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The fast upgrading style has gotten more common indeed - I have to say I really like it, because it completely screws with the Terran's head. He goes in the fight thinking "hah, I got 4 medivacs, no way his gateway-units will be able to do something now without colossi", then he meets up with 2/2 gateway-units and gets spanked or at the very least doesn't own through my units like he is used to.
Still I like the style of iamke55 more because it's a bit more stable. You get colossi and force vikings. Once terran has sufficient vikings to nullify the colossi you have templar. What kcdc didn't acknowledge in his previous post, and where I hence agree with iamke55, is that vikings don't do much until their count is high enough. I go into fights against 4 vikings really comfortably, because at the time his 4 vikings will have killed my 2-3 colossi....his ground army is dead. Since my transition into templar and my 3rd base are on route, I don't need colossi anymore anyways. Colossi are there to establish a 3rd base while surpassing the critical window where gateway-units don't cut it against mass-MMM anymore. Many toss players seem to believe that you have to do damage with your first colossi, when really you only need them for a transition.
GSL SPOILER:
+ Show Spoiler +This is exactly what happened in MC vs Nada. MC built "some" colossi, but a bit later than the usual NEXGenius-toss-style, also he got his TC up earlier and after Nada had cleaned up the colossi, he was already confronted with charge, blink and storm. I love this way of teching, getting colossi later but HTs earlier while not completely forgoing the colossi.
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I used to use this build every game, but I don't like it much anymore. There are a few reasons why...
vs fast rushes: Terrans have gotten much better at judging the number of SCVs they need to pull to do damage. If they get a fast tech lab and bring some SCVs with their first poke, you will have a very hard time defending. Also, builds like TSLRain's tank rush are devastating when your robo is delayed this much.
vs standard macro play: the delayed 2nd gas means you won't have the colossus and sentry count needed to combat a huge bio ball. You will have to pick between colossi and sentries instead of having both.
vs mvp's hellion build: your army is very zealot-heavy due to the late 2nd gas. This means blue flame hellions are incredibly effective vs your army, whereas they're usually only effective against probes.
I now use Genius' safe build as my standard opening and it seems to solve all of those problems.
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I personally still dont think this is much of a real build
If you can do this build, basically you can only really do it if you arn't closepos
Id much rather just do 15 nexus than this build if you are going to take the same gamble, since 15 nex defends so much easier and better
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I still use 1 gate FE almost every game vs T. I'm currently at about 3100 Masters for what that's worth. iamke55 is probably a touch better than I am, but I'd imagine we play a lot of the same players on ladder. 1 gate FE isn't an auto-win by any means, but it's possible to defend every timing attack I've run into. (Some all-ins require you to sac your natural, but you can hold your ramp and still be ahead). You have to prepare in different ways for various timing attacks, so it can be tricky to have the right defense at the right time. There are subtle scouting clues that can help you prepare correctly, but good players can be creative and surprise you.
Anyway, this is definitely still a strong opening that, if played well, can win you a lot of PvT's at any level of the ladder. I'll agree with iamke55 that blue flame hellions are really scary tho.
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any kind of early drop/multi harass is hard to defend imo.
But i still use this build too and i love it. Thx to minigun's streaming too ^^
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i've consistantly beaten this build (including kcdc) using tank marine push with micro.. even on big maps
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I've been preferring the double gas gate-robo-gate expand as well lately, just seems infinitely easier to hold off all kinds of all-ins and it doesn't really delay your nexus for THAT long, only like 6-8 food. The best thing about it though is that you get 3-4 sentries super early so they'll all have a ton of energy for any push that will come in. One of the big weak points of 1 gate expand (at least in my opinion) is that with your second gas delayed for so long it becomes a bit hard to get sentries in your army while you're trying to tech to colossus or templar, so getting a few out early is very beneficial.
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I am kind of straying away from this on small to medium size maps like Delta and LT because people are inventing much better all-ins. IMMvP style SCV pulls are just devastating, and now after his GSL match vs tester they are more popular than ever before. marine/tank/SCV tends to feel unbeatable. At my level of diamond terrans just seem to be random all-in machines on most maps so i am starting to play 2-3gate robo builds that are good at scouting and blocking all-ins.
On the flip side, it's still great against players who's play-style you know is not all-in based. I played some games on crossfire with a terran friend who i knew well and the rush distance made a significant difference as i was able to actually do something when i scouted something. Maybe when larger maps are more popular this build will truly shine. Marine tank does not seem to be all that effected by the map size though.
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On January 21 2011 02:23 Gecko wrote:
I am kind of straying away from this on small to medium size maps like Delta and LT because people are inventing much better all-ins. IMMvP style SCV pulls are just devastating, and now after his GSL match vs tester they are more popular than ever before. marine/tank/SCV tends to feel unbeatable. At my level of diamond terrans just seem to be random all-in machines on most maps so i am starting to play 2-3gate robo builds that are good at scouting and blocking all-ins.
On the flip side, it's still great against players who's play-style you know is not all-in based. I played some games on crossfire with a terran friend who i knew well and the rush distance made a significant difference as i was able to actually do something when i scouted something. Maybe when larger maps are more popular this build will truly shine. Marine tank does not seem to be all that effected by the map size though.
Yeah I stopped using this build on DQ, the natural is just too wide open. Non-close positions on LT this is pretty good on since the choke at the natural is a lot easier to defend. Still though, unless the map favors FE'ing a lot like Jungle Basin, I too have been steering away from this and favoring aggressive 4-gate or stargate openers, or just the standard robo. IMO it is actually safer being the early aggressor and reacting based on what you see from your pushes rather than trying to play such a passive macro style since there are so many different kinds of 1-base pushes terrans can do.
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On January 20 2011 21:22 iamke55 wrote:
Also, builds like TSLRain's tank rush are devastating when your robo is delayed this much.
vs mvp's hellion build: your army is very zealot-heavy due to the late 2nd gas. This means blue flame hellions are incredibly effective vs your army, whereas they're usually only effective against probes.
You are definitely a better player than I am, but why would you NOT get an early 2nd gas and an early robo vs tech-builds? There is only one map where you can't get the necessary intel and that's jungle basin. On this map you can't determine if T goes 1/1/1 tech with bunker, or FE with bunker. But on each and every other map you can send a probe up his ramp once your first stalker is out and in 95% of the cases you'll encounter 1.) either a marauder or 2.) a bunker filled with marines, a bunker in construction or just marines (remaining 5% is weird and crazy shit like makarax, hidden expo and such). In the 2nd case you can use a stalker for scouting, or do the zealot/stalker poke to maybe kill a marine or a pulled scv. If you've confirmed your assumption, then you can get your 2nd AND 3rd gas immediately (maybe even 4th, not sure though), and you can go 1 gate robo into 3 gates, adding the gates one by one.
Adding the other gates "blindly" after the expo before the robo isn't really necessary imo, or would you say that there is one terran tech-build that could punish a 1 gate expo into quick robo?
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I never play DQ, but DQ is absolutely a bad map for 1 gate FE. Steppes is also a bad map for it because it's almost impossible to stop tank all-ins. And Igy, the only person I've consistently had trouble holding all-ins from uses the bnet ID MattDamon, and I have been able to hold that all-in recently. Tank marine all-ins aren't that bad to hold unless you've invested too much into tech/economy. The answer to tank+marine is T1 zealots. It just a matter of cutting the right amount of tech/econ so that you have enough zealots.
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On January 20 2011 20:42 sleepingdog wrote:
The fast upgrading style has gotten more common indeed - I have to say I really like it, because it completely screws with the Terran's head. He goes in the fight thinking "hah, I got 4 medivacs, no way his gateway-units will be able to do something now without colossi", then he meets up with 2/2 gateway-units and gets spanked or at the very least doesn't own through my units like he is used to.
Well thats of course only gonna work for so long because good terrans could just take a look at what upgrades your units have.
On January 20 2011 21:25 BrTarolg wrote:
I personally still dont think this is much of a real build
If you can do this build, basically you can only really do it if you arn't closepos
Id much rather just do 15 nexus than this build if you are going to take the same gamble, since 15 nex defends so much easier and better
Correct way to do it vs T is 16 nexus not 15 I think.
At least thats how mana does it, 16 nexus, 16 gate, 16 pylon.
On January 20 2011 21:22 iamke55 wrote:
I now use Genius' safe build as my standard opening and it seems to solve all of those problems.
what does he do? gate, robo gate?
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On January 21 2011 03:03 kcdc wrote:
I never play DQ, but DQ is absolutely a bad map for 1 gate FE. Steppes is also a bad map for it because it's almost impossible to stop tank all-ins. And Igy, the only person I've consistently had trouble holding all-ins from uses the bnet ID MattDamon, and I have been able to hold that all-in recently. Tank marine all-ins aren't that bad to hold unless you've invested too much into tech/economy. The answer to tank+marine is T1 zealots. It just a matter of cutting the right amount of tech/econ so that you have enough zealots.
Got any replays of you holding off MattDamon's build? I lost 1-3 to him in the final of a tournament which convinced me that the level of execution a 1 gate expo needs to stop his all-in is beyond what I can produce on a consistent basis.
sleepingdog: I haven't tested too much with robo before 4th gate, but I used to get a robo on 38 supply when gong 1 gate expo. It's a timing that gets an observer just in time for cloaked banshees. If you can find a robo timing that lets you beat TSLRain's tank rush or anything similar, then more power to you, but I'm still unconvinced about stopping any kind of SCV-pulling shenanigans with such a low sentry count.
7mk: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=182561
Basically you still get a pretty fast expo, but you can spend most of your chrono boosts on probes and you have a much higher sentry count. You also have the option to tech to colossus very soon after expanding, if your observer sees that the terran went for a fast expo.
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United States8476 Posts
Matt only allins you if you do an early expand btw.
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On January 21 2011 04:51 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 03:03 kcdc wrote:
I never play DQ, but DQ is absolutely a bad map for 1 gate FE. Steppes is also a bad map for it because it's almost impossible to stop tank all-ins. And Igy, the only person I've consistently had trouble holding all-ins from uses the bnet ID MattDamon, and I have been able to hold that all-in recently. Tank marine all-ins aren't that bad to hold unless you've invested too much into tech/economy. The answer to tank+marine is T1 zealots. It just a matter of cutting the right amount of tech/econ so that you have enough zealots. Got any replays of you holding off MattDamon's build? I lost 1-3 to him in the final of a tournament which convinced me that the level of execution a 1 gate expo needs to stop his all-in is beyond what I can produce on a consistent basis.
I don't have any saved, but the solution I've come up with is pretty basic to describe. I after my nexus, I get my 2nd and 3rd gates and then my robo. When my nexus finishes, I transfer my probes and I send one of my transfer probes to T's natural. It will reach the natural about when a macro Terran will take his natural. If I don't see signs of an expo, I get 2 more gates immediately and pump zealots. If there's still no expo soon, I get a 6th gate and completely cut probes for zealot/stalker production.
It winds up being really close, but I've come out on top recently. His all-in is the strongest one I've run into so far.
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On January 21 2011 05:17 4kmonk wrote:
Matt only allins you if you do an early expand btw.
Which is every game if 1 gate FE is the only PvT build you use....
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On January 21 2011 05:40 kcdc wrote:
I don't have any saved, but the solution I've come up with is pretty basic to describe.
Hi Kcdc, I really like your guide! I'm quite new to SC2, only played just over a month, and PvT is my worst protoss match up  .
Do you have any replays of you doing PvT on some different maps at all that are recent? What i'm really after is seeing some basics like building placement and unit composition and scout timing to detect different strategy.
On a side note, have you ever face the 9min 2Thor+marine timing push? It's crazy, I have a training partner who does it on me and the only way I can stop it if I don't build specifically to counter it (ie get a robo and observer to check for it before countering) is to get DT and scatter them across the map between our bases, and I can only barely get them in time after scouting with the observer.
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one thing i have been doing to remove the tell of having only 1 gas is to get both gases right before i make my core, but only put 2 probes in each geyser. i can still throw down my nexus before the 5 minute mark while chronoboosting stalkers, getting warpgates on time, and i just feel a lot safer overall.
i go pylon, 13/14gate, pylon, then at about 18 or 19 supply throw down the gases and the core. i guess if you wanted to be really inconspicuous you could put the first gas down earlier and mine it with 2 probes, then throw down the second one, but i prefer to have those probes mining minerals early on so i can save up for the nexus faster. you can still chrono a zealot out before the core finishes, and your stalker is not delayed either.
i dont like adding sentries in very early which is why i don't stick with a more gas heavy opener, but i can see the viability of doing so on some maps like jungle basin, shakuras or LT where you have a small choke to defend with.
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United States1168 Posts
i think you need at least a couple early sentries to build up energy.
i was gonna make a thread, but then i remembered this thread so i'll just post in here.
i use this build religiously, but there seems to be a few holes i think i can patch up to make my mid game transition stronger.
first, when do you guys add more gateways? after watching numerous replays it seems that your natural starts really kicking around 9 minutes or so, but i usually just add them when my money can't be kept low on 3 gates + 1 robo or 4 gates. it seems at this point is when my macro is the worst then once i get everything situated . second, there is a point where i am using no chronoboost at all. it's during the early stages because while producing probes you really can't afford to chrono your gates. aside from the occasional probe or immortal chronoboosts would it just be better to have 1 less gate and just constantly chrono them? i should probably go test it out to see. once i have my tech and natural saturated using chrono is no prob its just that period of like 6-9 minutes i've noticed my chrono slipping in most of my replays.
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I think it can be hard to beat 2starport banshee with this build if they don't make a bunker at their ramp. Have to anticipate they might try to bring rax aggression so u have to delay ur obs a bit. then ur obs comes out and if u send it their banshee gets there and messes you up. if you keep it u can delay the banshee harrass but u don't know it's 2port and i think we all know how gateway units do vs 2port banshee when u don't have any phoenixes. especially if they throw in a raven.
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EPT
