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United States24670 Posts
I'm posting this for a friend who doesn't normally use TL but thinks it will be helpful. He said he'd use his new account to discuss/answer questions.
Hi guys,
This is my first post and probably only post, so I'll try to make it count. I'm about to quit sc2 due to foreseeing a very busy schedule in the next few months. But I'd like to share my basic zvt strategy since a lot of zergs are having trouble with the ZvT matchup.
I'm about a 600 level diamond zerg, and ZvT is my best matchup by far, and I win most of my ZvT games against opponents anywhere from the 400s to the 800s in diamond. (If they get above 800, then they become beyond my skill level and it's just I'm too noob to do anything to win). My ZvP and ZvZ, however, aren't that good and that's keeping me back.
My basic strategy is early game to defend until I get mutalisks. Speedling with first 100 gas, then start teching to muta. After I get muta I start upgrading muta non-stop and commit fully to muta. I find that that's actually enough to win me a lot of my ZvT games. Go in his base and harrass with your muta, and try to pick off lone thors obviously. Meanwhile take a couple extra expos while ur opponent is holed up in his base (the key is start mining gas first!). Eventually, when he pushes out with like 4 thors, you should have 4 bases mining and at least 20-ish muta. That should be able to take care of his army. I like to mix ling/baneling in there for any bio units that come along with the thors. If he moves out with anything less than 5 thors, you should be able to just roll over him with your 20 something muta. I had a game where b/c of that early harrass, by the time a 6-thor (plus tank and hellions) push came out I had 23 muta upgraded 1-1, and completely destroyed his push while having 10 muta left over. And we all know that zergs can pump out a lot more muta much faster than terrans can pump out thors if you've kept him to 2 base. One extra benefit is that mass mutas really do pretty well against any variation the terran can throw at you midgame, like mass vikings or mass banshees that I see frequently in ladder games at this level.
I do dislike roach/hydra/speedling builds, because those depend so much on timing and you're at the mercy of your opponent in terms of when he wants to push and where the attack happens. With mass muta, you have control most of the game and can actually abuse the mobility that zergs are known for.
Obviously as I'm only a 600 level zerg I'm not that good a player, but as I'm winning a big majority of my games against equally skilled or slightly better terrans I feel I should should share this with other zergs having problems with the matchup. Even the games I lose, I feel that it's because I screwed up somewhere or the opponent had a really nice play rather than a problem with the build or any race imbalance issues. Hopefully the better zergs can actually improve upon this build and do some serious damage with it. Let me know if you do :p
Here are a couple replays that demonstrate this relatively well. I have a bunch more reps but I'm not gonna upload them all.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ojol3ugk3rppcot
http://www.mediafire.com/?oez839id4txvc28
edit 4: http://www.mediafire.com/?p2xz052gm60903a <---- ~950 terran
edit: more replays:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?5xlt4qti0h17dmo
edit 2:
Replays of how other types of aggressive terran play are dealt with here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=143825¤tpage=7#129
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Uh if he makes any amount of thors with marines he will die instantly. Heck he could make about 10 turrets and get his third and then its just GG. Pretty much any thor timing push could dominate any build with mutas.
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I'm sorry, I'm a bit skeptical about this working against a push. Thors and marines absolutely tear up any amount of mutas, even if you have the carapace upgrade. Hell, even just marines without the massive thor AoE could take out 8-9 mutas in an end game push.
The only success that I've had with mutas is doing a sling/bling/infestor/muta build, where you NP his thors and just run down the rest of his army. However, it's very gas intensive so it doesn't really work early game.
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I know it sounds counter intuitive. But like I said, I win most of my games as ZvT at this level. Any early game push you should be able to counter with your mutas + speedlings. Any mid game push you should be able to counter with your mutas + banelings. Remember to control your banelings well to splash them into their marines instead of their thors. And by late game, you should have brood lords to deal with their push.
I can usually handle any push mid game up to 5 thors and a bunch of marines pretty well.
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Also, you should make an effort to go into his base and pick off his first 1-2 thors. That slows his push by a LOT since thors take a long time to make. Another variation is to take some overseers to corrupt his factory if you're having that much trouble with his early pushes. But usually your harrass and picking off thors should keep him in his base until you're powering from 4 bases and 8 gasses.
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As a Terran player I find Mutalisk and Banelings the hardest to play against. It's so difficult to get more than one expo against a lot of Mutalisk since they're containing you until you decide to push and then they just baneling all your marines and then pick the Thor's off with their mass mutalisk.
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It really doesn't sound like it will work, and you don't even provide enough detail to test this out. Do you go for an early expand, or do the first muta harass off one base? That's a very crucial piece of information you omit. How do you defend? Just speedlings? Spine crawlers? How do you deal with reapers? Hellions? Banshees? Early MM timing push? MM/Tank push before mutas?
Etc..
I mean 'mass mutas' is a pretty vague strategy, especially when all zerg players have tried that and seen it fail - if you're going to push it as a valid strategy, you really need to detail what you do instead of 'build a lot of mutas and kill all his stuff'.
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On August 14 2010 05:10 fdsdfg wrote:
It really doesn't sound like it will work, and you don't even provide enough detail to test this out. Do you go for an early expand, or do the first muta harass off one base? That's a very crucial piece of information you omit. How do you defend? Just speedlings? Spine crawlers? How do you deal with reapers? Hellions? Banshees? Early MM timing push? MM/Tank push before mutas?
Etc..
I mean 'mass mutas' is a pretty vague strategy, especially when all zerg players have tried that and seen it fail - if you're going to push it as a valid strategy, you really need to detail what you do instead of 'build a lot of mutas and kill all his stuff'.
You should look at the replay and read the page of text if you want some details.
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United States24670 Posts
On August 14 2010 05:10 fdsdfg wrote:
It really doesn't sound like it will work, and you don't even provide enough detail to test this out. Do you go for an early expand, or do the first muta harass off one base? That's a very crucial piece of information you omit. How do you defend? Just speedlings? Spine crawlers? How do you deal with reapers? Hellions? Banshees? Early MM timing push? MM/Tank push before mutas?
Etc..
I mean 'mass mutas' is a pretty vague strategy, especially when all zerg players have tried that and seen it fail - if you're going to push it as a valid strategy, you really need to detail what you do instead of 'build a lot of mutas and kill all his stuff'.
I guess this is why I listed it as discussion instead of a guide. You probably should watch the two replays to get an idea and then ask specific questions rather than just request he go into a lot of detail. He might do it anyway though I don't know.
He's not claiming to have perfected it and thinks other good players can improve on what he does... why don't you ask him how he would deal with 'blah' if you think there's a weakness (after watching the reps lol)
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I hatch first expo. I uploaded 2 replays that you can check out for more concrete details. I have like a dozen other ones that I can upload too.
Defending I already said. First 100 gas speedling. That an a spine crawler or two can defend against any type of hellion harrass. Against reapers I drop a bunch of spine crawlers all over the bases and try to micro with lings. (I can post a replay of this if you want, but that game didn't end up going muta vs thor b/c the terran went mass viking after reapering, which is utterly raped by muta). Defending against banshee is to use 2 queens + transfusion and morph and overseer ASAP.
Scouting MM timing push and MM tank push is generally pretty easy for me. If I see reactors going down on his wall barracks with no factory lift-and-switch or that I see lots of marines + some tanks if I suicide a ling up his ramp or sac an ovie, it's pretty safe for me to assume timing push. In that case I just mass up speedlings for a while and wait for his push to come out, then surround and kill.
Sorry about it, it's my first post and I don't know the rules. But I'll try to respond to all your questions. But please watch the replays first, and I can post some more of them if you want.
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On August 14 2010 05:02 Endymion wrote:
I'm sorry, I'm a bit skeptical about this working against a push. Thors and marines absolutely tear up any amount of mutas, even if you have the carapace upgrade. Hell, even just marines without the massive thor AoE could take out 8-9 mutas in an end game push.
The only success that I've had with mutas is doing a sling/bling/infestor/muta build, where you NP his thors and just run down the rest of his army. However, it's very gas intensive so it doesn't really work early game.
Like I said in my initial post, if you see a thor mix with bio then add banelings to the mix.
Watch replay number 2. Replay number 1 is a pure mech terran army. Replay number 2 is a marine/thor terran army.
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after watching the replays i can point out some major flaws in the terran play. however this is still the style i like to play since it has incredible mobility compared to the terrans terrible mobility. and allows you to defend multiple expansions while containing the terran and limiting him to a timing attack (which you can scout and prepare for ).
late game i really like switching from muta ling into brood lord roach hydra if i can get away with it. ultra ling infestor if i dont have quite have as much gas.
the key to this build really is upgrading your lings and mutas and focusing hard on harrassment and picking off tech labs on factories or thors. also almost as important is not clumping your mutas in the engagement. to do this move past the enemy or just click s or h and then focusing down the thors. another key at least when i play this style is makeing a third hatch in the main and getting a super early 3rd. the reason for this is because muta ling leaves you with a ton of minerals and you neeeeeed the third hatch for enough larva to support it. lings take tons of larva so there hidden cost is in the extra hatch.
edit : i have some reps of this style im mid 500 zerg diamond, so im not incredibly good. ill post em later as im at work right now.
edit: was just thinking about the metagame in BW where t players would build up hella tanks marines medics and goliaths for a timing push and zerg players would force the t into making goliaths and rines and keep them from moving out with tons of insane mutalisk micro, while expanding to make things even.
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That's actually some interresting replays !
I agree with you that going speedlings / banelings => muta => muta + broodlords (+ ultralisks, because I think that comes a time where glings are just not enough) seems the best way to go against Terran.
The fact that it keep the Terran defending in his base while letting you harass is huge.
Nuage.
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United States24670 Posts
Added another replay which might better demonstrate some aspects of this (to the OP)
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Thanks for the replays, watching now.
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I watched your first replay and I have to say that I dislike your strategy. It requires far too much gas. During the late game you were running off of 4 bases with fully saturated gas, and not only were you not posing a significant advantage over your opponent, but you were using up ALL of your gas. In my opinion (plat), if you are going to be fully saturating gas on 4 bases, then you should have teched to brood lords. You could have easily mass produced Brood Lords, and they would have given you a much more confident victory(plus they outrange missile turrets)
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I watched the third game, and while I enjoyed watching it (lol @ the terran's opening), the reason you won was he had terrible macro and you had 3 more bases than him. You really could have built whatever units you wanted to win it.
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I usually mass produce brood lords near the end on 4 base. Just that game I was far enough ahead that I was lazy and just didn't do it. Obviously the goal is always to get to brood lords (and if you've been following my build, both brood lords and broodlings should be 2-2 at that point, so it makes for an utterly perfect transition). If you watch the 2nd replay, I definitely transitioned to brood lords at that point.
And what's wrong with requiring far too much gas? I was just using all my gas that's all. I can easily do the same build on 3 base. The reason the first game got somewhat close was because I made a mistake and completely mistimed my attack on his push, thus losing by 3rd despite killing his force. What should have happened was me killing his push without losing my 3rd, and I'd still have tons of gas.
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On August 14 2010 06:22 Ghin wrote:
I watched the third game, and while I enjoyed watching it (lol @ the terran's opening), the reason you won was he had terrible macro and you had 3 more bases than him. You really could have built whatever units you wanted to win it.
You are right of course. But part of the point of my post was that with this build it really helps you get many more bases. As you can see in all of these replays, I am pretty much free to expand because of how mobile my army is and I can defend all of my bases at the same time. Meanwhile you keep the terran confined to 2 bases, and part of his "terrible macro" as you say has to do with me constantly harrassing him and killing his workers/supply depots. Thus the advantage you claim I believe actually comes from the basic strategy itself.
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this actually sounds pretty good... especially since thors do next to no air damage, and most players don't get more than 2, favoring tanks as the prime usage of their factories.
Very cool idea, will have to try it out w/ my friends later!!
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EPT
