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On August 22 2010 02:49 Prophecy3 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 22 2010 02:11 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 22:44 hecticSc wrote:
lol ... its so funny when zerg tries this. it's almost an insta-lose for them. At approx 6.30 min when u apparently have jack sh*t in your base terrans can push out with 3-4 preigniter hellions and about 10 marines. You lose your zerglings, you lose your queen(s) you lose most of your drones. As the terran pushes out, by the time he reaches your expo with the rines he will have an armory otw and a second factory. Switch fact with rax reactor and start getting more hellions, a couple of marines and start producing thors. Push out with 2-3 thors, 6-10ish hellions and a couple of marines and 5 scvs for repair. Get your CC going. IF zerg survives the 2nd push, which most of the time he doesnt unless he switched fast to roaches he will deff lose 90-100% of his drones and prolly his expo while u have your expo up and running. 3rd push is gg. There are "some" counters but 95% of the time this is what happens when u FE into mutas. That, or you get into the IEM finals. One of the two. IdrA is The Best Zerg, and one of the best players in the SC2 community right now. With Zero mistakes and perfect scouting, and Terran being unprepared for Mass Mutas, it worked. Had Tarson had a little more time, or got a clutch scan the Muta push would've been resisted and turned away, it took another solid few minutes of continuous Muta pressure to lock the game in IdrAs favour. What i'm saying is; It's a Very soft counter to Terran Mech, and relies mainly on Terran being unprepared and over committing to ground for it to be effective.
What could have Tarson done in that game when you mean unprepared? Idra was going to take the whole map if he didn't push and he would of been repelled if he took a third. Plus broodlords were coming.
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On August 22 2010 04:57 WCH wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 02:49 Prophecy3 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 22 2010 02:11 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 22:44 hecticSc wrote:
lol ... its so funny when zerg tries this. it's almost an insta-lose for them. At approx 6.30 min when u apparently have jack sh*t in your base terrans can push out with 3-4 preigniter hellions and about 10 marines. You lose your zerglings, you lose your queen(s) you lose most of your drones. As the terran pushes out, by the time he reaches your expo with the rines he will have an armory otw and a second factory. Switch fact with rax reactor and start getting more hellions, a couple of marines and start producing thors. Push out with 2-3 thors, 6-10ish hellions and a couple of marines and 5 scvs for repair. Get your CC going. IF zerg survives the 2nd push, which most of the time he doesnt unless he switched fast to roaches he will deff lose 90-100% of his drones and prolly his expo while u have your expo up and running. 3rd push is gg. There are "some" counters but 95% of the time this is what happens when u FE into mutas. That, or you get into the IEM finals. One of the two. IdrA is The Best Zerg, and one of the best players in the SC2 community right now. With Zero mistakes and perfect scouting, and Terran being unprepared for Mass Mutas, it worked. Had Tarson had a little more time, or got a clutch scan the Muta push would've been resisted and turned away, it took another solid few minutes of continuous Muta pressure to lock the game in IdrAs favour. What i'm saying is; It's a Very soft counter to Terran Mech, and relies mainly on Terran being unprepared and over committing to ground for it to be effective. What could have Tarson done in that game when you mean unprepared? Idra was going to take the whole map if he didn't push and he would of been repelled if he took a third. Plus broodlords were coming.
He could've scouted that there was ONLY mutas and made marines with combat shield and stim instead of those ~20 hellions. Up the marine count a bit and make less hellions. I mean Idra didn't even have a baneling nest down in that game. Mass mutas can be good but it was especially good that game since only 1/3 of Tarson's army was able to attack Idra's army.
Sure Idra could've had baneling support but morphing a lot of banelings takes gas and that means less mutas. At the end it was something like ~3500/3500 army from Idra vs. Tarson's ~1500/1500 Thors (one of which was out of range anyway).
Not to take anything away from this strategy but I wouldn't use that game as a good reference point.
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On August 22 2010 06:49 Castaface wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 04:57 WCH wrote:On August 22 2010 02:49 Prophecy3 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 22 2010 02:11 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 22:44 hecticSc wrote:
lol ... its so funny when zerg tries this. it's almost an insta-lose for them. At approx 6.30 min when u apparently have jack sh*t in your base terrans can push out with 3-4 preigniter hellions and about 10 marines. You lose your zerglings, you lose your queen(s) you lose most of your drones. As the terran pushes out, by the time he reaches your expo with the rines he will have an armory otw and a second factory. Switch fact with rax reactor and start getting more hellions, a couple of marines and start producing thors. Push out with 2-3 thors, 6-10ish hellions and a couple of marines and 5 scvs for repair. Get your CC going. IF zerg survives the 2nd push, which most of the time he doesnt unless he switched fast to roaches he will deff lose 90-100% of his drones and prolly his expo while u have your expo up and running. 3rd push is gg. There are "some" counters but 95% of the time this is what happens when u FE into mutas. That, or you get into the IEM finals. One of the two. IdrA is The Best Zerg, and one of the best players in the SC2 community right now. With Zero mistakes and perfect scouting, and Terran being unprepared for Mass Mutas, it worked. Had Tarson had a little more time, or got a clutch scan the Muta push would've been resisted and turned away, it took another solid few minutes of continuous Muta pressure to lock the game in IdrAs favour. What i'm saying is; It's a Very soft counter to Terran Mech, and relies mainly on Terran being unprepared and over committing to ground for it to be effective. What could have Tarson done in that game when you mean unprepared? Idra was going to take the whole map if he didn't push and he would of been repelled if he took a third. Plus broodlords were coming. He could've scouted that there was ONLY mutas and made marines with combat shield and stim instead of those ~20 hellions. Up the marine count a bit and make less hellions. I mean Idra didn't even have a baneling nest down in that game. Mass mutas can be good but it was especially good that game since only 1/3 of Tarson's army was able to attack Idra's army. Sure Idra could've had baneling support but morphing a lot of banelings takes gas and that means less mutas. At the end it was something like ~3500/3500 army from Idra vs. Tarson's ~1500/1500 Thors (one of which was out of range anyway). Not to take anything away from this strategy but I wouldn't use that game as a good reference point.
You do not make a valid point, It is pretty clear that mech terran rapes mutas before this game from the previous IEM games. Lets assume Idra sees more marines instead of hellions and put up a baneling nest. Now 4 banelings will take away one 1 muta in gas cost so lets say Idra makes 16 banelings. Thats 4 less mutas (Lets say 8 less just for this dicussion) Idra had 32 mutas in that game so lets say he had 24 to begin the battle, he lost 4 in the actually game so lets say he lost 10 fighting the marine/thor mix since with Idra's flanking skill that would have annihilated the marine count. Idra would of still came out ahead.
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On August 22 2010 08:15 WCH wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 06:49 Castaface wrote:On August 22 2010 04:57 WCH wrote:On August 22 2010 02:49 Prophecy3 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 22 2010 02:11 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 22:44 hecticSc wrote:
lol ... its so funny when zerg tries this. it's almost an insta-lose for them. At approx 6.30 min when u apparently have jack sh*t in your base terrans can push out with 3-4 preigniter hellions and about 10 marines. You lose your zerglings, you lose your queen(s) you lose most of your drones. As the terran pushes out, by the time he reaches your expo with the rines he will have an armory otw and a second factory. Switch fact with rax reactor and start getting more hellions, a couple of marines and start producing thors. Push out with 2-3 thors, 6-10ish hellions and a couple of marines and 5 scvs for repair. Get your CC going. IF zerg survives the 2nd push, which most of the time he doesnt unless he switched fast to roaches he will deff lose 90-100% of his drones and prolly his expo while u have your expo up and running. 3rd push is gg. There are "some" counters but 95% of the time this is what happens when u FE into mutas. That, or you get into the IEM finals. One of the two. IdrA is The Best Zerg, and one of the best players in the SC2 community right now. With Zero mistakes and perfect scouting, and Terran being unprepared for Mass Mutas, it worked. Had Tarson had a little more time, or got a clutch scan the Muta push would've been resisted and turned away, it took another solid few minutes of continuous Muta pressure to lock the game in IdrAs favour. What i'm saying is; It's a Very soft counter to Terran Mech, and relies mainly on Terran being unprepared and over committing to ground for it to be effective. What could have Tarson done in that game when you mean unprepared? Idra was going to take the whole map if he didn't push and he would of been repelled if he took a third. Plus broodlords were coming. He could've scouted that there was ONLY mutas and made marines with combat shield and stim instead of those ~20 hellions. Up the marine count a bit and make less hellions. I mean Idra didn't even have a baneling nest down in that game. Mass mutas can be good but it was especially good that game since only 1/3 of Tarson's army was able to attack Idra's army. Sure Idra could've had baneling support but morphing a lot of banelings takes gas and that means less mutas. At the end it was something like ~3500/3500 army from Idra vs. Tarson's ~1500/1500 Thors (one of which was out of range anyway). Not to take anything away from this strategy but I wouldn't use that game as a good reference point. You do not make a valid point, It is pretty clear that mech terran rapes mutas before this game from the previous IEM games. Lets assume Idra sees more marines instead of hellions and put up a baneling nest. Now 4 banelings will take away one 1 muta in gas cost so lets say Idra makes 16 banelings. Thats 4 less mutas (Lets say 8 less just for this dicussion) Idra had 32 mutas in that game so lets say he had 24 to begin the battle, he lost 4 in the actually game so lets say he lost 10 fighting the marine/thor mix since with Idra's flanking skill that would have annihilated the marine count. Idra would of still came out ahead.
Yup and Tarson had 5 tanks that would've done well against the banelings. I'm not arguing Idra shouldn't / wouldn't have won the game - all I'm saying is Tarson's unit composition was very far from optimal. He even had 5 marauders in the mix for whatever reason.
You asked "What could have Tarson done in that game when you mean unprepared?" and I gave you an answer. He could've done better scouting and have better gamesense instead of building units according to what he assumed Idra would build.
Mass mutas is a really valid strategy but I wouldn't take much away from that game.
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Mass Marines+ few thors> mutas. Tanks>bling/sling. All he needed was less helions, less thors, more tanks and marines with stim/combatshield to win. Mutas cant engage since under a ball of marines they die instant so Z is forced to try and do a good fungle+baneling attack on marines which is easily stopped by tanks/helions.
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On August 22 2010 10:58 ruiyang wrote:
Mass Marines+ few thors> mutas. Tanks>bling/sling. All he needed was less helions, less thors, more tanks and marines with stim/combatshield to win. Mutas cant engage since under a ball of marines they die instant so Z is forced to try and do a good fungle+baneling attack on marines which is easily stopped by tanks/helions.
That must be why DeMusliM and MorroW both had to resort to reaper cheese to stop DIMAGA and IdrA (DeMusliM failing, MorroW 1-0 so far on the "usage of imba units to win" count).
"easily stopped", spare me.
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Hi guys,
This is my first post and probably only post
micronesia United States. August 14 2010 04:56 Posts 12225
:O
damn, dude. 12225 posts in 7 days???
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On August 22 2010 11:12 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 10:58 ruiyang wrote:
Mass Marines+ few thors> mutas. Tanks>bling/sling. All he needed was less helions, less thors, more tanks and marines with stim/combatshield to win. Mutas cant engage since under a ball of marines they die instant so Z is forced to try and do a good fungle+baneling attack on marines which is easily stopped by tanks/helions. That must be why DeMusliM and MorroW both had to resort to reaper cheese to stop DIMAGA and IdrA (DeMusliM failing, MorroW 1-0 so far on the "usage of imba units to win" count). "easily stopped", spare me.
Reaper rush is generally to avoid Z in going fast expand. I don't know if u ever played zerg, but bio/mech is always better than pure pech in TvZ. As a Z its impossible to deal with it only using mutas. U need blings with infestors which will cut mutas heavily and they still fail against sieged up tanks. I'm just saying that mass muta won't work against a prepared terran and not one that expects that 6 thors beats 30 mutas with 0 other unit support. There's a reason why Z top players call OPand thats cus terran can answer ANYTHING zerg can throw at them if well prepared. And no, I'm not a low diamond.
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What i dont get is, most zerg go for mutas for the early gare harass and mapcontrol. But i dont get why most zergs chose to transition into ultras after, it just doesnt make any sense to me.
Vikings do bonus damage vs heavy, mutas own vikings. If you already have aircontrol with 20+ mutas and you are teching lair to make gass intensive units - why not just make it broodlords and corrupters. You don't have to deal with siegetanks, thors dont do bonus damage to heavy units, you outrange turrets/bunkers, planetary fortress doesnt hit air, marauders cant shoot you obviously etc etc.
Just seems like the more natural transition when you already have aircontrol, and you dont have to deal with the bioball/mech because only two of their usual units can actually shoot air. Your also a threat to turtling terrans that bunker up expos with PF and wait for you to suicide units. The only thing he can really do is basetrade...or watch as you chip away his army/base. Zerg air is really really strong, terran ground is really really strong - isnt it logical?
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United States24799 Posts
On August 22 2010 11:23 Knee wrote: micronesia United States. August 14 2010 04:56 Posts 12225:O damn, dude. 12225 posts in 7 days???
LOL. I hope you are joking and read the first part of the post... XD
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On August 22 2010 11:12 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 10:58 ruiyang wrote:
Mass Marines+ few thors> mutas. Tanks>bling/sling. All he needed was less helions, less thors, more tanks and marines with stim/combatshield to win. Mutas cant engage since under a ball of marines they die instant so Z is forced to try and do a good fungle+baneling attack on marines which is easily stopped by tanks/helions. That must be why DeMusliM and MorroW both had to resort to reaper cheese to stop DIMAGA and IdrA (DeMusliM failing, MorroW 1-0 so far on the "usage of imba units to win" count). "easily stopped", spare me.
Totally what I have to say. +1....
On August 22 2010 11:24 ruiyang wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 11:12 Yaotzin wrote:On August 22 2010 10:58 ruiyang wrote:
Mass Marines+ few thors> mutas. Tanks>bling/sling. All he needed was less helions, less thors, more tanks and marines with stim/combatshield to win. Mutas cant engage since under a ball of marines they die instant so Z is forced to try and do a good fungle+baneling attack on marines which is easily stopped by tanks/helions. That must be why DeMusliM and MorroW both had to resort to reaper cheese to stop DIMAGA and IdrA (DeMusliM failing, MorroW 1-0 so far on the "usage of imba units to win" count). "easily stopped", spare me. Reaper rush is generally to avoid Z in going fast expand. I don't know if u ever played zerg, but bio/mech is always better than pure pech in TvZ. As a Z its impossible to deal with it only using mutas. U need blings with infestors which will cut mutas heavily and they still fail against sieged up tanks. I'm just saying that mass muta won't work against a prepared terran and not one that expects that 6 thors beats 30 mutas with 0 other unit support. There's a reason why Z top players call OPand thats cus terran can answer ANYTHING zerg can throw at them if well prepared. And no, I'm not a low diamond.
If you watch IEM games you would know that siege tanks only won 1 game out of 4 or 5 games vs ling/bling/muta composition (Should be the one where Sarens or Demuslim had perfect tank positioning). Obviously you won't go pure muta if the terran is going bio/mech thats just a no brainer to get blings .Also I am a zerg player so theres no bias here....
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EPT
