EPT[G] kcdc's PvT FE - Page 65
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zyglrox
United States1168 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On January 23 2011 12:09 travis wrote: it's possible im wrong but i still insist it's a terrible idea to risk 1, maybe even 2 of ur initial 3 units to find out what tech path he is choosing. u desperately need those units to hold a fast attack, as i said before i poke with my probe but as my initial point was, that doesn't necessarily give u the information you need. attacking with units will but my point was that's a big risk. if you don't think that's a risk then maybe ur just the greatest player ever at holding fast pressure with 1gatefe play, but i doubt it. you probably just don't know what you're talking about. I often poke with my first zealot and stalker. In most spawns, T has to start a tech lab after the first marine and immediately start conc shell to get it done before your stalker arrives. If you're doing it blind, I'd say you get punished by conc shell about 15% of the time. Most of the time, they'll be teching or expanding or starting stim first since it takes longer. It's a risk that can be worth taking since you'll get free marines about as often as you lose your zealot and you always get useful scouting info. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On January 23 2011 12:51 zyglrox wrote: i don't remember saying it wasn't a risk? i actually agreed with you on that point in my last point. maybe you would've realized that if you weren't so hellbent on saying i'm completely wrong and retarded. i guess it's just more of a preference thing as I'm the opposite of aggressive with these units unless i get there before a bunker or something similar. probe would do almost as well, and with less of a risk but not opportunity for damage if you scout an opening unless you have your stuff sitting at his natural or something. maybe i'm not explaining my point clearly enough because i hardly ever lose any of the 3 units while scouting. wtf? i never said you were retarded or anything like that, I think you're a little overly defensive. I was just arguing a point because I thought I was right. I was never impolite, unlike you saying "thanks for the laugh" as an entire post. | ||
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shenzu88
48 Posts
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shenzu88
48 Posts
On January 23 2011 05:12 iChau wrote: Yeah, the most STANDARD builds are better than this build. That's obviously why Minigun uses this build against every damn Terran he plays against.. You lose a zealot, he loses 2 marines. Good trade. You delayed a push by a nice while. Of course the initial two units doesn't kill all the units at the ramp. That's a really ignorant statement. Why would a zealot+stalker finish the game? *facepalm* The longer you delay his MM push, the better, and you can do that by trading the 1st zealot. You can EASILY run your stalker away if you suspect that you're going to lose. Also, you usually should bring a probe along to tank damage and to allow you to have a better escaping chance. Please don't assume things so quickly. Minigun doesn't always use this build every match up. I never said it would finish the game.. I'm not assuming things like someone.. and saying they're ignorant... With the current trends of teching to raven pushes/banshees/tanks, I've found it's way more safe to do the initial poke with the zealot + stalker. 80% of the time I'm confronted with 4 marines at least at the ramp. Still a good opportunity to soften up those marines. KCDC is right again, concussive first off of one marine + tech lab is becoming much more rare today. This build is good, but depending on position and maps. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On January 23 2011 14:46 kcdc wrote: I often poke with my first zealot and stalker. In most spawns, T has to start a tech lab after the first marine and immediately start conc shell to get it done before your stalker arrives. If you're doing it blind, I'd say you get punished by conc shell about 15% of the time. Most of the time, they'll be teching or expanding or starting stim first since it takes longer. It's a risk that can be worth taking since you'll get free marines about as often as you lose your zealot and you always get useful scouting info. Why do you even need to take this risk? Just keep scouting his main with your initial probe to see if he builds 2nd rine or adds a tech lab after first rine. Or, check his ramp with your scouting probe to see if there's 1 rine or 2-3 rines at the appropriate timing. | ||
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LiMs
15 Posts
On January 23 2011 15:37 Anihc wrote: Why do you even need to take this risk? Just keep scouting his main with your initial probe to see if he builds 2nd rine or adds a tech lab after first rine. Or, check his ramp with your scouting probe to see if there's 1 rine or 2-3 rines at the appropriate timing. I agree with this to a certain extent but most terrans will be able to kill your probe before you see their tech. Also, I think the 1 zealot, 1 stalker poke immediately sets off alarm bells to the terran that you are FEing and encourages them to all-in slightly more. It's very hard in my opinion to find a balance between the two and I'm not sure which pattern is best. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On January 23 2011 15:37 Anihc wrote: Why do you even need to take this risk? Just keep scouting his main with your initial probe to see if he builds 2nd rine or adds a tech lab after first rine. Or, check his ramp with your scouting probe to see if there's 1 rine or 2-3 rines at the appropriate timing. I do try to do that. A marine at the bottom of the ramp can prevent you from getting the information you need tho. I try to pick up clues to gauge the risk that he'll have conc shell when my poke arrives. How close are our positions? (Closer is better for the poke) Is the barracks on time? Was another marine started as the first chased my probe away? Is the barracks in a position where it would have to lift to start a tech lab? Can I poke up the ramp to see if there's a 2nd marine losing my probe. I would favor risking my zealot blindly over suiciding a probe tho. The probe is an automatic loss of 50 minerals, while the zealot is a chance of a loss of 100 minerals that has a chance of killing T's units. If your opponent knows the poke is coming, however, it will fail miserably, so even if you think it's a good gamble, you can't do it too regularly against the same opponent. Also, even if you don't plan to poke up the ramp, it's often a good idea to move out into the map and check T's natural. If you see the 2 marauder + 1 marine poke, back up and defend. Terrans can be very greedy starting a CC at their natural at ~22 food, and if they get bunkers up, it will be difficult to punish. Having the zealot+stalker at least check in for these greedy builds will allow you to punish them effectively. | ||
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Anomandaris
Afghanistan440 Posts
Here is a replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/130314-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns Any comments would be appreciated! (3,1 k master btw) | ||
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kyneS
United States44 Posts
I was wondering for unit composition if you scout that he's going heavy on barracks units, MM, should I go mostly zealot/stalker? with 1 or 2 at most sentry? I've seen people go stalker sentry successfully and split up the terran MM force in 2, (i would think this is map dependent if you can get a choke and split near your natural). And also vs a timing push of marine/banshee/raven, I find personally that the best way of holding is to cut probes to make several gates and go stalker/zealot heavy and use robo only for observer purposes until you hold. Is this in your experience the most efficient way of holding? or is there a better way. And a strategy that gives me alot of trouble on linear maps is the slow push with tanks raven (terran opens up with a few marines, and denies you scouting with a probe and then follows with expo + 2 more racks, then he pushes out with a tank raven and marine heavy army with a couple marauder). I know how to beat it is to just have proper macro and to engage tanks away from your base to delay their push while you can flank or drop their natural/main. However, often times what kills me is by the time I have the army and confidence to leave my base, the terran tank army is already at my natural and i'm stuck, and its gg. How do you scout to avoid being stuck in base (forward probe @ xelnaga and on patrol?)? I'm thinking it might be worth it to try to sentry stalker contain if you suspect a slow push with tanks. | ||
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Shifft
Canada1085 Posts
Against marine/banshee/raven I think the best way to deal with it is either fast tech to colossus after your expo with a LOT of stalkers to get through PDD OR tech to phoenixes and make mostly zealots. Phoenixes are my preferred method if you scout it early enough, typically the way it will play out is that your zealots will kill his marines and then get slaughtered by banshees while your phoenixes clean up, then you can fly to his base and pick up marines (he won't have many left) and pick off starport units as they spawn. | ||
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revy
United States1524 Posts
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FenneK
France1231 Posts
On January 26 2011 02:27 Shifft wrote: If you 1 gate FE your second gas is super delayed so you won't have enough sentries with enough energy to deal effectively with MM pushes. In this case I think it's better to deal with them with about 1:1 zealots:stalkers and 1 sentry early on for guardian shield with an immortal as soon as you can. Against marine/banshee/raven I think the best way to deal with it is either fast tech to colossus after your expo with a LOT of stalkers to get through PDD OR tech to phoenixes and make mostly zealots. Phoenixes are my preferred method if you scout it early enough, typically the way it will play out is that your zealots will kill his marines and then get slaughtered by banshees while your phoenixes clean up, then you can fly to his base and pick up marines (he won't have many left) and pick off starport units as they spawn. Dunno about the phoenixes, PDD works on them too and marines with Stim (not sure if that upgrade is feasible with this build, so this is kind of theoretical) would just dance around the zealots and make mince of the Phoenixes. That push is a bitch to hold. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On January 26 2011 06:34 FenneK wrote: Dunno about the phoenixes, PDD works on them too and marines with Stim (not sure if that upgrade is feasible with this build, so this is kind of theoretical) would just dance around the zealots and make mince of the Phoenixes. That push is a bitch to hold. Phoenixes burn through PDD energy more than 2x as fast as stalkers, and do 2x as much DPS as stalkers vs light (banshees). That said you won't really get enough phoenixes out in time to make much of a difference when this push usually hits if you 1-gate FE. Phoenixes are definitely viable if you were 1-basing however, i.e. you 1-gate robo and scout it, you can then toss down a stargate and go zealot/sentry/phoenix and destroy this push. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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Hane
France210 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On January 27 2011 15:32 Hane wrote: any tips to stop (blue) hellion harass ? Against Terran, it's good practice to wall off the far sides (ends that face outward away from the other mineral line) of your mineral lines. You want to leave the close sides open so that you can quickly get in to deal with drops, but by closing off the far sides, it limits the space that hellions have to run around and makes them much easier to surround. If you see the blue flame upgrade, you'll want at least 1 cannon at each mineral line as well. You'll probably want 2+ cannons at far away expansions. I often forget to do this at the start of games, but if mech becomes more popular, I'm sure I'll get better about it. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
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Nihilite
Netherlands61 Posts
On January 26 2011 02:18 kyneS wrote: Hi KCDC, or anyone else that may answer this question, I was wondering for unit composition if you scout that he's going heavy on barracks units, MM, should I go mostly zealot/stalker? with 1 or 2 at most sentry? I've seen people go stalker sentry successfully and split up the terran MM force in 2, (i would think this is map dependent if you can get a choke and split near your natural). And also vs a timing push of marine/banshee/raven, I find personally that the best way of holding is to cut probes to make several gates and go stalker/zealot heavy and use robo only for observer purposes until you hold. Is this in your experience the most efficient way of holding? or is there a better way. And a strategy that gives me alot of trouble on linear maps is the slow push with tanks raven (terran opens up with a few marines, and denies you scouting with a probe and then follows with expo + 2 more racks, then he pushes out with a tank raven and marine heavy army with a couple marauder). I know how to beat it is to just have proper macro and to engage tanks away from your base to delay their push while you can flank or drop their natural/main. However, often times what kills me is by the time I have the army and confidence to leave my base, the terran tank army is already at my natural and i'm stuck, and its gg. How do you scout to avoid being stuck in base (forward probe @ xelnaga and on patrol?)? I'm thinking it might be worth it to try to sentry stalker contain if you suspect a slow push with tanks. I'll answer this to my experience: - MM pushes (3 rax?) are usually better dealt with with a zealot/stalker force, you should know that zealots are, unless kited, cost effective versus both marines and marauders (marines become cost effective versus zealots in a large ball, but they won't have that off 1 base). You'll want to basically snipe off his units with your stalkers, while he's kiting your zealots. If they die reinforce zealots and continue the sniping, if he still has too much bring probes to tank untill you have more stalkers then he has marauders, by then usually you should be fine with having your stalkers clean up. Also do (very important) get one sentry for Guardian Shield. (Just to clarify; you'll be pretty low on gas when doing a 1gate FE so that's why you'll want zeal/stalker instead of zeal/sentry). - Marine/Banshee/Raven push has been discussed alot in this thread, it's one of the hardest builds to be able to hold as 1 gate FE (atleast, most people seem to have trouble with it). I don't have a definite answer for this as I've only played against it once, I used a just gateway unit army with 2 observers (you'll probably want 2 just to be safe vs any obs sniping) to hold it, tho I only just managed. Other people have been saying phoenix are the way to go, but you'll probably have to find out for yourself what suits you. - Against any expo build you should use the delayed time it takes for them to push to get tech up yourself, vs tank/marine the best thing you can get are simply collosus (with range), which don't take too long to get either way. Remember tanks are literally power in numbers, just one or two tanks won't hurt your gateway units, but 4+ will blast through your stalkers insanely fast, if the terran pushes with only 1 or 2 tanks just try to engage him (assuming your force is atleast as big as his) regardless of wether you have collosus or not. If he get's 4-5+ tanks you'll need to have 2 collosus out by that time to hold. Trying to use sentry's to contain a terran who has siege tanks won't work, they'll simply blast your sentry's from up their ramp. If you are having trouble spotting when their army moves out, there's 2 ways of doing this: - Observer over his army or right outside his base incase he has a raven. - If he snipes all your observers take atleast the watchtower closest to your base (a decent terran will simply fight and take the watchtower nearest to his base). | ||
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Ravaginho
Germany5 Posts
The problem of this build is that you are blind for a very long time. Good terrans wont let you scout what they are doing. To defend against early pushes you need to cut a lot of probes but to keep up with an in-base expansion build of the T you need a good eco. The problem is that you dont know if T expands or not until your second observer arrives at his base. The first observer must stay at your base to be safe against cloaked banshees. This build is very very hard to do properly because there is just so much that can kill you if you dont pay close attention. If you are scarred all the time of the various all-ins and cut too many probes you have a disadvantage against expansion builds. However, on cross positions the build is still very good because you are safer against T all ins and you dont need to cut so many probes. | ||
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