On August 16 2010 15:28 BlasiuS wrote: watched the replays, I think the most important thing that you do that hardly anyone else does is get air upgrades.
2-2 mutas are so much better than 0-0 mutas against thors.
Thors do 4 attacks per volley, that means each level of air carapace decreases Thor's attack by 4.
With just level 1 air carapace, thor do 8 damage per attack to mutas, instead of 12; this is huge. If you can stay ahead on air carapace, mutas become much better vs thors.
Wait... I thought it was 4x12 = 48? so If you have +1 carapace you merely decrease it to 4x11=44?
It doesn't work well in lategame vs a camping terran from personal experience. They waltz aroudn with mass Thor/Siege Tanks/Viking and it's just not possible to kill him, as backstabs aren't viable vs a large amount of turrets.
On August 16 2010 15:28 BlasiuS wrote: watched the replays, I think the most important thing that you do that hardly anyone else does is get air upgrades.
2-2 mutas are so much better than 0-0 mutas against thors.
Thors do 4 attacks per volley, that means each level of air carapace decreases Thor's attack by 4.
With just level 1 air carapace, thor do 8 damage per attack to mutas, instead of 12; this is huge. If you can stay ahead on air carapace, mutas become much better vs thors.
Wait... I thought it was 4x12 = 48? so If you have +1 carapace you merely decrease it to 4x11=44?
Maybe I'm wrong.
I'm pretty sure you're right. Each attack does 12 damage, with carapace means, it does 11 damage, so 4x11 is 44 instead of 4x12=48. But the problem is in both cases a mutalisk (125 hp) dies in 3 volleys. So the difference kicks in at +2 carapace against unupgraded Thors, where they need 4 volleys to kill a mutalisk (3 volleys doing 120 damage).
On August 16 2010 18:48 Cajun2k1 wrote: I'm pretty sure you're right. Each attack does 12 damage, with carapace means, it does 11 damage, so 4x11 is 44 instead of 4x12=48. But the problem is in both cases a mutalisk (125 hp) dies in 3 volleys. So the difference kicks in at +2 carapace against unupgraded Thors, where they need 4 volleys to kill a mutalisk (3 volleys doing 120 damage).
Mutas have 120 hp, they seem to regenerate one hp during the volley, so they still survive the 3 volleys against +2 carapace though. Another important thing with carapace upgrades is that they prevent mutas from getting killed by 2 volleys once the terran gets +2 weapons.
Muta vs thor battles are pretty interesting though. If the mutas are mismicroed they die instantly, but thors without micro are pretty bad as well since the thors seems to like to shoot at the same muta, wasting a ton of firepower if you have many thors.
On August 16 2010 15:28 BlasiuS wrote: watched the replays, I think the most important thing that you do that hardly anyone else does is get air upgrades.
2-2 mutas are so much better than 0-0 mutas against thors.
Thors do 4 attacks per volley, that means each level of air carapace decreases Thor's attack by 4.
With just level 1 air carapace, thor do 8 damage per attack to mutas, instead of 12; this is huge. If you can stay ahead on air carapace, mutas become much better vs thors.
Wait... I thought it was 4x12 = 48? so If you have +1 carapace you merely decrease it to 4x11=44?
Maybe I'm wrong.
no you're right, i fucked up my math pretty bad there :X
guess it doesn't do as much as I thought maybe you should get +1 attack first
Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like the +1 carapace helps your mutas survive better b/c it reduces splash damage as well, which isn't as much as the full 44 damage. So I feel like it's not just the simple math of mutas die to 3 hits no matter what carapace they have. Anyone know for sure?
I'm only mid plat z, but part of the reason I've gotten there is because of z v t. I look forward to it because, ATM, I don't feel that T is dealing with mass muta the best they can.
When going against mass Muta, I don't see why (more) T doesn't use ravens and point defense drone.
Missle turrets are stronger now and, while muta's can out number them, thors can do lots of damage to them. I feel that a few PDD's thrown over a mineral line or a defensive position could REALLY shut down any harass.
Lol at most T's I play responding to mutas with vikings... those get hella-pwnd
Has anyone delt with ravens thrown into the mix? I feel like that gives Terran's an even bigger edge...
I was thinking earlier, not sure if it was mentioned already, but:
Wouldn't be viable to have 1 or 2 corruptors with your mutas against thors? Thors receiving 20% more damage should just explode against a pack of mutas, right?
On August 17 2010 03:55 dantroid225 wrote: I'm only mid plat z, but part of the reason I've gotten there is because of z v t. I look forward to it because, ATM, I don't feel that T is dealing with mass muta the best they can.
When going against mass Muta, I don't see why (more) T doesn't use ravens and point defense drone.
Missle turrets are stronger now and, while muta's can out number them, thors can do lots of damage to them. I feel that a few PDD's thrown over a mineral line or a defensive position could REALLY shut down any harass.
Lol at most T's I play responding to mutas with vikings... those get hella-pwnd
Has anyone delt with ravens thrown into the mix? I feel like that gives Terran's an even bigger edge...
Mass marines, some marauders, and siege tanks against mass muta / ling / baneling / infestor. No chance.
The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that hunter seeker missile is the only solution once zerg hits 20+ mutas. And that's if the zerg doesn't run away... It works great in 3v3 and 4v4 games though.
PDD over mineral lines is a brilliant idea too. The only problem is the insane gas cost on ravens coupled with high energy cost of their spells. They're a pretty exclusive tech.
On August 17 2010 04:15 Jermstuddog wrote: This thread: There is no claim that mass mutas wins vs marines, but it does win vs thors so long as you start with 2x the gas invested.
If you're up against mass marines, roaches and banelings are still the way.
I play 1-1-1 vs Zerg, and typically get a Thor out after 2 hellions and my first tank. I reactor my rax early and pump marines, swapping reactor with a factory later so I can get a tech lab for infantry upgrades. If I scout spire, I add 2 rax, switch factory production to thors, get an ebay down for turrets around minerals, and add vikings with excess gas. I also take my nat if I haven't already and feel like I'm not ready to push. This is typical diamond-level play. Tell me how you will beat this once you commit to mass mutas, presuming that I don't go overboard on Thors and keep my tank / hellion count rising in case of tech switch.
On August 17 2010 03:55 dantroid225 wrote: I'm only mid plat z, but part of the reason I've gotten there is because of z v t. I look forward to it because, ATM, I don't feel that T is dealing with mass muta the best they can.
When going against mass Muta, I don't see why (more) T doesn't use ravens and point defense drone.
Missle turrets are stronger now and, while muta's can out number them, thors can do lots of damage to them. I feel that a few PDD's thrown over a mineral line or a defensive position could REALLY shut down any harass.
Lol at most T's I play responding to mutas with vikings... those get hella-pwnd
Has anyone delt with ravens thrown into the mix? I feel like that gives Terran's an even bigger edge...
Ghosts are a better option
Because of snipe? That sounds kinda situational as oppossed to ravens that are an all around support unit and can be useful for the rest of the game.
Late game v Terran, if it gets there, I usually go broodlords and Hydras (to take out vikings) and baneling support. I feel like that, TOO, could get shut down by placing PDD's and then using vikings on the Broodlords, but I never see anyone tech that way...
On August 17 2010 03:55 dantroid225 wrote: I'm only mid plat z, but part of the reason I've gotten there is because of z v t. I look forward to it because, ATM, I don't feel that T is dealing with mass muta the best they can.
When going against mass Muta, I don't see why (more) T doesn't use ravens and point defense drone.
Missle turrets are stronger now and, while muta's can out number them, thors can do lots of damage to them. I feel that a few PDD's thrown over a mineral line or a defensive position could REALLY shut down any harass.
Lol at most T's I play responding to mutas with vikings... those get hella-pwnd
Has anyone delt with ravens thrown into the mix? I feel like that gives Terran's an even bigger edge...
Ghosts are a better option
Because of snipe? That sounds kinda situational as oppossed to ravens that are an all around support unit and can be useful for the rest of the game.
Late game v Terran, if it gets there, I usually go broodlords and Hydras (to take out vikings) and baneling support. I feel like that, TOO, could get shut down by placing PDD's and then using vikings on the Broodlords, but I never see anyone tech that way...
A full-energy ghost can take out 3-4 mutas by himself with snipe and a bit of help. I don't really like building them in TvZ though, 2 vikings have the same gas cost and can double as ovie hunters once you decide to put a stop to your muta folly.
Hydra + bro lord loses to BC + viking + existing ground army (presuming we both chilled out and teched for 10 minutes). You will never actually make bro lords in a diamond 1v1 unless you have a huge macro lead and have effectively won the game already.
On August 17 2010 03:55 dantroid225 wrote: I'm only mid plat z, but part of the reason I've gotten there is because of z v t. I look forward to it because, ATM, I don't feel that T is dealing with mass muta the best they can.
When going against mass Muta, I don't see why (more) T doesn't use ravens and point defense drone.
Missle turrets are stronger now and, while muta's can out number them, thors can do lots of damage to them. I feel that a few PDD's thrown over a mineral line or a defensive position could REALLY shut down any harass.
Lol at most T's I play responding to mutas with vikings... those get hella-pwnd
Has anyone delt with ravens thrown into the mix? I feel like that gives Terran's an even bigger edge...
Ghosts are a better option
Because of snipe? That sounds kinda situational as oppossed to ravens that are an all around support unit and can be useful for the rest of the game.
Late game v Terran, if it gets there, I usually go broodlords and Hydras (to take out vikings) and baneling support. I feel like that, TOO, could get shut down by placing PDD's and then using vikings on the Broodlords, but I never see anyone tech that way...
I hope you're not seriously saying that doing damage is situational Can't possibly see how an instant-cast direct damage ability with no cooldown can ever be considered 'situational'. Snipe counters muta, broodlords, hydras, and stray infestors extremely well, and still works to a lesser degree against banelings, roaches, & corruptors.
Also ghosts can nuke and EMP infestors which are very key in ZvT from what I've seen/read/played.
The problem with ghosts is how gas heavy they are. Snipe is nice but after a certain point you just can't snipe stuff fast enough to be worth it. Plus you're VERY vulnerable to a ground attack without siege tanks.
I do agree ghosts have a role in lategame TvZ, but only as a counter to infestors with EMP, and for nuke harass.
I just watched that CheckPrime game on youtube against MakaPrime (posted above). That was some great play and really goes to show that the mobility of mutalisks can go a very long way to defeating your opponent. As a zerg player, I for one am taking note of this play. He had 40 mutalisks at one point.
On August 17 2010 04:15 Jermstuddog wrote: This thread: There is no claim that mass mutas wins vs marines, but it does win vs thors so long as you start with 2x the gas invested.
If you're up against mass marines, roaches and banelings are still the way.
I play 1-1-1 vs Zerg, and typically get a Thor out after 2 hellions and my first tank. I reactor my rax early and pump marines, swapping reactor with a factory later so I can get a tech lab for infantry upgrades. If I scout spire, I add 2 rax, switch factory production to thors, get an ebay down for turrets around minerals, and add vikings with excess gas. I also take my nat if I haven't already and feel like I'm not ready to push. This is typical diamond-level play. Tell me how you will beat this once you commit to mass mutas, presuming that I don't go overboard on Thors and keep my tank / hellion count rising in case of tech switch.
its not JUST mass muta... banelings and speedlings are in the mix as well, banelings entire point is to destroy escorting marines/helions, and if you have a small helion count he really could just use the mass ling with muta to clean up. banelings do decent against helions as well with flanks, carapace upgrade, and/or having some zerglings act as fodder first.
it takes 3? banelings to kill a helion and 8? banelings to kill a tank so its not exactly super cost efficient but splash makes it fine (as long as they can get in range). the point i'm making with this is that banelings aren't exactly useless vs mech either.
if the heavy muta he produces can force you into a defensive position then he can potentially expand heavily and acquire the mass gas that he needs to keep up production and tech as well.
so he just stand with marines near his thors, and harras is over... Dunno if it was posted in above, but you can send 1 muta a bit forward, then folowed by others, it will give u a sight of where thor shoot aswell as waste his 3 sec cooldown attack on muta.
EPT
maybe you should get +1 attack first
Can't possibly see how an instant-cast direct damage ability with no cooldown can ever be considered 'situational'. Snipe counters muta, broodlords, hydras, and stray infestors extremely well, and still works to a lesser degree against banelings, roaches, & corruptors.
