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Uhm, this works (as do many things) against Terran who aren't very good at mech, but it's pretty questionable against good mech play. All the replays I watched were just players who were too passive, turtled up while investing way too much in tanks, then helpless against mass air when all they had were a few Thors/marines. Duh? You probably could have gone fast Broodlords and won quicker. I mean really, you got away with hatch first on Steppes? Huh... Last time I saw Zerg try that on Steppes I immediately put a bunker between the bases and streamed in Marines and Reapers until GG...
In regard to the ultimate unit composition I'm also not so sure. Against anyone who scouts you're not going to make it to the critical amount of Mutas needed, which is something like 15-20 before you can even touch their army. Zerglings alone will not be able to cope with Hellions and Marines at all and while Banelings help you'll be hurting your Muta production greatly by dealing with early pushes.
That said, this would probably be pretty consistent against Platinum and under play. I wouldn't recommend going the super greedy hatch first builds and if you see them pushing you really do need to switch to something quickly, but it would work. Not sure it's innovative though. Mass air against a turtling Terran that is favoring tanks should be a nobrainer.
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I came looking for this post .. except I'm terran and I'm trying to figure out how to beat it. The problem I have with it is the fact that I cant move around the map.
If the guy has mass Mutalisks, lets say 20+ I need atleast as many marines AND some thors in order to even hang with it. The problem comes in the second I try to take an expansion the mutalisks pick it off. If I move my units out to try and defend the expansion, the mutalisks hit the back of my base!!!
I'm a gold level player, so by no means an expert, but it seems that with just Mutalisks and speedlings, that Terrans can be harassed to the point of not being able to expand.
Lets say the Terran attempts to push out in order to attack an expansion, all the Zerg has to do is HIT once and run ... every time you do that a slow moving thor just about dies.
Its very frustrating, I feel like I honestly cant do anything but sit in my base and turtle while he grabs all of the expansions.
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On August 19 2010 08:48 egotrip21 wrote:
I came looking for this post .. except I'm terran and I'm trying to figure out how to beat it. The problem I have with it is the fact that I cant move around the map.
If the guy has mass Mutalisks, lets say 20+ I need atleast as many marines AND some thors in order to even hang with it. The problem comes in the second I try to take an expansion the mutalisks pick it off. If I move my units out to try and defend the expansion, the mutalisks hit the back of my base!!!
I'm a gold level player, so by no means an expert, but it seems that with just Mutalisks and speedlings, that Terrans can be harassed to the point of not being able to expand.
Lets say the Terran attempts to push out in order to attack an expansion, all the Zerg has to do is HIT once and run ... every time you do that a slow moving thor just about dies.
Its very frustrating, I feel like I honestly cant do anything but sit in my base and turtle while he grabs all of the expansions.
There's a lot of bad info in this thread, so be careful. The basic premise of using mutas in ZvT is that he is getting enough to be able to quickly kill 1-2 thors without taking losses. A flock of half-health mutas kills you just as fast. The solution is to anticipate it. I play 1-1-1, my factory production looks something like this:
1) 2 hellions for marine + hellion push vs FE
2) tech lab
3) 1 tank while building armory
4) 1 thor
By this point, you should know whether or not he is going mutas. The main thing you should be looking for from a scan is lack of roaches and banelings / baneling nest. Not saying that you won't see banelings eventually, but you certainly won't early on unless he is going for a baneling bust or you went 3 rax. Be wary of wily zergs starting buildings while your scan is going, it could be a fakeout.
Anyway, when I go 1-1-1, I typically get a viking from my first starport, then a medivac if there is any opportunity for thorship or siegedrops. The viking comes out before their spire so you can use it to scout their base to look for one and have enough time to respond before mutas become a problem.
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I agree with whomever said Terran hasn't really found a way to deal with muta (at least in plat/low diamond  ).
I like the idea of using mutalisks because yes, it forces marines. What's amazing against bio? Banelings. Muta/banelings/infestors is a great composition against terran, imo. You can buff your ground army as you see fit (and situationally) with either hydralisks or roach and neural parasite his thors- with an eventual tech to ultras and brood lords, but I think muta harass is still very strong in SC2 despite the slight nerf mutalisks have seen in the transition.
The player may get mass tanks/thors. But if you contain him to two bases while you claim the map, this will be difficult for him to do as effectively as he'd like. Bio will almost certainly be forced to a degree which is fairly readily mopped up with bling/speedling.
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The only way to kill mass mutas is with a few lucky hunter seeker missiles (hope he doesn't run away). But that's a TON of gas. Works great in 3v3 and 4v4 matchups though.
I've been doing some experimentation and I'm close to perfecting a stable build order that basically insta-wins against muta openings (and possibly anything but mass roach or insane mass zergling/baneling. I think developing early timing pushes that completely prevent mass muta play is the real solution.
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lol ... its so funny when zerg tries this. it's almost an insta-lose for them. At approx 6.30 min when u apparently have jack sh*t in your base terrans can push out with 3-4 preigniter hellions and about 10 marines. You lose your zerglings, you lose your queen(s) you lose most of your drones. As the terran pushes out, by the time he reaches your expo with the rines he will have an armory otw and a second factory. Switch fact with rax reactor and start getting more hellions, a couple of marines and start producing thors. Push out with 2-3 thors, 6-10ish hellions and a couple of marines and 5 scvs for repair. Get your CC going. IF zerg survives the 2nd push, which most of the time he doesnt unless he switched fast to roaches he will deff lose 90-100% of his drones and prolly his expo while u have your expo up and running. 3rd push is gg. There are "some" counters but 95% of the time this is what happens when u FE into mutas.
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On August 21 2010 22:44 hecticSc wrote:
lol ... its so funny when zerg tries this. it's almost an insta-lose for them. At approx 6.30 min when u apparently have jack sh*t in your base terrans can push out with 3-4 preigniter hellions and about 10 marines. You lose your zerglings, you lose your queen(s) you lose most of your drones. As the terran pushes out, by the time he reaches your expo with the rines he will have an armory otw and a second factory. Switch fact with rax reactor and start getting more hellions, a couple of marines and start producing thors. Push out with 2-3 thors, 6-10ish hellions and a couple of marines and 5 scvs for repair. Get your CC going. IF zerg survives the 2nd push, which most of the time he doesnt unless he switched fast to roaches he will deff lose 90-100% of his drones and prolly his expo while u have your expo up and running. 3rd push is gg. There are "some" counters but 95% of the time this is what happens when u FE into mutas.
That, or you get into the IEM finals. One of the two.
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Have been doing this recently for my ZvT and have been winning most of the games. Developed it when i played against my friend constantly.
If you still think this is not viable, watch IEM xelnaga caverns Tarson Vs Idra
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Finally zerg can stop crying after watching idra vs tarson lol
All it takes is a new trick new build new something instead of this stagnant whining and asking for a patch. As a terran player I fear this new muta technique which was displayed viably at the highest levels (time to think of a way to counter this instead of QQ)
This is a great thing for sc2, hopefully people will now realize that its the meta game that needs to change, not the balance. The evolution of sc2 is heading in the right direction.
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On August 22 2010 02:15 metaphoR wrote:
Finally zerg can stop crying after watching idra vs tarson lol
All it takes is a new trick new build new something instead of this stagnant whining and asking for a patch. As a terran player I fear this new muta technique which was displayed viably at the highest levels (time to think of a way to counter this instead of QQ)
This is a great thing for sc2, hopefully people will now realize that its the meta game that needs to change, not the balance. The evolution of sc2 is heading in the right direction.
Mass Marine does a solid job at dealing with Mutas. Stimmed Marines shred the Mutas without having to rely on splash damage, and can be replenished much faster. You just need enough of a head start to get the Reactors and researches done (read: don't tech switch into it after a Hellion-Banshee opening, a Reaper-Marauder opening works better for that).
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On August 22 2010 02:33 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 02:15 metaphoR wrote:
Finally zerg can stop crying after watching idra vs tarson lol
All it takes is a new trick new build new something instead of this stagnant whining and asking for a patch. As a terran player I fear this new muta technique which was displayed viably at the highest levels (time to think of a way to counter this instead of QQ)
This is a great thing for sc2, hopefully people will now realize that its the meta game that needs to change, not the balance. The evolution of sc2 is heading in the right direction. Mass Marine does a solid job at dealing with Mutas. Stimmed Marines shred the Mutas without having to rely on splash damage, and can be replenished much faster. You just need enough of a head start to get the Reactors and researches done (read: don't tech switch into it after a Hellion-Banshee opening, a Reaper-Marauder opening works better for that).
Watch other replays of Dimaga or ZvT where the T goes bio to deal with mutats. What ends up happening is the zerg going ling/baneling + muta and ends up winning most of the games.
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On August 22 2010 02:35 WCH wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2010 02:33 Acritter wrote:On August 22 2010 02:15 metaphoR wrote:
Finally zerg can stop crying after watching idra vs tarson lol
All it takes is a new trick new build new something instead of this stagnant whining and asking for a patch. As a terran player I fear this new muta technique which was displayed viably at the highest levels (time to think of a way to counter this instead of QQ)
This is a great thing for sc2, hopefully people will now realize that its the meta game that needs to change, not the balance. The evolution of sc2 is heading in the right direction. Mass Marine does a solid job at dealing with Mutas. Stimmed Marines shred the Mutas without having to rely on splash damage, and can be replenished much faster. You just need enough of a head start to get the Reactors and researches done (read: don't tech switch into it after a Hellion-Banshee opening, a Reaper-Marauder opening works better for that). Watch other replays of Dimaga or ZvT where the T goes bio to deal with mutats. What ends up happening is the zerg going ling/baneling + muta and ends up winning most of the games.
I said dealing with *Mutas*. Banelings have to be dealt with another way, along with Zerglings.
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It's going to be soooo funny reading the comments about this strategy post IEM and comparing them to the comments pre-IEM.
How hillarious that Idra, of all people, would head the "Ok, maybe zerg isn't UP after all" campaign.
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On August 22 2010 02:44 REM.ca wrote:
It's going to be soooo funny reading the comments about this strategy post IEM and comparing them to the comments pre-IEM.
How hillarious that Idra, of all people, would head the "Ok, maybe zerg isn't UP after all" campaign.
irony!
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 22 2010 02:11 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 22:44 hecticSc wrote:
lol ... its so funny when zerg tries this. it's almost an insta-lose for them. At approx 6.30 min when u apparently have jack sh*t in your base terrans can push out with 3-4 preigniter hellions and about 10 marines. You lose your zerglings, you lose your queen(s) you lose most of your drones. As the terran pushes out, by the time he reaches your expo with the rines he will have an armory otw and a second factory. Switch fact with rax reactor and start getting more hellions, a couple of marines and start producing thors. Push out with 2-3 thors, 6-10ish hellions and a couple of marines and 5 scvs for repair. Get your CC going. IF zerg survives the 2nd push, which most of the time he doesnt unless he switched fast to roaches he will deff lose 90-100% of his drones and prolly his expo while u have your expo up and running. 3rd push is gg. There are "some" counters but 95% of the time this is what happens when u FE into mutas.
That, or you get into the IEM finals. One of the two.
IdrA is The Best Zerg, and one of the best players in the SC2 community right now. With Zero mistakes and perfect scouting, and Terran being unprepared for Mass Mutas, it worked. Had Tarson had a little more time, or got a clutch scan the Muta push would've been resisted and turned away, it took another solid few minutes of continuous Muta pressure to lock the game in IdrAs favour.
What i'm saying is; It's a Very soft counter to Terran Mech, and relies mainly on Terran being unprepared and over committing to ground for it to be effective.
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It is hardly a soft counter. Have fun trying to take your 3rd base or attacking Z as pure mech. In either case you will have dilute your ground with marines/ghosts, which is exactly what Z wants.
Marines are not the complete answer. Early on, if the build is some sort of reaper pressure -> bio, then yea you can probably fit a bio push against Z before Muta mass (he will be forced not to muta first). But if you do mech variant first, I think the better solution is to grab ghost. Between 6-8 ghost, off your 3 techlab rax, can keep the muta harass off your back with snipe.
The problem of course is that if Z goes roaches, you will be in trouble (needed to have pumped marauder). So there is a blindspot just as well for T's that FE.
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HSM could be useful later on though against broodlord/corruptor. You can soften them up with HSM, and then snipe/viking the rest. Otherwise, without HSM, viking vs Z air is uphill (will easily be overpowered/outproduced). Turrets are also probably pretty good, with the relevant upgrades. If you start massing up a bunch of raven late, you can probably just spam the turrets at expos vs mutas.
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Bloody hell.
1. The muta vs. thor thing is great, yes, but it isn't new (courtesy of Zelniq, AFAIK).
2. The issue with ZvT isn't when the Z has 2+ bases saturated and a spire. It's dying to reapers, reapers into marauders, blue flame hellion drops, banshees, and the 8 million other openings T has to harass Z early game before the second expansion is fully up and running.
In fact, the very THREAT of reaper harass makes hatchery first builds basically impossible (given that they're auto-lose). That makes it hard to macro vs. the T early into early-mid game. After that, if you can make a meaningful transition into T2, stuff is OK.
People (Z players and T players alike) need to stop being "HURR DURR OP" bandwagon-ers and play the game. ONE pro-game/series doesn't change the verdict on balance in an entire matchup. Is the metagame evolving? Yes. Might ZvT still be slightly imbalanced (T early, Z late)? Yes. Does that matter for 99.99% of the players posting on TL? No.
/rant.
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On August 22 2010 02:49 Prophecy3 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 22 2010 02:11 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 22:44 hecticSc wrote:
lol ... its so funny when zerg tries this. it's almost an insta-lose for them. At approx 6.30 min when u apparently have jack sh*t in your base terrans can push out with 3-4 preigniter hellions and about 10 marines. You lose your zerglings, you lose your queen(s) you lose most of your drones. As the terran pushes out, by the time he reaches your expo with the rines he will have an armory otw and a second factory. Switch fact with rax reactor and start getting more hellions, a couple of marines and start producing thors. Push out with 2-3 thors, 6-10ish hellions and a couple of marines and 5 scvs for repair. Get your CC going. IF zerg survives the 2nd push, which most of the time he doesnt unless he switched fast to roaches he will deff lose 90-100% of his drones and prolly his expo while u have your expo up and running. 3rd push is gg. There are "some" counters but 95% of the time this is what happens when u FE into mutas. That, or you get into the IEM finals. One of the two. IdrA is The Best Zerg, and one of the best players in the SC2 community right now. With Zero mistakes and perfect scouting, and Terran being unprepared for Mass Mutas, it worked. Had Tarson had a little more time, or got a clutch scan the Muta push would've been resisted and turned away, it took another solid few minutes of continuous Muta pressure to lock the game in IdrAs favour. What i'm saying is; It's a Very soft counter to Terran Mech, and relies mainly on Terran being unprepared and over committing to ground for it to be effective.
rofl what ? unprepared ?? He already had a thor almost completed when the first mutas did pop out, and after getting his expo he had like 3 factories pumping thors and 1 hellions (with some hellions in between), don't talk crap when you obviously didn't even see the game. He was as prepared against this muta / ling as it gets, but even with those 5 or 6 thors he got completely raped by the mutas alone, and couldn't replenish fast enough because you know what, thors are expensive and long to produce.
Really hate when people talk about things they obviously didn't even look at
Also, to clarify things, I'm not saying hey look at this game, mutas are imbalanced against Terran, Idra was simply better than Tarson that game, I'm just saying all this zerg cryfest bandwagon have to stop after all those actual demonstrations that it's just bullshit. I've always been thinking TvZ is a balanced matchup and the most enjoyable to play/watch, and reasons to confort my opinion don't cease to appear.
PS : It has been a fucking long time I've told zergs I know who complain about this matchup mutas are very good, seems I was right
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i like really eary mutas off 2 base and force the T into thors and marines. Then i poop creep somewhere not likley to be scouted and lay down roach W and steam roll with 2 base macro
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The biggest issue with Zerg is early game. Once you have 2-3 bases, you can replenish drones very rapidly, so even if a Terran successfully roasts an entire base's worth of drones with blue flame hellions, you're not as SOL as the other races are when that happens. The problem is getting there.
I think bigger maps would make this match-up pretty balanced if not in favor of Zerg. I mean, Terran really has no way to defend a huge area with mech and Fungal Growth + Banelings are just so, so powerful against maneuverable bio mixes. And giving Zerg that extra breathing space would significantly lessen the power of early game pressure by Terran.
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EPT
