thors and vikings here, and started attacking my mineral lines. I went roach/ling/infestor, fought off his vikings, and the final battle was just 8 thors vs my ground army and he obliterated it.. I had NP on 4 of his thors but he just one-shotted all my infestors to free them. I probably wouldn't have been able to pull out late game if I hadn't spent an early 1000/1000 to kill 3 scvs.
I don't know what harass I can do when at any moment missiles can barrel in bringing a bunch of mutas down 30% health (can't see as far as thors can shoot) - especially on a cramped map like metalopolis. What can be done?
Lol mass thors + vikings would lose to lings + hydras? Thors do bonus to Roaches remember?
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EPT
