[D] Counter to terran mech = mass muta - Page 4

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sikyon

Canada1045 Posts

August 14 2010 00:52 GMT

#61

On August 14 2010 09:47 me_viet wrote:

Show nested quote +

Lol mass thors + vikings would lose to lings + hydras? Thors do bonus to Roaches remember?

I think you're the one that should remember what unit type thors do bonus damage to.

D-Rose

58 Posts

August 14 2010 00:57 GMT

#62

On August 14 2010 09:43 fdsdfg wrote:
I tried this on metalopolis, and he had one thor near his ramp. From this position he barely had to move to defend anywhere in either his main or (mining) natural, and he could very easily pull off SCVs to repair it. I put 8 mutas against the thor and he was able to out-repair my DPS.

What to do here? He went mass thors and vikings here, and started attacking my mineral lines. I went roach/ling/infestor, fought off his vikings, and the final battle was just 8 thors vs my ground army and he obliterated it.. I had NP on 4 of his thors but he just one-shotted all my infestors to free them. I probably wouldn't have been able to pull out late game if I hadn't spent an early 1000/1000 to kill 3 scvs.

I don't know what harass I can do when at any moment missiles can barrel in bringing a bunch of mutas down 30% health (can't see as far as thors can shoot) - especially on a cramped map like metalopolis. What can be done?

Well don't engage 1 thor with SCVS repairing when u only have 8 muta.

Wait a bit, double expo, and keep pumping those muta. Pretty soon ull have like 20 muta against like 3 thors and then u can engage. Fly over, spread, then target thors 1 by 1. Also start making your baneling.

Armsved

Denmark642 Posts

August 14 2010 01:00 GMT

#63

Yeah, im 750 terran, and this build is absolutely discusting.

Thors DO NOT counter muta. Zergs needs to learn to press far behind the thor and the press hold as soon as they are above the thor(s). By doing this you wont get any splash damage which renders the thors useless (or atleast less cost effective). And with 10 mutas you can just take out turrets.

All these whiny zergs need to try out this build and own some terran.

And if the terran overcommit to thors, just mass lings/roach.

This of course doesnt deal with the fact that terran has a tons of openings, but it will certainly own a lot of meching terrans if you get to the midgame.

Most important, dont let your mutas bunch together, this is done by pressing far behind why you are going. Nothing more stupid than watching a zerg attack click the thor to have them bunch up for the aoe, get scared, run away just to have the thor deal a second round of huge aoe and then proceed to go on TL and whine about mech and thor aoe.

Best of luck

Tythos

United States18 Posts

August 14 2010 01:00 GMT

#64

It's not a bad idea, if you can catch him with the right timing (before he thinks to turret up, and with enough time to hold off his third). I wouldn't rely on this as an effective end-game strategy, though; it's more of a means to an end.

No_eL

Chile1438 Posts

August 14 2010 01:03 GMT

#65

ohhh wow, finally new reps for good zerg players =) thank you so much im struggling so hard for beat terran players and timing pushes!!

this can be a totally new set of ideas, thx a lot!!!!

D-Rose

58 Posts

August 14 2010 01:04 GMT

#66

On August 14 2010 09:44 me_viet wrote:
People should try this build. I just did, and it works at my level (300 diamond for those that cares). Even when I got thor dropped and spire taken down, once 7-8 mutas pop out the second time, You have all the time in the world to throw down 2 expansions. I ended up losing, because I had 3k min and 2k gas in the bank (not used to having so much money that soon). His final push only had 4 thors and 6 tanks with 6-7 viking support. Failed micro and late ling pop sealed my fate even though i had 20ish mutas. HOWEVER, it was the FIRST time (in diamond) i felt like i was in control against a T =D

^ post above me (Xapti) MAss vikings loses to mass mutas. Turrets are strong, but expensive so if he builds mass turrets, your still good. As OP says, snipe the marines like in SC:BW. Even then you can snipe the first raven (ie, sniping Sci Vessel in Sc;Bw) to delay his push even more, if he pushes out w/o it, you can use burrowed banelings w/e.

Good

I was hoping people would actually try it out first before passing judgement. I gave it to a couple friends who immediately had a lot of success with it as well when they had been having trouble with ZvT also.

D-Rose

58 Posts

August 14 2010 01:05 GMT

#67

On August 14 2010 10:00 Tythos wrote:
It's not a bad idea, if you can catch him with the right timing (before he thinks to turret up, and with enough time to hold off his third). I wouldn't rely on this as an effective end-game strategy, though; it's more of a means to an end.

I acutally don't tihnk it's that timing based. As I've said I've had a lot of success against it, and I havne't ever hard to rely on something timing related. Just modify it a little bit as you see fit in different games.

And yes, it's not end-game, but it's meant to give you all the time you need to get 4 bases and the resources you need to mass up brood lords.

CruS

Sweden218 Posts

August 14 2010 01:09 GMT

#68

This is my build aswell (inspired by the ZvT day9 daily featuring Sen vs DeMulisM).

I get hellion harrassed, and banshee'd

worth a look!

Burn2Memory

United States574 Posts

August 14 2010 01:18 GMT

#69

pretty interesting game between Check and maka that I just watched. Check going mass muta vs maka even though he had multiple thors and AA turrets.

http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/451

Kupo

Sweden151 Posts

August 14 2010 01:45 GMT

#70

From a terran players perspective, the thing that bothers me about the replays in the OP is that the terrans go for tanks when there is no real roach threat. To me that just seems like a waste of gas.

I have seen some similar strategies (most zergs seems to go lings+mutas), and what works really great for me is to just go for an early armory and spend my gas on weapon upgrades, thors and infernal pre-igniter. From that position I usually have enough thors to fight any muta threat, especially when I get some weapon upgrades done and thors only need two salvos to kill mutas.

I'm not saying that I don't believe in mass mutas, but I do believe that you have to give the terran a reason to spend his gas on other things than thors and their upgrades.

shutdown_exploded

United States133 Posts

August 14 2010 01:56 GMT

#71

On August 14 2010 10:00 Armsved wrote:

Thors DO NOT counter muta. Zergs needs to learn to press far behind the thor and the press hold as soon as they are above the thor(s). By doing this you wont get any splash damage

Can someone explain this to me? Thor's still do splash to targets right above them, right? It's just that by setting the move command beyond the thors the mutas don't bunch up for the attack?

After the hold position command you can still target fire a thor without them bunching, but then how do you micro for the other thors in the group?

Armsved

Denmark642 Posts

August 14 2010 02:02 GMT

#72

On August 14 2010 10:56 shutdown_exploded wrote:

Show nested quote +

Tbh im not sure, but I'd imaginge its a question of distance between each muta and not the placement of them and "the center of the thor".

D-Rose

58 Posts

August 14 2010 02:03 GMT

#73

After they're spread out, you can just shift-target the thors and they'll do fine. Mutas aren't melee units, they do have range.

Thor's splash range is deceptively small, like the EMP from brood war.

Moa

United States790 Posts

August 14 2010 02:37 GMT

#74

Recently I've been using a muta/ling strat that transitions into ultras (mid diamond). I find that the speed of lings makes a doom push very difficult because unless the player is tank hopping I can run my zerglings into him when he is unprepared. Hellions make this a difficult maneuver but not impossible. Also with muta harass you force him to split his forces somewhat or lose the game.

I really like mutalisk harass because it does a couple of things.
1. Slow down his economy (this is obvious)
2. Cause the over production of thors which really are ineffective against upgraded zerglings
3. Delay or cause a premature push, some players will push when they are uncomfortable because with an effective mutalisk harass they get behind in the worker count and feel that the longer the game lasts the farther behind they will fall. Or they will turtle up with thors in their mineral lines and only push out when they think they can end the game. A premature push is easily defended, a late push will allow me to get ultras to 3/3(6) and produce them to my hearts content.

iEchoic

United States1776 Posts

August 14 2010 02:51 GMT

#75

This zerg player is 100% correct. Mass mutas slaughters mech. All you have to do is do the move over and attack trick to spread over the thors and you win easily. I've been playing a lot of really good Z players who have just been annihilating me with it. Thors aren't good against mutas that are spread even a little bit.

You can also use mass mutas to take down turrets and force the Terran to 1-2 bases.

There are seriously so many answers to Terran mech it's not even funny. It makes the Zerg whining even more stupid.

deadmund

1 Post

August 14 2010 03:16 GMT

#76

I'm around 400 points platinum and I usually end up winning with mutas and some speedlings. I think I'm going to just harass with mutas, but then I found I've built 20 and harassed so well that the enemy is cramped and poor, so I just end it. I'm waiting for this to stop working but so far it hasn't.

I'd love if someone would explain the trick to make mutas spread out in detail.

fearus

China2164 Posts

August 14 2010 03:21 GMT

#77

Im a T and I get raped by Mutas and Broodlords all the time

ohN

United States1075 Posts

August 14 2010 04:36 GMT

#78

On August 14 2010 10:18 Burn2Memory wrote:
pretty interesting game between Check and maka that I just watched. Check going mass muta vs maka even though he had multiple thors and AA turrets.

http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/451

Very good replay imo. Check and maka are really good players. Check showing that mutas are in-fact, not useless vs terran. They're very good actually.
+ Show Spoiler +

Maka (terran) at the end says in rough translation: "Fuck, is this balanced?"

Jermstuddog

United States2231 Posts

August 14 2010 04:47 GMT

#79

600 diamond Z and I support this build. If you want to see somebody other than the OP use massive amounts of mutas in ZvT I can give replays as well.

My personal points with this build is 1 hide the spire, and 2 hide the mutas until you have 10+.

DO NOT go harass with 4-6 as that small a number really just isn't scary and can be pushed away with a handful of marines and a few turrets, costing you tons of gas for every muta you lose.. But if 11 mutas show up out of nowhere, it can often seal the deal right there. If not, I continue to mass mutas while pouring extra minerals in lings. Wait for him to push out, as long as you are 4:1 muta:thor (I've had like 30+ in some games), and have enough lings to keep everything occupied for just a few seconds, you'll win the fight. The odd thing here is, as numbers go up, the mutaling becomes more and more effective due to glaive bouncing.

You can do this all the way into 4 bases and hive tech, then switch to ultras and finish the game.

nublet

United States10 Posts

August 14 2010 04:54 GMT

#80

When I am fighting a zerg who doesn't build roaches I am able to build 4 hellions with infernal upgrade, put them in a drop ship, and roast all his drones in his main before he gets his mutas out. Second, when a zerg tries to muta contain me I just expand as usual and use dropships to move my thors to my expos when he tries to muta harass. They arrive to defend before mutas can kill off the turrets. This way I am able to use my expos to keep my thor production even to their muta count. Thor drop can also be used to deny zerg from further expos.

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