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On August 14 2010 06:24 D-Rose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 06:22 Ghin wrote:
I watched the third game, and while I enjoyed watching it (lol @ the terran's opening), the reason you won was he had terrible macro and you had 3 more bases than him. You really could have built whatever units you wanted to win it. You are right of course. But part of the point of my post was that with this build it really helps you get many more bases. As you can see in all of these replays, I am pretty much free to expand because of how mobile my army is and I can defend all of my bases at the same time. Meanwhile you keep the terran confined to 2 bases, and part of his "terrible macro" as you say has to do with me constantly harrassing him and killing his workers/supply depots. Thus the advantage you claim I believe actually comes from the basic strategy itself.
Sorry I meant bad MICRO. You didn't need to fly under missile turrets sometimes. I may experiment with this, but I will surely try to tech to Brood Lords faster, or Ultras.
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Sorry I meant bad MICRO. You didn't need to fly under missile turrets sometimes. I may experiment with this, but I will surely try to tech to Brood Lords faster, or Ultras.
Yeah, like I said. I'm not a great player and neither are my opponents. I'm sure you can improve on my build.
But I feel like you're missing the point slightly. The main purpose of the build is to build enough of an advantage so you can end the game WITH hive tech later on, esp brood lords. The build itself is not meant to be game ending. Most zergs seem like they lose the game early-mid game and don't even make it to late game. What I'm doing seems to get you to late game usually, and with tons of resources/larvae to spare.
If you watch replay 2. I maxed at 200/200. Then I decided to be uber n00b and threw all my forces at his seiged units at his choke. But that's ok, I had already transitioned to brood lords. And by a side effect of my build, both broodlords and broodlings are 2-2 upgraded by that point.
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On August 14 2010 06:26 uberdeluxe wrote:
this actually sounds pretty good... especially since thors do next to no air damage, and most players don't get more than 2, favoring tanks as the prime usage of their factories.
Very cool idea, will have to try it out w/ my friends later!!
Actually that's not really true. Most terrans at the diamond level will spam thors when they see you mass muta. I see most zergs running away and switching to ground forces right away, then getting pummelled midgame by a push. I'm saying that that doesn't necessarily need to happen.
Thors don't do too much air damage, but they splash like crazy. So like the other poster said, just fly over the thors and you're fine.
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This strategy forces the Terran to do a lot of things that they don't like having to do against Zerg. Mutas force Marines, Turrets, and Thors. This means less minerals for tanks which absolutely eat up the zerg ground army. Sure it's gas heavy for zerg but that's the beauty of the Mutalisk. It provides the map control and containment necessary to expand and get 3 or 4 bases worth of gas up.
As evidenced by the replays, blings turn marines into green goo awfully quickly and missile turrets cost 100 minerals plus SCV time and attention to build. Each one that I make him build is a victory for me. I can keep picking away at his base until he turrets up and then keep my muta force to pick off tanks and other units when his army is on the move. Any mass of zerg units running head on into a competent terran defensive position will lose, the mutas give you the ability to flank from the air and take out important support units that could otherwise cripple your suicide loving ground army.
Anyway, I like this strategy a lot for ZvT because it actually feels like the Zerg player has some control over the game. It's difficult to find a ZvT where the zerg isn't constantly defending and just barely surviving until he can trade armies and overwhelm with stockpiled larvae.
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zergling baneling muta is very strong and ive lost to it quite a few times.
however the zerg needs to send his ling/banelings into battle first blow up 1/2 the marines then the 20 muta arrive to clean up a couple lone thor/marines
if the muta come in while all the marines/thors are still alive they will just melt
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How fast do you get the mutas? I open with pre-igniter Hellions and use 4-6 of them to kill the zerglings and then kill a ton of drones into Thors. I doubt your mutas would be ready to stop Hellion harassment.
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I agree with micro, I've used the mass mutat in ZvT for a long time and its been working out great.
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I mass muta lings and banelings and have very few problems with terrans, i have to say. Jusst non stop harrasment with mutas, take 3rd expo macro lings and banelings in mean time get hive if he pushes 3rd you should have enough forces to destroy his push and then gg or get to ultras and lings.
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On August 14 2010 06:37 D-Rose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 06:26 uberdeluxe wrote:
this actually sounds pretty good... especially since thors do next to no air damage, and most players don't get more than 2, favoring tanks as the prime usage of their factories.
Very cool idea, will have to try it out w/ my friends later!! Actually that's not really true. Most terrans at the diamond level will spam thors when they see you mass muta. I see most zergs running away and switching to ground forces right away, then getting pummelled midgame by a push. I'm saying that that doesn't necessarily need to happen. Thors don't do too much air damage, but they splash like crazy. So like the other poster said, just fly over the thors and you're fine.
Orly... I diamond level myself, but I usually go for a roach/hydra/ling/infestor kind of mix, so I didn't know about the whole, people responding with mass thors. However if theres less tanks, hydras could be pretty effective? I guess this muta thing is something you really have to transition into/out of.
Also, as long as we are talking about mech counters, nydussing 30-ish lings behind him late-game can make him unseige, and totally punishable from the front with your main army, especially if you have ultras.
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if u don't get roaches like my terran makes u...u will get harassed by a lot of my helions?
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On August 14 2010 06:44 vnlegend wrote:
How fast do you get the mutas? I open with pre-igniter Hellions and use 4-6 of them to kill the zerglings and then kill a ton of drones into Thors. I doubt your mutas would be ready to stop Hellion harassment.
I sometimes do have some problems with that. But if that happens I escape my drones to my main and sunk up my nat. And let my queen block ramp. Then I wait for either you to screw up with your hellion micro or for my first couple muta to arrive. They definitely won't arrive b4 ur hellions show up, but I can sacrifice a little economy b/c I'll have map control very soon.
Oh, and I like to sacrifice 1 early muta for a faster +1 air carapace, which I start as soon as spire finishes.
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Orly... I diamond level myself, but I usually go for a roach/hydra/ling/infestor kind of mix, so I didn't know about the whole, people responding with mass thors. However if theres less tanks, hydras could be pretty effective? I guess this muta thing is something you really have to transition into/out of.
Also, as long as we are talking about mech counters, nydussing 30-ish lings behind him late-game can make him unseige, and totally punishable from the front with your main army, especially if you have ultras.
I actually never transition out of mutaling baneling until hive tech, where I transition to broodlords since it's just such a natural transition with all the upgrades done. But you have plenty of map contorl/resources to pull it off. And yeah terrans like to spam thors against u when they see muta.
Although recently, I've had a couple 500-600 level terrans go pure viking when they saw me mass muta. I was like... wtf? and a-moved my way to win. Another terran decided to go ghosts and snipe. That worked fine for my first 6-muta harrass.... but when my next 30 muta showed up it was over.
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I just tried it in a couple zvts and they work fine if not scouted. They aren't the counter since you are banking on him not having enough thors but it gives your opponent something to think about. Hopefully if zergs do this enough, Terrans will be forced into making more thors and weakening their tank line tremendously.
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On August 14 2010 06:47 ahcho00 wrote:
if u don't get roaches like my terran makes u...u will get harassed by a lot of my helions?
If you make the 4-5 hellions WITHOUT pre-igniter upgrade, my speedlings take care of that perfectly fine no problem most games.
If you do make the upgrade, I usually sacrifice some eco and move my drones to main while blocking ramp with 1-2 queens, and wait for muta or sunk up nat.
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This is very strong if it gets through, however, I will be knocking on your door with 5 infernal pre-igniter hellions, 5-8 marines and 2 thors before you get a critical amount of mutalisks up + I'll bring SCVs on autorepair. I don't think this build can do a lot against that.
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On August 14 2010 06:52 kNyTTyM wrote:
I just tried it in a couple zvts and they work fine if not scouted. They aren't the counter since you are banking on him not having enough thors but it gives your opponent something to think about. Hopefully if zergs do this enough, Terrans will be forced into making more thors and weakening their tank line tremendously.
It actually works fine for me every game even if they scout it. I put my spire right by my main hatch so it gets scanned every single game... and terrans do expect it. And I still usually come out on top with it. Maybe your timings are a little off since you just started trying the build?
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On August 14 2010 06:52 kNyTTyM wrote:
I just tried it in a couple zvts and they work fine if not scouted. They aren't the counter since you are banking on him not having enough thors but it gives your opponent something to think about. Hopefully if zergs do this enough, Terrans will be forced into making more thors and weakening their tank line tremendously.
Also, one more thing is that I'm not banking on him not having enough thors. I usually ACTIVELY try to go into his base with my first muta and pick off his first 1-2 thors, as well as any scvs/lone bio units that are around. Maybe I'll corrupt a factory even b4 my spire or get to kill an armory after my spire. That actually delays his push by such a large amount that by the time it comes you're on 4 bases and have mass banelings.
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On August 14 2010 06:53 ChickenLips wrote:
This is very strong if it gets through, however, I will be knocking on your door with 5 infernal pre-igniter hellions, 5-8 marines and 2 thors before you get a critical amount of mutalisks up + I'll bring SCVs on autorepair. I don't think this build can do a lot against that.
That may be possible. I haven't seen that happen to me so I can't really provide a counter to that. I feel like by the time you have 2 thors I should have enough muta/ling/sunken to handle it, but I haven't seen that done to me so I can't really comment.
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Sounds like how the koreans tend to play. There is always a hole you can exploit with mutalisks, you just have to find it. It takes a good bit of micro though.
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I like the build, but it does seem to be very vulnerable to an early 6hellion and 1tank, handfull of marines push at your nat. That can get to you in time to put a real dent in your gas income. I will test around with it.
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EPT
