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On December 20 2010 10:12 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2010 05:40 kcdc wrote:On December 19 2010 02:02 iamke55 wrote:On December 19 2010 01:12 kcdc wrote:On December 19 2010 00:24 SaJa wrote:
So what's the best way to do when we see Terran making FE with full rax ?
I make fast ht on 3 gates+1 robo ? Oo I'm not sure what the best response is against a Terran that safely expands and goes bio. Hopefully some good players will chime in with their responses. My personal thought process on 1-gate FE vs FE bio T is that well-controlled gateway units--particularly zealots--are strong against bio in smaller food counts, but become very weak as the food counts get higher. Zealots take forever to kill for MM if you manage to prevent kiting with a couple good forcefields, zealots can clean up 10-30 food in MM pretty easily. As the food counts grow, however, zealots get less surface area to attack, they take more damage before they get in range, and the ball of MM is bigger so you can only FF behind the front couple lines of units meaning that even when you get your FFs down, you lose a lot of your zealots to kill a quarter of his bio. A one-base T either has to attack early with ~10-30 food of MM to prevent you from taking advantage or if he attacks later with a larger army, your economy will allow you to have a larger force with much stronger reinforcements. A two-base T can afford to wait until his MM hits the critical mass where gateway units don't pose a threat. IMO, against a FE T, P has to either mass gateways without tech and try kill the expo quickly or tech to AoE damage quickly. I used to try to rush storm, but I found there were a lot of games where I'd get storm just a little too late. Now I go quickly to collosi, but I'm not sure what the best timing for that is. If you go for collosi, you definitely want to get 2+ collosi with range and do damage before they have many vikings, but I don't know the best way to get there. Do any good players have thoughts on how many gates you want to produce out while getting your collosi and range? I've found myself cutting production from my first 3 gates to get my collosi really fast, and that seems to hit the right timing before they have more than a couple vikings, but the resulting army is too small. I've also tried being aggressive with 5 gates and teching slowly to collosi, but there, the collosi seem too late. I'm guessing that constant production out of 3 or 4 gates will be the way to go, but I haven't optimized it. You'll also want to consider your timings for your 2nd, 3rd and 4th assimilators as more gas will speed up the collosi tech, but will reduce your gateway unit count. Don't think of it in terms of "I must get colossus before he can produce vikings!" Instead, look at it this way: he won't even build vikings until he actually sees your robotics bay, so there's no rush to tech that hard. What I usually do is make a robo around 40 food off of 4 gates, take 2nd and 3rd gas immediately after, and then add the robo bay once my robo is done. Getting the 4th gas too early makes your ground army too stalker/sentry heavy, so I usually don't build it until I want to start upgrading from a forge. Once you have a couple colossus out, it's safe to take a third base. That is around when a twilight council and 2 more gates are added. Charge should be researched immediately. Once you're actually mining from the third base and have 6 gas, that's a good time to add the templar archives and another 2 gates. The general idea is to tech/expand in a way that minimizes the timing windows when you aren't producing gateway units. Here's a replay of me doing this vs a top 100 terran ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-174810.jpg) I have to disagree with you on the window where collosi are good. Good Terran players know the timing when collosi will be a threat and will have a starport+reactor ready to go at that time. They won't mass produce vikings until they see your collosi tech, but they'll be actively scouting an ready to ramp up production whenever necessary. That means you have to either hide the fact that you're making collosi or make use of your collosi before he can match you with adequate vikings. Expanding slows down T's tech as much as it does yours. I think it's a good idea to try to hit a timing window where he's unlikely to be able to have sufficient vikings rather than relying on him making a mistake and being surprised that you did something standard. This doesn't make any sense... do you really think you can rely on hitting a good terran with a timing window when they don't have vikings yet? Hoping the terran doesn't scout your tech-rush is the definition of "relying on him making a mistake"! Sure you can sneak some wins against terrans by hiding your colossus tech, but you're trading early game safety for that, and on top of that you're taking the risk that your opponent is actually good and just makes vikings earlier than normal when he figures out what you're doing. If you want to hit a timing window where you have colossi and the terran doesn't have vikings, it should be because you scouted a build that you know has a late starport, or you gained an early game advantage that delays terran's tech, not because you hope he doesn't scout well. On another note, I found a terran rush that seems almost impossible to stop with a fast expo: 18 marines, 2 banshees, 3 tanks, and 10 SCVs at 9 minutes on metalopolis cross position, so even earlier on smaller maps and closer positions. http://replayfu.com/r/427Jzn
You don't have to hit before he has vikings. You just have to hit before he has a good sized MM army and 6 vikings. I'm saying you want to timing push at completion of range, and you want to time your range so that you have at least 2 collosi and he doesn't have many vikings. I think that can be done.
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On December 20 2010 10:12 iamke55 wrote:On another note, I found a terran rush that seems almost impossible to stop with a fast expo: 18 marines, 2 banshees, 3 tanks, and 10 SCVs at 9 minutes on metalopolis cross position, so even earlier on smaller maps and closer positions. http://replayfu.com/r/427Jzn
Have you tried getting 15 zealots, 4 stalkers and a sentry?
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You can sometimes do a timing push with 2-3 colossi before there are a ton of vikings out, but I don't see the point of taking that risk when you're not afraid of terran's lategame, and gateway/colossus does pretty decent against MMM/viking even if you do miss the timing window when they don't have many vikings.
I had 9 zealots, 5 stalkers, and a sentry, with 400 minerals in the bank and an immortal building in my robo. So I could squeeze out maybe 6 more gateway units if I had perfect chrono boosts and didn't get the immortal. That would come out to maybe 14 zealots, 6 stalkers, and a sentry. If you can figure out a way to get more units than that at 9 minutes, then I'm changing my build immediately!
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the way i look at it is colossus just makes teching to templar easier. colossus are great when they come out but once the viking show up it gets tough. that and a colossus ball makes you vulnerable to drops and just immobile in general. they're great units don't get me wrong and probably a key unit in pvt, but i think templar tech is the main goal. once you get the amulet lategame toss instantly becomes super potent. not that templars do so much more damage than colossi, but it's the mobility thing. if you're getting dropped some chargelots and a ht can clean it up, and you don't risk getting completely out of position with your main army. getting out of position just asks for a dozen marauders to stim in and snipe a nexus or important tech buildings. for me colossus is just a step in the order of things to go for in my pvt. generally i start getting colossus after i have my gateway situation strong. which is usually 4-5 gateways and twilight or/and forge upgrading them. it really depends on what your scouting and what he's throwing at you though. after my colossi tech is going my next goal is getting a 3rd up and then to templar. after that it's upgrades and maybe going back to colossi once the vikings are gone, or going some late game stargate tech. i find myself getting more immortals late game as templar deals great aoe.
just my 2 cents and easier said than done.
the only push that's has consistently given me trouble has been a thor rush with strike cannons. other than that if i lose it's usually me just making a dumb mistake or losing a key battle cause of a mistake. strike cannons 1 shot immortals and i'm not sure what gateway units are better. initially i think zealots but i don't encounter this build enough to really get a grasp.
edit: just wanted to throw this in. couple games i scouted him going vikings blind and just opted for immortals and upgraded gateway to get my 3rd up and went templar then. the terran 2 rax expo'd which i think is a pretty good answer to the 1 gate expo, i just got my obs in his base and saw vikings coming out and as i go late colossi i just ditched it.
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http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/119941-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis
I had to get 2 obs because of the threat of cloak banshees and just didn't have enough to stop the push when he pulled 15 scvs. The build he went was 1-1-1 into 2 additional rax.
The other build that is extremely hard to stop even in far positions, and imo seems impossible in close positions, is the 4 rax ghost mm off of 1 base. The terran often pulls scvs in that push as well.
Any advice as to what I could have done would be appreciated.
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On December 25 2010 06:52 Chronopolis wrote:http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/119941-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolisI had to get 2 obs because of the threat of cloak banshees and just didn't have enough to stop the push when he pulled 15 scvs. The build he went was 1-1-1 into 2 additional rax. The other build that is extremely hard to stop even in far positions, and imo seems impossible in close positions, is the 4 rax ghost mm off of 1 base. The terran often pulls scvs in that push as well. Any advice as to what I could have done would be appreciated.
As far as I know, if T does a 1 base allin with scv pull you pretty much can't hold it unless you played 100% optimally and pulled all your probes down in the fight. I've never seen the 4 rax ghost/mm push, but I do know that bio/ghost is unstoppable without colossus or a really large chargelot army (and scvs mess them up). I think that might be holdable if you rush colossus after the expo. As for 1/1/1 allins - you cannot hold them consistently if scvs are pulled. IMO they break this build.
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I have been using this build the past few weeks and I absolutely love it! I lose sometimes to rallied marauders or early stim pushes but they are getting less frequent as I learn to deal with them. I usually get 5 warpgates with 2 forges unless I think banshees are coming. I like getting charge and 2/2 very fast because most of my opponents stay on 1 base a bit too long so I am getting my 3rd when they are finally expanding. With charge and 2/2 and 40 more food a gateway army stomps the average mm stim attack. After that it is easy to tech up to templar and 3/3.
Thanks for this really great build, kcdc. It is very effective and a hell of a lot of fun.
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There is one small thing I have been wondering about. After throwing down the Nexus, in which order to you build the extra gates, the robo, the pylon and the assimilator? I usually let myself be "supplyblocked" at 34 to throw down pylon, gate, gate, gas, robo in that order, and then resume probe production as the pylon finishes, which happens to be timed pretty well. In close air I usually throw the robo down before the second gate if I did not scout marauders/anything else that slows down cloaked banshee tech.
Furthermore, I usually transition into Phoenix/Colossus play once/if the terran gets his expansion up. It leaves a smaller timing window than templar tech, feels more dropproof (I really prefer phoenices over blink and HTs for that) and lets me harass without having to use the imo awkward warp prism. Do you think that this is a good gameplan or is it better to go into Phoenix/Colossus from some kind of stargate opening?
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Assuming a 28nexus:
32gate,
33pylon
34gas
35robo
35gate
You cant support constantly production if you drop the 3 gates successively, so there's barely any gain from doing so.
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On December 20 2010 10:36 iamke55 wrote:
You can sometimes do a timing push with 2-3 colossi before there are a ton of vikings out, but I don't see the point of taking that risk when you're not afraid of terran's lategame, and gateway/colossus does pretty decent against MMM/viking even if you do miss the timing window when they don't have many vikings.
I had 9 zealots, 5 stalkers, and a sentry, with 400 minerals in the bank and an immortal building in my robo. So I could squeeze out maybe 6 more gateway units if I had perfect chrono boosts and didn't get the immortal. That would come out to maybe 14 zealots, 6 stalkers, and a sentry. If you can figure out a way to get more units than that at 9 minutes, then I'm changing my build immediately!
How many gas did you take? IMO, zealots are the key to holding most all-ins, so I skimp on gas if I suspect an all-in that isn't 2-port banshees. 14 zealots, 6 stalkers and a sentry sounds like it should hold that push if you catch the tanks unsieged tho. If you make him slow-push across the map, you'll obviously have more time to get your immortal count up.
I don't know. You might grab a practice partner and test what works. Then let us know.
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I think the reponse to the all-in depends on what the scouting probe or zealot//stalker notice. If you scout a barracks all-in, then throw up a ton of gateways. If you scout a 1-base banshee/raven play then you need a stargate for phoenix and Void Rays.
Holding off a 1-1-1 all-in can be stopped by 4 gates, 1 robo (for obs), and 1 stargate while pulling probes. Make 1 phoenix then 1 Void Ray then 1 phoenix, focus on zealots as kcdc said, and make sure you have killer force fields (as all Protoss should have). Even if you lose every single goddamn probe at your natural, you are still 1 base ahead of him, i.e. you win in the long run.
I do this build in every single PvT and I've only lost to early pressure once, and that was before I did the zeal//stalker poke and knew how to react properly to all-ins. I can honestly say I don't lose to 1-base Terran play from this build; the proper responce from the Terrans honestly is to expand with the Protoss player.
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is this the go to build again after the repair nerf?
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On December 25 2010 16:58 Jayrod wrote:
is this the go to build again after the repair nerf?
Was it ever "not" viable? Nobody said this is the one perfect build that wins 100% of the time - it's "another" very viable build for the PvT-strategy-arsenal beside 2 gate robo expo.
On defending the all-ins: I saw countless replays where the defending player lost because he BUILT too much frickin stuff near his expansion. Golden rule when 1 gate expo-ing. Build NOTHING at all besides the warp-in pylon down below before you get your scouting intel.
Because if the terran goes all-in with SCVs it's perfectly viable to just sack the expo and rush to colossi while defending with force fields. In case of a thor-rush you chrono-boost out immortals and stall with stalkers picking off units while he runs towards you.
But if you have, say, your robotics near your expo you are obviously very screwed.
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On December 25 2010 19:40 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2010 16:58 Jayrod wrote:
is this the go to build again after the repair nerf? Was it ever "not" viable? Nobody said this is the one perfect build that wins 100% of the time - it's "another" very viable build for the PvT-strategy-arsenal beside 2 gate robo expo. On defending the all-ins: I saw countless replays where the defending player lost because he BUILT too much frickin stuff near his expansion. Golden rule when 1 gate expo-ing. Build NOTHING at all besides the warp-in pylon down below before you get your scouting intel. Because if the terran goes all-in with SCVs it's perfectly viable to just sack the expo and rush to colossi while defending with force fields. In case of a thor-rush you chrono-boost out immortals and stall with stalkers picking off units while he runs towards you. But if you have, say, your robotics near your expo you are obviously very screwed.
I think if T pulls scvs on some allins you have to sac the natural. There really isn't anything you can do about it. On larger maps (Iccup maps) it's much safer and more flexible. I wouldn't call it the "standard opening" but it's certainly the closest you can come to a stable FE in this game.
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On December 25 2010 19:40 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2010 16:58 Jayrod wrote:
is this the go to build again after the repair nerf? Was it ever "not" viable? Nobody said this is the one perfect build that wins 100% of the time - it's "another" very viable build for the PvT-strategy-arsenal beside 2 gate robo expo. On defending the all-ins: I saw countless replays where the defending player lost because he BUILT too much frickin stuff near his expansion. Golden rule when 1 gate expo-ing. Build NOTHING at all besides the warp-in pylon down below before you get your scouting intel. Because if the terran goes all-in with SCVs it's perfectly viable to just sack the expo and rush to colossi while defending with force fields. In case of a thor-rush you chrono-boost out immortals and stall with stalkers picking off units while he runs towards you. But if you have, say, your robotics near your expo you are obviously very screwed.
The repair thor rush was the only all-in that I found forced me to sac my natural. In general, warpgates giving P a 20 second headstart in production and travel distance giving P an additional ~25 seconds means a defending P can match or surpass an attacking T's army size at any time even with an expansion. If T pulls SCVs, P just has to pull more probes.
The repair thor push was actually a pretty small push in terms of unit cost, but the push was so insanely cost-efficient (zealots bug out against SCV surround, marines DPS without taking fire, stalkers shoot at thor but can't kill it due to repair) that P needed something like 3 times the army cost to defend it. That should even out a bit now that zealots will automatically kill the SCVs rather than bugging out and running in place.
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On December 25 2010 07:06 [Eternal]Phoenix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2010 06:52 Chronopolis wrote:http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/119941-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolisI had to get 2 obs because of the threat of cloak banshees and just didn't have enough to stop the push when he pulled 15 scvs. The build he went was 1-1-1 into 2 additional rax. The other build that is extremely hard to stop even in far positions, and imo seems impossible in close positions, is the 4 rax ghost mm off of 1 base. The terran often pulls scvs in that push as well. Any advice as to what I could have done would be appreciated. As far as I know, if T does a 1 base allin with scv pull you pretty much can't hold it unless you played 100% optimally and pulled all your probes down in the fight. I've never seen the 4 rax ghost/mm push, but I do know that bio/ghost is unstoppable without colossus or a really large chargelot army (and scvs mess them up). I think that might be holdable if you rush colossus after the expo. As for 1/1/1 allins - you cannot hold them consistently if scvs are pulled. IMO they break this build.
i'd say if u went chargelot u gotta flank with it and run by the scvs
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On December 28 2010 02:07 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2010 19:40 sleepingdog wrote:On December 25 2010 16:58 Jayrod wrote:
is this the go to build again after the repair nerf? Was it ever "not" viable? Nobody said this is the one perfect build that wins 100% of the time - it's "another" very viable build for the PvT-strategy-arsenal beside 2 gate robo expo. On defending the all-ins: I saw countless replays where the defending player lost because he BUILT too much frickin stuff near his expansion. Golden rule when 1 gate expo-ing. Build NOTHING at all besides the warp-in pylon down below before you get your scouting intel. Because if the terran goes all-in with SCVs it's perfectly viable to just sack the expo and rush to colossi while defending with force fields. In case of a thor-rush you chrono-boost out immortals and stall with stalkers picking off units while he runs towards you. But if you have, say, your robotics near your expo you are obviously very screwed. The repair thor rush was the only all-in that I found forced me to sac my natural. In general, warpgates giving P a 20 second headstart in production and travel distance giving P an additional ~25 seconds means a defending P can match or surpass an attacking T's army size at any time even with an expansion. If T pulls SCVs, P just has to pull more probes.
I still can't hold mass marine/SCV-pushs on some maps - prime candidate would be xel naga. If he throws down a fake gas and comes BEFORE my first warp-cycle, then this is very bad.
Most of the time I can catch it early enough to cancel, but sometimes I just have to abandon the expo, mass-produce sentries and tech to colossi like crazy. Simply wanted to emphazise that some people have the odd habit of producing way too much stuff near expansions before they get scouting information.....because if you, say, have started your robotics or too many pylons down near your expo, you will be very dead in this case.
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Sorry to bring back an old thread. Just wondering if this is still a valid strategy?
PvT is my worst Protoss match up, apart from Thor timing pushes I lose most often to very fast marine or marine+maruder pushes (like 4-5mins) sometimes with SCVs to bunker.
I'm finding the only way I can hold it off is to get a very fast sentry and forcefield my ramp, but if I miss that ff i'm dead. Is it really possible to chrono so many units out of 1 gate that you can hold off these 4-5min 2 rax rushes AND expand AND not die a few minutes later when he gets stim?
If so can anyone suggest a replay I can watch? The ones in the OP are pretty geriatric!
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It can be tricky but it's still a valid strategy, you just can't produce probes all the time against 3 barracks.
Against very early pushes with concussive you have to pull some probes and circle his units (or make him run away).
The scary thing is not the 4-5 min rush but the stim attack, without correct forcefields you will lose, the number of sentries needed depends on the map, on metalopolis it is hard to defend.
Sorry i don't have any replay to share as this strategy is not very trendy and i can't remember any.
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On December 28 2010 23:02 sleepingdog wrote:
I still can't hold mass marine/SCV-pushs on some maps - prime candidate would be xel naga. If he throws down a fake gas and comes BEFORE my first warp-cycle, then this is very bad.
Most of the time I can catch it early enough to cancel, but sometimes I just have to abandon the expo, mass-produce sentries and tech to colossi like crazy. Simply wanted to emphazise that some people have the odd habit of producing way too much stuff near expansions before they get scouting information.....because if you, say, have started your robotics or too many pylons down near your expo, you will be very dead in this case.
If you push with your first zealot stalker you will do damage for free due to how awesome shields are.
And you will also usually have the chance to sack a zealot for a couple marines, which is a great trade - I've actually done pretty significant damage with my first zealot and stalker/2nd stalker rallied to first stalker.
After I do that push i leave my stalker outside the T base and poke up his ramp every now and then (i can just go near the ramp and take fire to discern whether he has marauders). This allows me to scout if he is all in'ing, as well as letting me kite his units across the entire map (which is a LOT of free hits).
Its also worth noting that your nexus will tank marine scv for a ridiclously long time, which is more than enough time for your first 2 stalkers to slowly bring down the marine/scv health even before warpgate is finished (although I chrono out my warpgate relatively quickly so I don't have issues with early rushes).
Something that I have been doing is dropping a forge with my 2 gateways and chrono'ing out a +1 armour (finish approx 8 minutes) if I scout any marauders. This pretty much makes any marine all in's pretty easy to deal with (especially marine raven banshee--to which i just drop a stargate as soon as I scout it, go zealot sentry phoenix, and collect my free win). I do get my robo still relatively early to deal with any delayed banshees and trickiness.
The +1 armour also sets up a nice timing attack against any 1-2 rax expansions where you can trade your zealots for a LOT of bio and usually some scvs. As long as you save your sentries (seriously people, save your sentries) you can also take a quick 3rd after this attack as T won't be attacking for a while--bioballs > zealots once crit mass is hit but until then (or with superior upgrades/charge) zealots are ridiculously cost efficient against bio with decent ff's and guard shield. It's actually quite silly how a well upgraded protoss can roflstomp a t bio army that skips/has slow upgrades; I generally get 3/3 at around 15-16 minutes, so when I play against T's that don't upgrade quickly I have so much fun with my zealots--and the fast upgrades also let me skip colossi and go straight to HT off 3 base.
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EPT
