EPT
fast banshie kills so many probes... (like 4 in my main, then 4+ in my natural)... how can i don't autolose vs fast tech ? :/
[G] kcdc's PvT FE - Page 61
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Hane
France210 Posts
fast banshie kills so many probes... (like 4 in my main, then 4+ in my natural)... how can i don't autolose vs fast tech ? :/ | ||
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SaJa
France84 Posts
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Tiegrr
United States607 Posts
On December 13 2010 00:36 Hane wrote: I feel the big weakness of 1gate fe is the lack of detection fast banshie kills so many probes... (like 4 in my main, then 4+ in my natural)... how can i don't autolose vs fast tech ? :/ If he turtles and you can't scout, you should be making a Robo as a habit for that Observer to see what he's building. | ||
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EliteReplay
Dominican Republic913 Posts
On December 07 2010 07:51 Minigun wrote: I've actually worked a gas steal into this, I think it shuts down most of the all ins that can happen, and tends to make them go more towards barracks play ( which is what you want) I gas steal right before cyber, this also allows you to sneak in a probe as the marine is shooting at the gas. nice indeed, i was thinking to have a probe hidden like P used to do in PvZ in SC1. | ||
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Pookie Monster
United States303 Posts
On December 09 2010 02:58 kcdc wrote: For those still struggling against the marine-banshee-raven all-ins, here's a couple replays showing what I've been doing. I scout with a probe for an expo from T, and if it's not there, I start preparing for an all-in by grabbing extra gates. When my obs confirms the all-in, I cut probe production and max out on zealots and stalkers with chrono. By the time T's push finally hits, your army is so big that the PDD doesn't even matter. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-172401.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-172402.jpg) In the Shakuras replay, I actually did that scout with my army. That's a little riskier because a 3-rax would be able to kill your army there with conc shell, but I felt like he was either teching or going for a minimally defended expo, and the main army scout would be good against both. haha ive stopped doing that all in, now i just FE myself and use the same unit composition but now my army is larger and i even can get ghosts in the mix | ||
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zyglrox
United States1168 Posts
On December 13 2010 00:36 Hane wrote: I feel the big weakness of 1gate fe is the lack of detection fast banshie kills so many probes... (like 4 in my main, then 4+ in my natural)... how can i don't autolose vs fast tech ? :/ you must be forgetting something in the build. ok you poke his ramp with your 2 stalkers and zealot, see only marines no add-on for the rax, or a bunker that means he is teching. even if he is actually not going banshee you need to throwdown the robo and get the obs just incase he goes banshee. after you throw your nexus down on 29-32ish food cut probes and throw down your robo/2 gates and chrono your first obs AND KEEP IT AT HOME. if he is investing heavily into banshee you will need two observers and you will be forced to stay in your base for a little while. don't worry about it as he won't have much of anything else other than a few banshees for the time being. just try to take as little damage as possible and sit on your economic lead. | ||
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Hane
France210 Posts
His first banshie + cloack is around 8min too, so one of my 2 mineral lines is vulnerable. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/115315-1v1-terran-protoss-scrap-station Btw i use a little variation of kcdc build, full chrono warp instead of full chrono gate^^ | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On December 13 2010 02:20 Pookie Monster wrote: haha ive stopped doing that all in, now i just FE myself and use the same unit composition but now my army is larger and i even can get ghosts in the mix I think that sounds a lot more solid. I've been saying for a long time that T's best response is to also expand. Banshee harass into expand+marauders is a real pain in the ass to deal with. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On December 13 2010 02:39 Hane wrote: hum... i make my robo around 6:30, so 1st obs is out around 8:00. His first banshie + cloack is around 8min too, so one of my 2 mineral lines is vulnerable. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/115315-1v1-terran-protoss-scrap-station Btw i use a little variation of kcdc build, full chrono warp instead of full chrono gate^^ Yes, cloak rush hits at about the same time as you get your obs, so you'll probably lose some probes. But cloak rush is a big investment, and if they only kill 5 probes, you're still on 2 bases with 40 workers against their 1 base and 30 workers. | ||
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Minigun
619 Posts
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SaJa
France84 Posts
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Welmu
Finland3295 Posts
On December 17 2010 02:58 SaJa wrote: How to counter this godamn 4 gate (or 3) fast warp proxy pylone in pvsp ?... I have enough ... I got only pvsp in ladder and they all doin' the same shit~~ Ask in pvp thread not in pvt ._... (4 gate yourself or go 3 gate robo with two sentrys out fast) | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On December 13 2010 02:39 Hane wrote: hum... i make my robo around 6:30, so 1st obs is out around 8:00. His first banshie + cloack is around 8min too, so one of my 2 mineral lines is vulnerable. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/115315-1v1-terran-protoss-scrap-station Btw i use a little variation of kcdc build, full chrono warp instead of full chrono gate^^ I didnt check your replay but I noitced that HuK does 2 gates with full chrono on warpgate and expands around the same food as this FE, then he drops robo with first 200 after the nexus, then 2 more gates. I might try his variation but i think chrono on warp with only one gateway probably makes fewer units than chronoing one gate | ||
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SaJa
France84 Posts
I make fast ht on 3 gates+1 robo ? Oo | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On December 19 2010 00:24 SaJa wrote: So what's the best way to do when we see Terran making FE with full rax ? I make fast ht on 3 gates+1 robo ? Oo I'm not sure what the best response is against a Terran that safely expands and goes bio. Hopefully some good players will chime in with their responses. My personal thought process on 1-gate FE vs FE bio T is that well-controlled gateway units--particularly zealots--are strong against bio in smaller food counts, but become very weak as the food counts get higher. Zealots take forever to kill for MM if you manage to prevent kiting with a couple good forcefields, zealots can clean up 10-30 food in MM pretty easily. As the food counts grow, however, zealots get less surface area to attack, they take more damage before they get in range, and the ball of MM is bigger so you can only FF behind the front couple lines of units meaning that even when you get your FFs down, you lose a lot of your zealots to kill a quarter of his bio. A one-base T either has to attack early with ~10-30 food of MM to prevent you from taking advantage or if he attacks later with a larger army, your economy will allow you to have a larger force with much stronger reinforcements. A two-base T can afford to wait until his MM hits the critical mass where gateway units don't pose a threat. IMO, against a FE T, P has to either mass gateways without tech and try kill the expo quickly or tech to AoE damage quickly. I used to try to rush storm, but I found there were a lot of games where I'd get storm just a little too late. Now I go quickly to collosi, but I'm not sure what the best timing for that is. If you go for collosi, you definitely want to get 2+ collosi with range and do damage before they have many vikings, but I don't know the best way to get there. Do any good players have thoughts on how many gates you want to produce out while getting your collosi and range? I've found myself cutting production from my first 3 gates to get my collosi really fast, and that seems to hit the right timing before they have more than a couple vikings, but the resulting army is too small. I've also tried being aggressive with 5 gates and teching slowly to collosi, but there, the collosi seem too late. I'm guessing that constant production out of 3 or 4 gates will be the way to go, but I haven't optimized it. You'll also want to consider your timings for your 2nd, 3rd and 4th assimilators as more gas will speed up the collosi tech, but will reduce your gateway unit count. | ||
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
If he doesn't have enough vikings, try to kill his expansion and force him back into his main. You'll have a lot of collossi, so you can try to target SCVs or whatever you feel is necessary. Don't throw gateway units away, of course-- Just poke with the collossi wherever you can, and if he forces the engagement, attack with your small gateway force as well. If it's going well, you might want a forward pylon (which you can make pretty much anyways) so you can keep reinforcing and break him. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On December 19 2010 01:12 kcdc wrote: I'm not sure what the best response is against a Terran that safely expands and goes bio. Hopefully some good players will chime in with their responses. My personal thought process on 1-gate FE vs FE bio T is that well-controlled gateway units--particularly zealots--are strong against bio in smaller food counts, but become very weak as the food counts get higher. Zealots take forever to kill for MM if you manage to prevent kiting with a couple good forcefields, zealots can clean up 10-30 food in MM pretty easily. As the food counts grow, however, zealots get less surface area to attack, they take more damage before they get in range, and the ball of MM is bigger so you can only FF behind the front couple lines of units meaning that even when you get your FFs down, you lose a lot of your zealots to kill a quarter of his bio. A one-base T either has to attack early with ~10-30 food of MM to prevent you from taking advantage or if he attacks later with a larger army, your economy will allow you to have a larger force with much stronger reinforcements. A two-base T can afford to wait until his MM hits the critical mass where gateway units don't pose a threat. IMO, against a FE T, P has to either mass gateways without tech and try kill the expo quickly or tech to AoE damage quickly. I used to try to rush storm, but I found there were a lot of games where I'd get storm just a little too late. Now I go quickly to collosi, but I'm not sure what the best timing for that is. If you go for collosi, you definitely want to get 2+ collosi with range and do damage before they have many vikings, but I don't know the best way to get there. Do any good players have thoughts on how many gates you want to produce out while getting your collosi and range? I've found myself cutting production from my first 3 gates to get my collosi really fast, and that seems to hit the right timing before they have more than a couple vikings, but the resulting army is too small. I've also tried being aggressive with 5 gates and teching slowly to collosi, but there, the collosi seem too late. I'm guessing that constant production out of 3 or 4 gates will be the way to go, but I haven't optimized it. You'll also want to consider your timings for your 2nd, 3rd and 4th assimilators as more gas will speed up the collosi tech, but will reduce your gateway unit count. Don't think of it in terms of "I must get colossus before he can produce vikings!" Instead, look at it this way: he won't even build vikings until he actually sees your robotics bay, so there's no rush to tech that hard. What I usually do is make a robo around 40 food off of 4 gates, take 2nd and 3rd gas immediately after, and then add the robo bay once my robo is done. Getting the 4th gas too early makes your ground army too stalker/sentry heavy, so I usually don't build it until I want to start upgrading from a forge. Once you have a couple colossus out, it's safe to take a third base. That is around when a twilight council and 2 more gates are added. Charge should be researched immediately. Once you're actually mining from the third base and have 6 gas, that's a good time to add the templar archives and another 2 gates. The general idea is to tech/expand in a way that minimizes the timing windows when you aren't producing gateway units. Here's a replay of me doing this vs a top 100 terran ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-174810.jpg) | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On December 19 2010 02:02 iamke55 wrote: Don't think of it in terms of "I must get colossus before he can produce vikings!" Instead, look at it this way: he won't even build vikings until he actually sees your robotics bay, so there's no rush to tech that hard. What I usually do is make a robo around 40 food off of 4 gates, take 2nd and 3rd gas immediately after, and then add the robo bay once my robo is done. Getting the 4th gas too early makes your ground army too stalker/sentry heavy, so I usually don't build it until I want to start upgrading from a forge. Once you have a couple colossus out, it's safe to take a third base. That is around when a twilight council and 2 more gates are added. Charge should be researched immediately. Once you're actually mining from the third base and have 6 gas, that's a good time to add the templar archives and another 2 gates. The general idea is to tech/expand in a way that minimizes the timing windows when you aren't producing gateway units. Here's a replay of me doing this vs a top 100 terran I have to disagree with you on the window where collosi are good. Good Terran players know the timing when collosi will be a threat and will have a starport+reactor ready to go at that time. They won't mass produce vikings until they see your collosi tech, but they'll be actively scouting an ready to ramp up production whenever necessary. That means you have to either hide the fact that you're making collosi or make use of your collosi before he can match you with adequate vikings. Expanding slows down T's tech as much as it does yours. I think it's a good idea to try to hit a timing window where he's unlikely to be able to have sufficient vikings rather than relying on him making a mistake and being surprised that you did something standard. | ||
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shingbi
58 Posts
On December 19 2010 05:40 kcdc wrote: I have to disagree with you on the window where collosi are good. Good Terran players know the timing when collosi will be a threat and will have a starport+reactor ready to go at that time. They won't mass produce vikings until they see your collosi tech, but they'll be actively scouting an ready to ramp up production whenever necessary. That means you have to either hide the fact that you're making collosi or make use of your collosi before he can match you with adequate vikings. Expanding slows down T's tech as much as it does yours. I think it's a good idea to try to hit a timing window where he's unlikely to be able to have sufficient vikings rather than relying on him making a mistake and being surprised that you did something standard. This has been my experience as well. Also, getting colossus early means he has to decide between making medevacs and making vikings. So even if he immediately gets a lot of vikings, it means his MM ball won't have medevac support. Whereas if he already has 5+ medevacs... cutting a few of them and building vikings instead isn't going to make that much of a difference. I haven't played enough games against FEing terrans to have a feel for the timings. Judging by the timings when playing against 1 base push into expand terrans, it seems like it should be possible to do mass gateway units into charge into templar, though? You say that it's just barely late? Would be interesting to see a replay of that. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On December 19 2010 05:40 kcdc wrote: I have to disagree with you on the window where collosi are good. Good Terran players know the timing when collosi will be a threat and will have a starport+reactor ready to go at that time. They won't mass produce vikings until they see your collosi tech, but they'll be actively scouting an ready to ramp up production whenever necessary. That means you have to either hide the fact that you're making collosi or make use of your collosi before he can match you with adequate vikings. Expanding slows down T's tech as much as it does yours. I think it's a good idea to try to hit a timing window where he's unlikely to be able to have sufficient vikings rather than relying on him making a mistake and being surprised that you did something standard. This doesn't make any sense... do you really think you can rely on hitting a good terran with a timing window when they don't have vikings yet? Hoping the terran doesn't scout your tech-rush is the definition of "relying on him making a mistake"! Sure you can sneak some wins against terrans by hiding your colossus tech, but you're trading early game safety for that, and on top of that you're taking the risk that your opponent is actually good and just makes vikings earlier than normal when he figures out what you're doing. If you want to hit a timing window where you have colossi and the terran doesn't have vikings, it should be because you scouted a build that you know has a late starport, or you gained an early game advantage that delays terran's tech, not because you hope he doesn't scout well. On another note, I found a terran rush that seems almost impossible to stop with a fast expo: 18 marines, 2 banshees, 3 tanks, and 10 SCVs at 9 minutes on metalopolis cross position, so even earlier on smaller maps and closer positions. http://replayfu.com/r/427Jzn | ||
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