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On December 07 2010 09:20 Alejandrisha wrote:
I've used this kind of build as my standard in pvt for a long time but I sometimes find it a bit weak vs +1 stim timing pushes with 3rax as you don't have a lot of sentries (or your sentries don't have a lot of energy since you can't afford many of them off one gas early on) so you have to be careful doing this on maps where your nat's choke is wide open like metal and xel naga. A great build to mix in a series and on ladder if you have good enough macro/forcefields to fight the timing push I mentioned earlier.
You can hold a thor timing push with decent scouting.. if you see just a bunker on the ramp you need to get up that robo pretty quickly and look for the tech lab on the factory and get some immortals cookin
You can get 2 sentries : one right after your nexus, another one after warp up which gives you 3 forcefield at 7min of game and that's quite enough to defend against 3 rax m&m.
Since I trained a lot against this buildon SoW, when I see that the Terran is going for 3rax push I feeling confident and I'm pretty sure to win the game even in close position.
If you fail, you probably don't micro your units properly (make sure that you have always zealots in front of ur stalker to tank against marauders, if you few zealots are going to die, back your stalker and make some more to come back).
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On December 07 2010 11:12 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 10:45 kcdc wrote:On December 07 2010 07:51 Minigun wrote:
I've actually worked a gas steal into this, I think it shuts down most of the all ins that can happen, and tends to make them go more towards barracks play ( which is what you want)
I gas steal right before cyber, this also allows you to sneak in a probe as the marine is shooting at the gas. The only all-in that gives me any trouble at all right now is the repair thor all-in which, mercifully, is finally being patched. I welcome the banshee and tank all-ins as they don't give me much trouble at all since I started probe scouting for expansions before teching past robo. If they haven't expanded by the time your observer hits their base, you know you don't need tech to win, so you just get 6 gates and mass gateway units sort of like you would for a PvZ 6-gate all-in. The hard part is scouting in time to cut probes and react accordingly. Some pushes push out, right as the observer comes, and you can't really prepare for.
Right. That's why I've been probe scouting for an expo about 60-90 seconds before the obs would hit their base. If there's no expo, I get 5 gates, and once my obs confirms an all-in, I get 6, cut probes and chrono gates continuously. What you really want tech against is an expo with MMM, and you can pretty much rule that out with a probe scout.
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For those still struggling against the marine-banshee-raven all-ins, here's a couple replays showing what I've been doing. I scout with a probe for an expo from T, and if it's not there, I start preparing for an all-in by grabbing extra gates. When my obs confirms the all-in, I cut probe production and max out on zealots and stalkers with chrono. By the time T's push finally hits, your army is so big that the PDD doesn't even matter.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-172401.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-172402.jpg)
In the Shakuras replay, I actually did that scout with my army. That's a little riskier because a 3-rax would be able to kill your army there with conc shell, but I felt like he was either teching or going for a minimally defended expo, and the main army scout would be good against both.
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Thanks a lot ! I used your strategy since 2 months, but i partially was giving it up because i didn't know what to do against these All-Ins.
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On December 07 2010 07:51 Minigun wrote:
I've actually worked a gas steal into this, I think it shuts down most of the all ins that can happen, and tends to make them go more towards barracks play ( which is what you want)
I gas steal right before cyber, this also allows you to sneak in a probe as the marine is shooting at the gas.
Been doing this as well and it works wonders. Essentially shuts down the early thor push and I've found that even at a decent play level (2k+) people can still be thrown off when you deny them their planned build order. I've seen some really funny builds come out from otherwise decently skilled players in this situation 
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Any advice vs. 2 thor pushes?
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On December 09 2010 05:27 Shadrak wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 07:51 Minigun wrote:
I've actually worked a gas steal into this, I think it shuts down most of the all ins that can happen, and tends to make them go more towards barracks play ( which is what you want)
I gas steal right before cyber, this also allows you to sneak in a probe as the marine is shooting at the gas. Been doing this as well and it works wonders. Essentially shuts down the early thor push and I've found that even at a decent play level (2k+) people can still be thrown off when you deny them their planned build order. I've seen some really funny builds come out from otherwise decently skilled players in this situation
Yep, I've been doing this as well on maps like Steppes/Blistering Sands/XC. Makes things more manageable. I hardly run into Terrans on Scrap, but I feel that if you do, it wouldn't be a bad idea.
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On December 09 2010 05:27 Shadrak wrote:Been doing this as well and it works wonders. Essentially shuts down the early thor push and I've found that even at a decent play level (2k+) people can still be thrown off when you deny them their planned build order. I've seen some really funny builds come out from otherwise decently skilled players in this situation
Really? I haven't found a gas steal to significantly impact my Thor timings at all - the time when my marines kill the gas steal is about when I want the second gas anyway. It does open up the front somewhat since the first few marines are at the geyser, allowing a poke to pick off an SCV or so. Maybe I'm missing something in the timings at only 2100ish, but when I take the second gas at 23 to 24, I generally have enough gas to get the armory about immediately, and then the Thor after it finished. My second Thor timing is a little rougher since I often need to delay it, but it's usually choked by minerals more often than gas.
The gas steal seemed mostly useful at slowing cloaked banshee, so you don't need fast robo. That seems reason enough though.
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i play against himm on ladder lalala i got raped though...
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I'm really happy that this build is working pretty well (thx a lot to kcdc). Btw, is there any solid build that I can do over and over in pvsp ? I like to have a main build that works against everything with a safe way.
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On December 11 2010 06:40 SaJa wrote:
I'm really happy that this build is working pretty well (thx a lot to kcdc). Btw, is there any solid build that I can do over and over in pvsp ? I like to have a main build that works against everything with a safe way.
Everyone would love a build like that in PvP. The closest you're going to get is a 3 gate robo in my opinion, but it's pretty boring to play and blink stalkers are way more fun 
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On December 11 2010 06:40 SaJa wrote:
I'm really happy that this build is workig pretty well (thx a lot to kcdc). Btw, is there any solid build that I can do over again in pvsp ?
My favorite build is gate -> core -> twilight -> gate -> blink. Get a forward pylon after you start blink, spend a few chronos on blink research, and attack with as many stalkers as you can right when blink finishes. You won't do much damage unless he's doing something weird, but you can usually pick off a few units and get a useful scout. A 4-gate will hit before you push out. Just get a sentry and be good w/ your FF's and you'll be fine I think. You'll have map control against robo and can expand. And I believe the blink timing is early enough that if he's giving you map control and you don't see robo units when you attack, he's probably DT rushing, so get a forge and some sentries to FF your ramp when you see the blurs till you have cannons.
Getting a quick robo is the only other stable opening in PvP IMO. Everything else can result in BO losses pretty frequently.
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On December 05 2010 08:39 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 07:19 EtherealDeath wrote:
He says it's just a 3rax stim rush, but allowing the nexus to finish, and then hitting and destroying nexus. Apparently that's actually not supposed to be stoppable no matter what you do. He's not even talking about just damaging the toss and then transitioning into something else - apparently the initial stim rush is not supposed to be stopped. Guess the terrans doing it to me on ladder must be really bad at stim rushing... That's kind of what I figured. I've practiced against 3-rax stim pushes from a lot of pretty good players, and I feel pretty good about my chances of holding it on all maps. Perhaps it's possible to bust on close positions, but close positions also means a stronger zealot+stalker poke. Bio just isn't very scary to me w/o medivacs.
The key to breaking a P FE with 3rax play is to not wait for stim to finish. If the T sits in his base while researching stim and pumping units out of 3rax and eventually move out when stim finishes, the P will have had time to produce a fairly scary army, and more importantly, got a bunch of sentries with quite high energy. That makes the 3rax vs FE fight mostly about micro and how well the P uses FFs. With good FFs I can see 3rax being defended easily.
However if you scout the FE with some kind of early poke (2rine/2rauder + conc shells or similar), you should just immediately rally all your barracks to the P natural while you keep macroing up towards 3rax and stim. Not building addons helps a lot too, 2 naked rax will get troops out faster than 1 reactored rax, and faster means more pressure. The key point is that by the time you scout the P FE he should still be on 1gate and hasnt got his unit production up yet. And while your first poke obviously also is only from 1rax, you will have got your unit producing structures up early and at the time of scouting the FE you should have a much greater army production. If you wait for stim and all that good stuff, you allow the P to catch up. However if you just rally all your stuff to his base he wont get his production up in time. FFs becomes a non issue that way too since you'll constantly be darting in/out of his expo with conc shell'd rauders with a continously growing army.
I'm like 7-0 against FEing P's in the 2100 diamond area doing that.
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For those still struggling against the marine-banshee-raven all-ins
Does 5g works if there are also tanks (with siege mod or not) ?
I killed 15 times my friend with 1gate+FE ad then he watch Rain vs Genius Build order ( 1 Raven, 2 banshees, 4 tanks, 19 marines 2 marauders and 5 SCV at 10min30 annd it raped me well 5 times ~~ (sometimes he FE, sometimes he doesnt)
The only way I found to win was (as said minigun) to steal 1 gaz. :\
My favorite build is gate -> core -> twilight -> gate -> blink
It is not 1 gate=>core=>2nd gate =>twilight=>3rd gate (cutting probe at 23 pop) ? Oo;
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On December 11 2010 23:02 SaJa wrote:Does 5g works if there are also tanks (with siege mod or not) ? I killed 15 times my friend with 1gate+FE ad then he watch Rain vs Genius Build order ( 1 Raven, 2 banshees, 4 tanks, 19 marines 2 marauders and 5 SCV at 10min30 annd it raped me well 5 times ~~ (sometimes he FE, sometimes he doesnt) The only way I found to win was (as said minigun) to steal 1 gaz. :\ It is not 1 gate=>core=>2nd gate =>twilight=>3rd gate (cutting probe at 23 pop) ? Oo;
I've beaten similar pushes pretty easily, but I don't know. I've been pretty good at catching the tanks unsieged. I'm sure it would be much harder if they catch you off guard outside your nat.
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On December 12 2010 00:56 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 23:02 SaJa wrote:For those still struggling against the marine-banshee-raven all-ins Does 5g works if there are also tanks (with siege mod or not) ? I killed 15 times my friend with 1gate+FE ad then he watch Rain vs Genius Build order ( 1 Raven, 2 banshees, 4 tanks, 19 marines 2 marauders and 5 SCV at 10min30 annd it raped me well 5 times ~~ (sometimes he FE, sometimes he doesnt) The only way I found to win was (as said minigun) to steal 1 gaz. :\ My favorite build is gate -> core -> twilight -> gate -> blink It is not 1 gate=>core=>2nd gate =>twilight=>3rd gate (cutting probe at 23 pop) ? Oo; I've beaten similar pushes pretty easily, but I don't know. I've been pretty good at catching the tanks unsieged. I'm sure it would be much harder if they catch you off guard outside your nat.
kcdc, if you have any more replays of this build, could you post them? Watching your and mini's stuff has been great, I've really begun to be able to work with the build well, but watching good players is always super helpful
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I've been struggling lately with this build against 3 rax Ghost pushes that come with 2-3 EMPs and a pretty sizable army. It always seems to hit in that small lull between gateway units and higher tech, and Forcefield is kind of a crutch in holding these pushes usually.
Any advice on holding these types of attacks? I find it especially hard to scout before Obs, by which point he is usually moving out.
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EPT
