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On December 05 2010 04:14 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 07:55 kcdc wrote:On November 30 2010 10:05 iAmJeffReY wrote:On November 29 2010 15:10 kzn wrote:
A friend of mine uses pretty much the same FE build vT and vZ, although its somewhat different from "the kcdc version" and obviously diverges pretty fast after the nexus completes. I would certainly hope people adapt these strategies from the basis here, since kcdc is at 2k games at 1850. It's a basis, not a step by step walkthrough. You may have to delay to a 2 gate to chrono out some zeal/stalker/sentry to deal with certain all in pushes. The problem many of you have is you stick so ridgidly to this. Terrans have learned how to beat a 1 gate fe. I do many many times, with a simple stim push to banshees. If it doesn't kill the expo, it kills all troops making 4 banshee harass into my 3rd that much easier. So I switched to Z and discovered that I'm about a 1800 Z player. I don't know builds, I don't know timings, I can't macro....whatever. This is what happened when I switched back to P: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/894392/1/kcdc/matches#filter=solo19-2. In one of the losses, my comp crashed. If P plays 1 gate FE perfectly, IMO, T can't win. I'll have to get more info out of my roommate, but he was practicing with some terran in SlayerS (part of the pre-qualifier thing to join SlayerS) who is ~2750 on the korean ladder with 200 games played, so pretty decent, and my roommate said that the terran said if protoss 1 gate FE, then he can beat the protoss every time (not just force nexus cancel), and in fact had my roommate go 1 gate FE and did that build to him, and apparently my roommate was pretty convinced, so he 2 gate robo expands now.
I'd be curious to see the BO.
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On December 05 2010 04:36 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 04:14 EtherealDeath wrote:On December 04 2010 07:55 kcdc wrote:On November 30 2010 10:05 iAmJeffReY wrote:On November 29 2010 15:10 kzn wrote:
A friend of mine uses pretty much the same FE build vT and vZ, although its somewhat different from "the kcdc version" and obviously diverges pretty fast after the nexus completes. I would certainly hope people adapt these strategies from the basis here, since kcdc is at 2k games at 1850. It's a basis, not a step by step walkthrough. You may have to delay to a 2 gate to chrono out some zeal/stalker/sentry to deal with certain all in pushes. The problem many of you have is you stick so ridgidly to this. Terrans have learned how to beat a 1 gate fe. I do many many times, with a simple stim push to banshees. If it doesn't kill the expo, it kills all troops making 4 banshee harass into my 3rd that much easier. So I switched to Z and discovered that I'm about a 1800 Z player. I don't know builds, I don't know timings, I can't macro....whatever. This is what happened when I switched back to P: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/894392/1/kcdc/matches#filter=solo19-2. In one of the losses, my comp crashed. If P plays 1 gate FE perfectly, IMO, T can't win. I'll have to get more info out of my roommate, but he was practicing with some terran in SlayerS (part of the pre-qualifier thing to join SlayerS) who is ~2750 on the korean ladder with 200 games played, so pretty decent, and my roommate said that the terran said if protoss 1 gate FE, then he can beat the protoss every time (not just force nexus cancel), and in fact had my roommate go 1 gate FE and did that build to him, and apparently my roommate was pretty convinced, so he 2 gate robo expands now. I'd be curious to see the BO.
Well he has to be back before 8pm EST tonight for CSL, so I should be able to get it out of him around then. Maybe he still has the replay too, doubt it though unless he saved it.
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He says it's just a 3rax stim rush, but allowing the nexus to finish, and then hitting and destroying nexus. Apparently that's actually not supposed to be stoppable no matter what you do. He's not even talking about just damaging the toss and then transitioning into something else - apparently the initial stim rush is not supposed to be stopped. Guess the terrans doing it to me on ladder must be really bad at stim rushing...
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On December 05 2010 07:19 EtherealDeath wrote:
He says it's just a 3rax stim rush, but allowing the nexus to finish, and then hitting and destroying nexus. Apparently that's actually not supposed to be stoppable no matter what you do. He's not even talking about just damaging the toss and then transitioning into something else - apparently the initial stim rush is not supposed to be stopped. Guess the terrans doing it to me on ladder must be really bad at stim rushing...
You have to time it right. I 2 rax stim rush, and almost NEVER lose to a 1 gate FE at the push. I trade armies + kill 10 probes at least, not to mention I have 4 banshees, a raven, and medic already building to come again in 2 minutes to finish the game.
So I can imagine a 3 rax, esp one with dual reactors, to run right over a 1 gate FE as you can't attempt to beat that many marines with stim without collsai or HT which ya won't have 1 gate FEing.
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On December 05 2010 07:19 EtherealDeath wrote:
He says it's just a 3rax stim rush, but allowing the nexus to finish, and then hitting and destroying nexus. Apparently that's actually not supposed to be stoppable no matter what you do. He's not even talking about just damaging the toss and then transitioning into something else - apparently the initial stim rush is not supposed to be stopped. Guess the terrans doing it to me on ladder must be really bad at stim rushing...
That's kind of what I figured. I've practiced against 3-rax stim pushes from a lot of pretty good players, and I feel pretty good about my chances of holding it on all maps. Perhaps it's possible to bust on close positions, but close positions also means a stronger zealot+stalker poke. Bio just isn't very scary to me w/o medivacs.
After dropping down the ladder w/ my crappy Zerg play, I've had a couple games where I've nearly killed 3-raxing players with my zealot+stalker poke. That didn't happen when I was around Top 200, but it's really fun around 2k points. If you can delay that barracks a bit with probe harass and fluster them by picking off an SCV, your stalker will have a field day dancing around SCVs and picking off marines as they pop.
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On December 05 2010 08:31 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 07:19 EtherealDeath wrote:
He says it's just a 3rax stim rush, but allowing the nexus to finish, and then hitting and destroying nexus. Apparently that's actually not supposed to be stoppable no matter what you do. He's not even talking about just damaging the toss and then transitioning into something else - apparently the initial stim rush is not supposed to be stopped. Guess the terrans doing it to me on ladder must be really bad at stim rushing... You have to time it right. I 2 rax stim rush, and almost NEVER lose to a 1 gate FE at the push. I trade armies + kill 10 probes at least, not to mention I have 4 banshees, a raven, and medic already building to come again in 2 minutes to finish the game. So I can imagine a 3 rax, esp one with dual reactors, to run right over a 1 gate FE as you can't attempt to beat that many marines with stim without collsai or HT which ya won't have 1 gate FEing.
Just watched the first replay you posted in that TvP help vs 1-gate FE thread. It's a decent build, but I saw a lot of holes that a 1-gate FE could punish. The reactor after your first marine is really risky on close positions. A good zealot+stalker poke will hit just when your 2nd and 3rd marines finish on close positions and will force you to pull SCVs. With good stalker micro, you'll fall well behind before P even expands.
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Have been practising this build, which seems to be working well so thanks! Had one question though when using it (sorry i dont have replay) - I tried doing this on Metropolis on close positions. How do you counter marine + siege tank pushes? He had 3 siege tanks 9 marines, i had 4 zealots, 4 stalkers. I thought easy! But then my natural expansion is open, and he just sieged up outside the natural, and i felt forced to run out of my base and attack on open field. His marines carved my zealots running down and the siege tanks easily handled my stalkers. Suggestions?
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I experienced that you can't in fact hold a 3-Rax stimmed Push on Closed Positions Metalopolis and LT, DQ and obviously SoW, but the distances are so short that it doesn't mean the build can be hardcountered everytime. 1-Gate-FE is still viable on most bigger maps, and i doubt it can be stopped there with 3-Rax.
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On December 06 2010 09:01 bankai wrote:
Have been practising this build, which seems to be working well so thanks! Had one question though when using it (sorry i dont have replay) - I tried doing this on Metropolis on close positions. How do you counter marine + siege tank pushes? He had 3 siege tanks 9 marines, i had 4 zealots, 4 stalkers. I thought easy! But then my natural expansion is open, and he just sieged up outside the natural, and i felt forced to run out of my base and attack on open field. His marines carved my zealots running down and the siege tanks easily handled my stalkers. Suggestions?
Some advice?? Sorry if this is the wrong thread for this...if it is let me know and i can post somewhere else.
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Russian Federation24 Posts
guys dont use that bo on close positions. try to use 3 gate/2gas FE with lots of sentries(not sure who of pros uses it but i like it) its not much later then 1 gate FE and its cool too.
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Thanks for posting on my thread. I think i'll try some build now against terran, although I've played zerg like 9 out of the last 10 games.
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On December 06 2010 09:01 bankai wrote:
Have been practising this build, which seems to be working well so thanks! Had one question though when using it (sorry i dont have replay) - I tried doing this on Metropolis on close positions. How do you counter marine + siege tank pushes? He had 3 siege tanks 9 marines, i had 4 zealots, 4 stalkers. I thought easy! But then my natural expansion is open, and he just sieged up outside the natural, and i felt forced to run out of my base and attack on open field. His marines carved my zealots running down and the siege tanks easily handled my stalkers. Suggestions?
Know where his army is. Siege tanks are strong when sieged but very weak when unsieged because they need to waste 4 seconds switching modes before shooting. If you had caught him while he was crossing the map, you would have won easily. By moving out into the map against tanks, you at least force him to siege up in the middle ground between your bases and crawl forward by leap-frogging his tanks. This will slow him down and give you more time to prepare. Never give up ground for free against tanks.
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I've actually worked a gas steal into this, I think it shuts down most of the all ins that can happen, and tends to make them go more towards barracks play ( which is what you want)
I gas steal right before cyber, this also allows you to sneak in a probe as the marine is shooting at the gas.
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I'm presuming by "most of the all ins that can happen" you're talking about non-banshee play, because it was my impression that things like 2port banshee were handled fine by the build even without a gas steal.
With that assumption, I'd have to question whether or not a gas steal after cyber is going to give you more of a benefit than just taking a second gas - most of the all-ins that hit before banshees (hell, and most of the ones that hit after) that give me trouble are marine heavy and I think I would vastly prefer to be able to make more sentries as opposed to delaying the all-in.
Which all-ins in particular are you trying to shut down with it?
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On December 06 2010 23:12 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 09:01 bankai wrote:
Have been practising this build, which seems to be working well so thanks! Had one question though when using it (sorry i dont have replay) - I tried doing this on Metropolis on close positions. How do you counter marine + siege tank pushes? He had 3 siege tanks 9 marines, i had 4 zealots, 4 stalkers. I thought easy! But then my natural expansion is open, and he just sieged up outside the natural, and i felt forced to run out of my base and attack on open field. His marines carved my zealots running down and the siege tanks easily handled my stalkers. Suggestions? Know where his army is. Siege tanks are strong when sieged but very weak when unsieged because they need to waste 4 seconds switching modes before shooting. If you had caught him while he was crossing the map, you would have won easily. By moving out into the map against tanks, you at least force him to siege up in the middle ground between your bases and crawl forward by leap-frogging his tanks. This will slow him down and give you more time to prepare. Never give up ground for free against tanks.
Thanks kcdc, great tips and awesome thread, really like the idea of ur build!
Another Q, have u ever felt the need to vary the 1 Gate FE to 2 Gate Fe or 1 Gate Forge FE? Especially thinking about 3 rax push on close map positions here 
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I've used this kind of build as my standard in pvt for a long time but I sometimes find it a bit weak vs +1 stim timing pushes with 3rax as you don't have a lot of sentries (or your sentries don't have a lot of energy since you can't afford many of them off one gas early on) so you have to be careful doing this on maps where your nat's choke is wide open like metal and xel naga. A great build to mix in a series and on ladder if you have good enough macro/forcefields to fight the timing push I mentioned earlier.
You can hold a thor timing push with decent scouting.. if you see just a bunker on the ramp you need to get up that robo pretty quickly and look for the tech lab on the factory and get some immortals cookin
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On December 07 2010 09:11 kzn wrote:
I'm presuming by "most of the all ins that can happen" you're talking about non-banshee play, because it was my impression that things like 2port banshee were handled fine by the build even without a gas steal.
With that assumption, I'd have to question whether or not a gas steal after cyber is going to give you more of a benefit than just taking a second gas - most of the all-ins that hit before banshees (hell, and most of the ones that hit after) that give me trouble are marine heavy and I think I would vastly prefer to be able to make more sentries as opposed to delaying the all-in.
Which all-ins in particular are you trying to shut down with it?
2 port banashee is one of the hardest ones to hold IMO, which I will gladly pay 75 to shut down ( also allows you to sneak a probe in sometimes)
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You can get enough stalkers/observer to hold the cloak.. even if you get your robo after your 14 gate and 2 after your expo goes down your obs will still be out in time to deal with the first one. then it's all about splitting up your stalkers with 2 observers (and keeping an obs or a probe below their ramp to see if you need to join your forces.
2 port banshee will usually be followed by a banshee/raven/marine/scv all in and you really won't have time for storm or sometimes even charge. Getting a cannon or 2 can really help out if you don't scout and expansion since your gateways units are not very cost effective against this mix. You'll need your macro to be pretty stellar to get enough units out to hold it but it's definitely possible.. never forget to activate guardian shield!
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On December 07 2010 07:51 Minigun wrote:
I've actually worked a gas steal into this, I think it shuts down most of the all ins that can happen, and tends to make them go more towards barracks play ( which is what you want)
I gas steal right before cyber, this also allows you to sneak in a probe as the marine is shooting at the gas.
The only all-in that gives me any trouble at all right now is the repair thor all-in which, mercifully, is finally being patched. I welcome the banshee and tank all-ins as they don't give me much trouble at all since I started probe scouting for expansions before teching past robo. If they haven't expanded by the time your observer hits their base, you know you don't need tech to win, so you just get 6 gates and mass gateway units sort of like you would for a PvZ 6-gate all-in.
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On December 07 2010 10:45 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 07:51 Minigun wrote:
I've actually worked a gas steal into this, I think it shuts down most of the all ins that can happen, and tends to make them go more towards barracks play ( which is what you want)
I gas steal right before cyber, this also allows you to sneak in a probe as the marine is shooting at the gas. The only all-in that gives me any trouble at all right now is the repair thor all-in which, mercifully, is finally being patched. I welcome the banshee and tank all-ins as they don't give me much trouble at all since I started probe scouting for expansions before teching past robo. If they haven't expanded by the time your observer hits their base, you know you don't need tech to win, so you just get 6 gates and mass gateway units sort of like you would for a PvZ 6-gate all-in.
The hard part is scouting in time to cut probes and react accordingly. Some pushes push out, right as the observer comes, and you can't really prepare for.
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EPT
