[G] kcdc's PvT FE - Page 61

On December 13 2010 02:20 Pookie Monster wrote:



haha ive stopped doing that all in, now i just FE myself and use the same unit composition but now my army is larger and i even can get ghosts in the mix

On December 13 2010 02:39 Hane wrote:
hum... i make my robo around 6:30, so 1st obs is out around 8:00.
His first banshie + cloack is around 8min too, so one of my 2 mineral lines is vulnerable.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/115315-1v1-terran-protoss-scrap-station
Btw i use a little variation of kcdc build, full chrono warp instead of full chrono gate^^

On December 19 2010 00:24 SaJa wrote:
So what's the best way to do when we see Terran making FE with full rax ?

I make fast ht on 3 gates+1 robo ? Oo

On December 19 2010 01:12 kcdc wrote:


I'm not sure what the best response is against a Terran that safely expands and goes bio. Hopefully some good players will chime in with their responses.

My personal thought process on 1-gate FE vs FE bio T is that well-controlled gateway units--particularly zealots--are strong against bio in smaller food counts, but become very weak as the food counts get higher. Zealots take forever to kill for MM if you manage to prevent kiting with a couple good forcefields, zealots can clean up 10-30 food in MM pretty easily. As the food counts grow, however, zealots get less surface area to attack, they take more damage before they get in range, and the ball of MM is bigger so you can only FF behind the front couple lines of units meaning that even when you get your FFs down, you lose a lot of your zealots to kill a quarter of his bio. A one-base T either has to attack early with ~10-30 food of MM to prevent you from taking advantage or if he attacks later with a larger army, your economy will allow you to have a larger force with much stronger reinforcements. A two-base T can afford to wait until his MM hits the critical mass where gateway units don't pose a threat.

IMO, against a FE T, P has to either mass gateways without tech and try kill the expo quickly or tech to AoE damage quickly. I used to try to rush storm, but I found there were a lot of games where I'd get storm just a little too late. Now I go quickly to collosi, but I'm not sure what the best timing for that is. If you go for collosi, you definitely want to get 2+ collosi with range and do damage before they have many vikings, but I don't know the best way to get there.

Do any good players have thoughts on how many gates you want to produce out while getting your collosi and range? I've found myself cutting production from my first 3 gates to get my collosi really fast, and that seems to hit the right timing before they have more than a couple vikings, but the resulting army is too small. I've also tried being aggressive with 5 gates and teching slowly to collosi, but there, the collosi seem too late. I'm guessing that constant production out of 3 or 4 gates will be the way to go, but I haven't optimized it. You'll also want to consider your timings for your 2nd, 3rd and 4th assimilators as more gas will speed up the collosi tech, but will reduce your gateway unit count.

On December 19 2010 02:02 iamke55 wrote:


Don't think of it in terms of "I must get colossus before he can produce vikings!" Instead, look at it this way: he won't even build vikings until he actually sees your robotics bay, so there's no rush to tech that hard. What I usually do is make a robo around 40 food off of 4 gates, take 2nd and 3rd gas immediately after, and then add the robo bay once my robo is done. Getting the 4th gas too early makes your ground army too stalker/sentry heavy, so I usually don't build it until I want to start upgrading from a forge. Once you have a couple colossus out, it's safe to take a third base. That is around when a twilight council and 2 more gates are added. Charge should be researched immediately. Once you're actually mining from the third base and have 6 gas, that's a good time to add the templar archives and another 2 gates. The general idea is to tech/expand in a way that minimizes the timing windows when you aren't producing gateway units.

Here's a replay of me doing this vs a top 100 terran

On December 19 2010 05:40 kcdc wrote:


I have to disagree with you on the window where collosi are good. Good Terran players know the timing when collosi will be a threat and will have a starport+reactor ready to go at that time. They won't mass produce vikings until they see your collosi tech, but they'll be actively scouting an ready to ramp up production whenever necessary. That means you have to either hide the fact that you're making collosi or make use of your collosi before he can match you with adequate vikings. Expanding slows down T's tech as much as it does yours. I think it's a good idea to try to hit a timing window where he's unlikely to be able to have sufficient vikings rather than relying on him making a mistake and being surprised that you did something standard.