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On December 02 2010 23:17 LazyMacro wrote:
One question I've been pondering lately (and I'm sorry if it's been covered; I haven't had time to read all 57 pages): How do you decide what buildings and how many to add once you expand?
Sometimes I see a gate and a robo go up, other times it's two or three gates. I know a lot of it is general game sense and intuition coupled with scouting.
I tend to play it safe and work up to three or four gates plus a robo.
I get 3 gates + robo every time unless I'm sure they're not teching. It's safe and leaves your options open. From there, you want to get as much scouting info as you can so that you'll know whether you need to (1) mass gateway units to defend an all-in, (2) get collosi to deal with 2-base MM, or (3) have time to get storm. There's also a chance T will expand without sufficient defense in which case you can get 6 gates and kill him. Gateway units are the quickest but are inefficient as the army sizes grow. Stay on them only if T doesn't expand. Storm is the strongest but takes the longest. Collosi can be used for a timing attack against a 2-base T before they have a lot of vikings and to bridge the gap to storm.
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@zomgad : i saw sanZenith stoping those push with photons at gsl#2 (vs hyperdub)
edit: fail, it's 2 sp+rax.
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From there, you want to get as much scouting info as you can so that you'll know whether you need to (1) mass gateway units to defend an all-in, (2) get collosi to deal with 2-base MM, or (3) have time to get storm
Which means making an obs I guess ?
What's the best way to deal with ghost once we got HT ? And how to deal with those damned PF ? :\
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Don't clump your HT or else they'll get EMPed or sniped by ghosts. Also, I don't do this enough, but a lot of players will use an obs for vision and then feedback/storm ghosts prior to a fight.
I don't attack into a PF unless I have storm or enough collossi to destroy SCVs on repair. PFs aren't THAT good unless they're being repaired. They're still a pain, but when you can just storm their SCVs it's a ton easier.
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On December 03 2010 02:26 SaJa wrote:Show nested quote +From there, you want to get as much scouting info as you can so that you'll know whether you need to (1) mass gateway units to defend an all-in, (2) get collosi to deal with 2-base MM, or (3) have time to get storm Which means making an obs I guess ? What's the best way to deal with ghost once we got HT ? And how to deal with those damned PF ? :\
Obs is important, but you can also get good info from scouting the front.
Best way to play HT vs ghosts is to have lots of observers so you that know where the ghosts are. Spread your HT. Send one or two out front to feedback/storm before the fight. Keep a few behind to come in and storm after T has EMPed. Fight near pylons so that you can warp in storms before the fight is over.
As for PF's, don't fight them head on. Storm drop them and fight anywhere else.
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Mh I have a question I hope someone knows the answer
So apparently the answer to killing scvs reparing thors is to just attack the thor with zealots, then hold position-> zealots attack the scv.
Couldnt you also kill a PF thats being repaired really nicely this way with chargelots?
I'd try it out myself but I just had a long day of work and am way too exhausted to play ^^ and maybe someone knows if it works well already
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On December 02 2010 19:42 s4m222 wrote:I feel there is no need to chrono WG research twice. My additional gateways wont be finished quick enough to make use of this. I agree with 7mk that getting more units out at that point in the game is more important then finishing warpgate research quicker.
Chronoing warpgate research is actually necessary in the majority of builds to achieve optimal production, simply because if you dont time it right you're going to have stuff producing out of gateways after warpgates finished, or you're going to have to wait some time.
The chronoboosts on warpgate research are there to ensure that it finishes within about 5 seconds of the sentry finishing, allowing you to immediately make use of the research and continue to produce efficiently from all production buildings.
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On December 03 2010 07:26 See.Blue wrote:How would this hold up against a delayed banshee build like this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190The OP in that thread is selling his build hard but I feel like being reasonable, off of this opening a toss shold be able to get to chargelot HT in time...
If he's going fe > 4 port banshee you have plenty of time to
1. scout the fe
2. scout 2-4 ports with obs (from going 3 gate robo after fe)/hallucination
and throw down 1-2 stargates and pump phoenix/vr
HTs would have to be really rushed against that build before their first push and phoenix / gw has no trouble holding it (i hate that build though bcuz cloak late game vs protoss with vikings/thors to snipe obs is freaking ridiculous).
Chrono is amazing in situations like these =P.
note that vr's are surprisingly good against bio when supported by Gateway units and decent ff simply by merit of being 6 range and being air (along with their buff), so much so I've found myself doing a lot of phoenix/immortal + mass upgrades for gw units play and skipping colossi to go HT. Also a stargate pretty much counters any drop play and thor/tank transitions and makes you a lot more mobile than having a ball of units.
Its also not like going fe vrs fe and losing is going to have anything to do with going fe
edit: having the stargate also lets go go mothership easier!!1!! or just carriers, which are surprisingly cost efficient against EVERYTHING terran has (laugh at vikings and their 0 health: high cost ratio) when with a gw army.
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On December 03 2010 07:26 See.Blue wrote:How would this hold up against a delayed banshee build like this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190The OP in that thread is selling his build hard but I feel like being reasonable, off of this opening a toss shold be able to get to chargelot HT in time...
His OP says you can 1-rax expand and tech straight to banshees, and that you don't need bunkers to defend if P goes FE. I'm guessing he's never run into P that fast expands into a 6-gate all-in. Maybe some Zerg players should speak up on the issue of Protoss passivity after fast exapnsions. If he's really not building bunkers, the standard 3-gate variant of 1-gate FE will kill him easily.
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On December 03 2010 02:43 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 02:26 SaJa wrote:From there, you want to get as much scouting info as you can so that you'll know whether you need to (1) mass gateway units to defend an all-in, (2) get collosi to deal with 2-base MM, or (3) have time to get storm Which means making an obs I guess ? What's the best way to deal with ghost once we got HT ? And how to deal with those damned PF ? :\ Obs is important, but you can also get good info from scouting the front. Best way to play HT vs ghosts is to have lots of observers so you that know where the ghosts are. Spread your HT. Send one or two out front to feedback/storm before the fight. Keep a few behind to come in and storm after T has EMPed. Fight near pylons so that you can warp in storms before the fight is over. As for PF's, don't fight them head on. Storm drop them and fight anywhere else.
...so you're saying the counter to 1 unit is a heavy gas composition? Although true, I wouldn't make a ton of OBs. I had a 2.4k toss do that to me on jungle, and I didn't counter it right away -- sure does hurt, until I wasted scans and pick off as many OBs as possible as both HTs and OBs are a huge gas sink, so the only other unit he's making? Zeallllots. Churn out blue flamers late game and do like we do vs lings, run around and weaken them up. Force stalkers, ie less HTs. But terrans can also lead up front with a few units to play point, and wait for HTs.
Also -- why not attack a PF? You're saying just let a terran take a 3rd or 4th? Protoss have these sweet units that do more damage than tanks, and can move, and still attack... oh wait the immortal! Storm scvs, and just overwhelm it. We terrans put a LOT into a PF defense.
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Sure, if you have triple T's army and the PF is the closest thing to attack, kill that before you move on. Otherwise, there's almost certainly a better spot to apply pressure.
And by 'lots of observers', I meant enough to know where his units are. If you can get that done with 1 observer, more power to you. I think it's a plus to have ~3 observers and spotter pylons spread to cover drop routes.
And yes, you need a lot of HT if you want to successfully storm against ghosts. Ghosts are intended to be cost-effective against HT. But HT are so ridiculously good against MM that you can afford to have 2 out 3 EMPed and morphed to archons and still come out even on the investment.
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All personal opinion here.
You don't storm ghosts, you storm marines, zealots deal with marauders. You feedback ghosts, if they get hit in storm it's added bonus.
You have this magic unit that can cliff walk and has 9 arc range that can do WELL vs PFs and force a battle, that you can setup a nice attack with a storm or solid battle placement.
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Regarding storm vs ghost and blue flame hellion transitions, one of my first games back as P after a couple weeks as Z turned out to be the most epic SC2 game I've played. It has some HT vs ghost micro, but I'm posting it primarily as an entertaining replay. It was a macro game on Metal with nearly constant engagements and reinforcements until the map was finally mined out. Oddly, I actually felt like I was winning most of the game despite being on average ~20 food behind.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-170926.jpg)
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Oddly, I actually felt like I was winning most of the game despite being on average ~20 food behind.
I generally feel this way whenever i have storm. I dont feel like i need an army advantage to fight confidently.
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We terrans put a LOT into a PF defense.
150-150 ? :p
It's kind of cheap for what it can do (one zeal + one ht cost). We protoss need something like 600 minerals to put 4 photons which will die in a couple of seconds vs maro ^^
What a pf + ghost can do :
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-168702.jpg)
:D
Protoss have these sweet units that do more damage than tanks, and can move, and still attack... oh wait the immortal!
Yeah imo it was the only way to break it but look what immortal do in midgame .. The protoss here is doin' ton of them and it seems that they die quite quickly vs m&m+ghost.. also a friend of mine who's terran told me "make FF around the pf to stop scv". Yeah, but ingame, when you doin' HT, colossus, stalker, you don't really have enough gas to just make FF on the PF especially when it will be consolidated by m&m stuff.
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/39928
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On November 30 2010 10:05 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 15:10 kzn wrote:
A friend of mine uses pretty much the same FE build vT and vZ, although its somewhat different from "the kcdc version" and obviously diverges pretty fast after the nexus completes. I would certainly hope people adapt these strategies from the basis here, since kcdc is at 2k games at 1850. It's a basis, not a step by step walkthrough. You may have to delay to a 2 gate to chrono out some zeal/stalker/sentry to deal with certain all in pushes. The problem many of you have is you stick so ridgidly to this. Terrans have learned how to beat a 1 gate fe. I do many many times, with a simple stim push to banshees. If it doesn't kill the expo, it kills all troops making 4 banshee harass into my 3rd that much easier.
So I switched to Z and discovered that I'm about a 1800 Z player. I don't know builds, I don't know timings, I can't macro....whatever. This is what happened when I switched back to P:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/894392/1/kcdc/matches#filter=solo
19-2. In one of the losses, my comp crashed.
If P plays 1 gate FE perfectly, IMO, T can't win.
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im actually having troubles against p 1 gate FE , and the only games i won vs protos 1 gate fe are the one they made mistakes
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On December 04 2010 07:55 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 10:05 iAmJeffReY wrote:On November 29 2010 15:10 kzn wrote:
A friend of mine uses pretty much the same FE build vT and vZ, although its somewhat different from "the kcdc version" and obviously diverges pretty fast after the nexus completes. I would certainly hope people adapt these strategies from the basis here, since kcdc is at 2k games at 1850. It's a basis, not a step by step walkthrough. You may have to delay to a 2 gate to chrono out some zeal/stalker/sentry to deal with certain all in pushes. The problem many of you have is you stick so ridgidly to this. Terrans have learned how to beat a 1 gate fe. I do many many times, with a simple stim push to banshees. If it doesn't kill the expo, it kills all troops making 4 banshee harass into my 3rd that much easier. So I switched to Z and discovered that I'm about a 1800 Z player. I don't know builds, I don't know timings, I can't macro....whatever. This is what happened when I switched back to P: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/894392/1/kcdc/matches#filter=solo19-2. In one of the losses, my comp crashed. If P plays 1 gate FE perfectly, IMO, T can't win.
Which is damn near impossible to do, due to the amount of attacks we can do to counter a 1 gate FE. I got a new one that is my same stim push, but just happens to be a 4 rax with an FE, and after the stim push comes ghost push at like 10 minute, which is too fast to get collsai out with 1 gate FE.
And not to down you or anything, but I'd hope at almost 50% a player of your level could go 19-2 back with main race. You should continue laddering, see how high up you can go as your ELL raises with your wins. What's the point of stopping ladder and not knowing really how good you truly are?
On any map but jungle basin or any other free expo map, I'd rather see 1 gate FE as I know I got a window of opportunity to expo myself and go along with a nice push.
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On December 04 2010 07:55 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 10:05 iAmJeffReY wrote:On November 29 2010 15:10 kzn wrote:
A friend of mine uses pretty much the same FE build vT and vZ, although its somewhat different from "the kcdc version" and obviously diverges pretty fast after the nexus completes. I would certainly hope people adapt these strategies from the basis here, since kcdc is at 2k games at 1850. It's a basis, not a step by step walkthrough. You may have to delay to a 2 gate to chrono out some zeal/stalker/sentry to deal with certain all in pushes. The problem many of you have is you stick so ridgidly to this. Terrans have learned how to beat a 1 gate fe. I do many many times, with a simple stim push to banshees. If it doesn't kill the expo, it kills all troops making 4 banshee harass into my 3rd that much easier. So I switched to Z and discovered that I'm about a 1800 Z player. I don't know builds, I don't know timings, I can't macro....whatever. This is what happened when I switched back to P: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/894392/1/kcdc/matches#filter=solo19-2. In one of the losses, my comp crashed. If P plays 1 gate FE perfectly, IMO, T can't win.
I'll have to get more info out of my roommate, but he was practicing with some terran in SlayerS (part of the pre-qualifier thing to join SlayerS) who is ~2750 on the korean ladder with 200 games played, so pretty decent, and my roommate said that the terran said if protoss 1 gate FE, then he can beat the protoss every time (not just force nexus cancel), and in fact had my roommate go 1 gate FE and did that build to him, and apparently my roommate was pretty convinced, so he 2 gate robo expands now.
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EPT
