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On November 29 2010 15:10 kzn wrote:
A friend of mine uses pretty much the same FE build vT and vZ, although its somewhat different from "the kcdc version" and obviously diverges pretty fast after the nexus completes.
I would certainly hope people adapt these strategies from the basis here, since kcdc is at 2k games at 1850. It's a basis, not a step by step walkthrough. You may have to delay to a 2 gate to chrono out some zeal/stalker/sentry to deal with certain all in pushes. The problem many of you have is you stick so ridgidly to this. Terrans have learned how to beat a 1 gate fe. I do many many times, with a simple stim push to banshees. If it doesn't kill the expo, it kills all troops making 4 banshee harass into my 3rd that much easier.
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On November 30 2010 07:33 sechkie wrote:
I've been to scared to use this build since the thor repair rush became so popular >.< how does the timing hold up against this?? and what's the correct response? since it's hard to scout it coming since we have a later observer. (Not sure if its been posted)
I've been practicing against the Thor push recently with a practice buddy. The opponent is usually going to open with Barracks + reactor to pump marines.
Your initial scouting with the probe and zealot + stalker should show his tech, if you notice he has no marauders/shell you are free to keep harassing his front. He'll eventually have to throw down a bunker to hope to fend off your harass. If the map is bigger it'll take him a while to walk to your base with the thor (if it isn't a proxy), dance around with the stalkers, try to pick off as many marines as you can.
Proxy Thor can be countered by scouting, you have map control if he's trying to tech, scout, expand and survive.
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On November 30 2010 07:30 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 14:33 Inori wrote:On November 29 2010 07:03 Drazzzt wrote:On November 28 2010 06:39 Inori wrote:On November 26 2010 10:24 Minigun wrote:On November 26 2010 06:00 dionocenies wrote:
This completely fails against a 7 min push. At 7min, you have 2 zealots and 2 stalkers. The terran will push with about 12 marines/4 scvs, or 6 marines/4 mauraders before the expansion kicks in. There is no way to defend this. This may work against gold/silver. The replays you have show noob terrans, that either attack with 2 marauders or wait 10 minutes to attack. I'd like to see some replays that defend against a 7min push. lol okay, well let me say, I am 3100 diamond and this is still the only build I use pvt. no offense but every single time I get on your stream and you play vs T with this strat it ends up with you failing for 2-3 times in a row and then ragequtting stream. You probably see other streams than me !? lol, exactly right now yet again I just logged in, saw his stream, get on to watch it and I see Mini getting raped by Terran after going 1gate FE, again. You probably do see some other stream. Man, it's ridiculous that people expect you to play perfect, every game. Just because I lose, once or twice, doesn't mean the build isn't viable, I just did something wrong, whether it be bad scouting, wrong unit composition, getting supply blocked, not cutting enough probes when an all in is coming, etc, etc, etc. There is so much to account for. At high level play, you have to make VERY few mistakes to pull it off, but if I played perfect, it would hold every time. But it's okay, you don't have to use it  . Comments like these makes me wonder why I turn on the stream in the first place.
Minigun is most definitely correct, aside from a 4rax all-in or perhaps a thor rush, this build is a perfectly viable opening. Note that losing at the 10 minute mark is rarely a product of the FE.
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I am still struggling to understand how this holds up still against aggressive 3rax MM pushes?? their first push, they have stim and concussive shells and on just one gateway i dun know if i can outproduce them?? previously, ppl say that its ok not to outproduce since u can just FF split their army, but if u early expand on 15, its usually fairly wide open (esp on xelnaga) so how do u defend??
Sorry there is just so many posts so not sure if this has been covered...read the first few pages and got confusing after awhile so would like to clear it up.
One thing i was thinking of was how does the building time of marines/marauders compare to zealots/stalkers (and maybe factor in CB)?? maybe some stats might make this more convincing?
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On November 30 2010 14:05 bankai wrote:
I am still struggling to understand how this holds up still against aggressive 3rax MM pushes?? their first push, they have stim and concussive shells and on just one gateway i dun know if i can outproduce them?? previously, ppl say that its ok not to outproduce since u can just FF split their army, but if u early expand on 15, its usually fairly wide open (esp on xelnaga) so how do u defend??
Sorry there is just so many posts so not sure if this has been covered...read the first few pages and got confusing after awhile so would like to clear it up.
One thing i was thinking of was how does the building time of marines/marauders compare to zealots/stalkers (and maybe factor in CB)?? maybe some stats might make this more convincing?
Marines tend to be fairly weak and to die easily to stalkers, and marauders damage can be soaked by a few probes, a 4gate all-in or well played 3rax might take this, but the way the timing works the terran would have to pick a strat blind, because the nexus doesn't go down till 5:15-5:30. And most terrans opt out of 3rax play because of its all-in nature
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On November 30 2010 14:12 SilverBullet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 14:05 bankai wrote:
I am still struggling to understand how this holds up still against aggressive 3rax MM pushes?? their first push, they have stim and concussive shells and on just one gateway i dun know if i can outproduce them?? previously, ppl say that its ok not to outproduce since u can just FF split their army, but if u early expand on 15, its usually fairly wide open (esp on xelnaga) so how do u defend??
Sorry there is just so many posts so not sure if this has been covered...read the first few pages and got confusing after awhile so would like to clear it up.
One thing i was thinking of was how does the building time of marines/marauders compare to zealots/stalkers (and maybe factor in CB)?? maybe some stats might make this more convincing? Marines tend to be fairly weak and to die easily to stalkers, and marauders damage can be soaked by a few probes, a 4gate all-in or well played 3rax might take this, but the way the timing works the terran would have to pick a strat blind, because the nexus doesn't go down till 5:15-5:30. And most terrans opt out of 3rax play because of its all-in nature
Thanks for this. Do you think zealots fair well against marines as well?
So it sounds like your saying you usually need probes to help defend at this stage?
How do the building times on T barrack units compare to P gateway?? Is it possible for P to CB on 1 gateway and stay on par with unit count??
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hi again,
Can someone (with a 'good' lvl ~2k++) post a macro game with kcdc openning vs terran fast exp ? :p
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On November 30 2010 14:05 bankai wrote:
I am still struggling to understand how this holds up still against aggressive 3rax MM pushes?? their first push, they have stim and concussive shells and on just one gateway i dun know if i can outproduce them?? previously, ppl say that its ok not to outproduce since u can just FF split their army, but if u early expand on 15, its usually fairly wide open (esp on xelnaga) so how do u defend??
Sorry there is just so many posts so not sure if this has been covered...read the first few pages and got confusing after awhile so would like to clear it up.
One thing i was thinking of was how does the building time of marines/marauders compare to zealots/stalkers (and maybe factor in CB)?? maybe some stats might make this more convincing?
Page 54 on the bottom I posted a replay to how counter this.
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i've just lost to a 9 minute marine push with about 20 stim pack marines. i saw his push coming, becuase my observer was on the way to his base.
the only thing i could do, was warping in as much stalkers as possible + pulling about 15 probes. probes died in ( i don't exaggerate) 3 seconds and the stalkers could hardly kill 3 or 4 marines.
What else should i have done? Zealots without speed are bullshit against stimpack marines. Colossi or HTs aren't out in time of course and i usually can't scout it anyway.
I feel like this really hard counters 1 gate expand.
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Warp in sentries, abandon the expo, block your ramp, and let him try up your ramp and split his marines, beat it, and go .
I push about the same, and that's so effective because I haven't expoed yet either, and I'm no doubt teching to banshees so youre on 1 base to 1. That push leaves my base with NO units so counter and put him back down as you expo again as you push.
It's not all live or die on the expo. The better you get, the better you learn to sacrifice things to make a game not END right there.
And yes, I feel a 2 rax stim push with reactor rhines stomps all over a 1 gate FE, or as I seem to think, softens it up enough to make the coming marine banshee push all that much more effective.
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rofl at the minigun bashing, he's a great player
last time I saw his PvT he was convincingly beating painuser's 2 rax push on close spots metalopolis with his 1 gateway army.
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On December 01 2010 05:22 7mk wrote:
rofl at the minigun bashing, he's a great player
last time I saw his PvT he was convincingly beating painuser's 2 rax push on close spots metalopolis with his 1 gateway army.
I totally know the game you're talking about. I remember seeing PainUser's army approaching and thinking "no way in hell is Mini gonna be able to stop this...no freaking way." The bastard did. I don't know how the hell he managed to pull it off, but he did. He was microing AND macroing perfectly during that push. It was amazing to see. 90% of other players would have lost that battle.
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If I'm just starting to try to learn this build, what is a good starting build order? I've looked through a bunch of pages in the thread and I haven't seen a recent post with a concrete BO in it. If anyone could post a way to do this I would be much obliged!
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9 pylon (Chrono Probes)
13 gate
14 gas
16 pylon
17 core (save Chrono for units)
19 zealot
21 pylon
<Stalkers>
Expand after 2-3 Chrono Boosted Stalkers, depending on what you scout/if you are pressuring. I like to expand after my 4th pylon at 32-34 supply. After the Nexus goes down, cut Probes and add 3 more Gates. If you are able to scout that he isn't attacking/threatening, you can maintain Probe production while adding Gates. If you suspect tech, add 2 Gates and a Robotics. Take your 2nd gas after you have all the unit producing structures you want/need.
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On December 01 2010 12:47 See.Blue wrote:
If I'm just starting to try to learn this build, what is a good starting build order? I've looked through a bunch of pages in the thread and I haven't seen a recent post with a concrete BO in it. If anyone could post a way to do this I would be much obliged!
9 Pylon
13 Gate -> Scout
15 Assimilator
16 Pylon
18 Core
21 Pylon
21 Stalker (Chrono'd)
23 Warpgate Research (2x Chrono)
25 Stalker
28 Nexus
31 Sentry
32 Gateway
33 Pylon
34 Assimilator
35 Robotics Facility
35 Gateway
[edit] There are obviously things you will scout that will completely end your intention to do the 1gate FE, but if you dont see one of them I have yet to encounter an opening that is better all-round than this.
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On December 01 2010 13:42 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 12:47 See.Blue wrote:
If I'm just starting to try to learn this build, what is a good starting build order? I've looked through a bunch of pages in the thread and I haven't seen a recent post with a concrete BO in it. If anyone could post a way to do this I would be much obliged! 9 Pylon 13 Gate -> Scout 15 Assimilator 16 Pylon 18 Core 21 Pylon 21 Stalker (Chrono'd) 23 Warpgate Research (2x Chrono) 25 Stalker 28 Nexus 31 Sentry 32 Gateway 33 Pylon 34 Assimilator 35 Robotics Facility 35 Gateway [edit] There are obviously things you will scout that will completely end your intention to do the 1gate FE, but if you dont see one of them I have yet to encounter an opening that is better all-round than this.
So what types of things should you be expecting to see after scouting T that would make you not do this 1gate FE?? If so, how do you respond?
Btw, only just noticed that this 1gate FE is stated for PvT. Does it work for Z and P as well?
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On December 01 2010 14:07 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 13:42 kzn wrote:On December 01 2010 12:47 See.Blue wrote:
If I'm just starting to try to learn this build, what is a good starting build order? I've looked through a bunch of pages in the thread and I haven't seen a recent post with a concrete BO in it. If anyone could post a way to do this I would be much obliged! 9 Pylon 13 Gate -> Scout 15 Assimilator 16 Pylon 18 Core 21 Pylon 21 Stalker (Chrono'd) 23 Warpgate Research (2x Chrono) 25 Stalker 28 Nexus 31 Sentry 32 Gateway 33 Pylon 34 Assimilator 35 Robotics Facility 35 Gateway [edit] There are obviously things you will scout that will completely end your intention to do the 1gate FE, but if you dont see one of them I have yet to encounter an opening that is better all-round than this. So what types of things should you be expecting to see after scouting T that would make you not do this 1gate FE?? If so, how do you respond? Btw, only just noticed that this 1gate FE is stated for PvT. Does it work for Z and P as well?
probably map positions and map. i saw mini FE on steppes after scouting 4 rax (generally not a good idea) but he is a fucking boss and almost held it (was seriously like 2 units from winning) and even got the expo up which i thought he'd just get rolled over. you can do a surprisingly well with a little chrono boost and probe sacrifice :D i've been loving this build so much lately and i just flip flop the gates and the nexus pvz now unless i can nexus first. the best thing is just to use it and learn yourself by trial and error. that's always better than reading it on a forum then being frustrated as most people will make this build there own instead of following it strictly by food count. just make sure you know what you are going to do and adapt as you go. generally my thoughts are i want to get a zealot and 2 stalkers then push out with those while i throw the nexus down. typically between 30-34, sometimes it changes but it is strictly situational and for the most part i start every game with that stage, then the next stage would follow after i've determined what the opponent is doing. do not ever count out that 3 unit push, a zealot and 2 stalkers can cause a lot of chaos if the player is not expecting it. also, it can stall to get your gateways up and you can check if there is a bunker in which case get your robo up ASAP.
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On December 01 2010 14:07 bankai wrote:
So what types of things should you be expecting to see after scouting T that would make you not do this 1gate FE?? If so, how do you respond?
Btw, only just noticed that this 1gate FE is stated for PvT. Does it work for Z and P as well?
A friend of mine uses something similar (without the robo, I think) PvZ.
As far as scouting:
If I see 2 rax with my scout probe, I'm going straight to a 3gate robo or defensive 4gate, let alone if I see 3.
If I see no gas, or gas and a reactor, I'm going to delay it until I have guardian shield at least, probably beyond (although I'm also going to check for a nogas expansion).
Everything else I'm fairly convinced can be held as long as your macro doesn't slip, you react properly to what you scout, and you scout consistently even after the initial probe.
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if your micro is good vs 1 rax you are the aggressor minimal micro needed on your part defense wise
vs 2 rax you will be on defense but fairly safe. some micro needed but nothing to intense unless terran is VERY very diligent then you will have to be just as
If you see a 3 rax very early it will be quite a challenge but still possible, cut probes and get 4 gateways up ASAP. you will need to micro near perfectly.
usually though they can kill your probe right around their time their 2nd rax goes up, so you really dont know if its a 2 rax pressure into FE, or 3/4 rax. So with your initial zealot poke / then trade for your stalker since zealot is slow, and continue poking and assess army size so you know if you need to go 4 gate with delayed robo(pump more units before robo) or if they are doing slight pressure into FE, in which case you can go 3 gate robo, and tech a bit faster.
I personally have only run into 4 or 5 rax all in once... and i didnt react properly and got ROLLED. Like i could be God of micro / 500 apm S class control but still rolled lol. (i should have macro'ed harder)
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What I notice, many ppl still fail to realize that there are all-ins where it's PERFECTLY OK to abandon the expo - as a matter of fact, killing the nexus may buy you time to get, say, the 2nd immortal out vs a thor-rush. The 1 gate FE is supposed to put you on even (or better) footing against terrans who play a standard macro-game. Because 1 a standard 2 gate robo is economicly significantly weaker than a 2 rax expand from terran - this is a fact!
But it does NOT mean you have to defend your Nexus vs stupid all-ins at all cost, it may be (depending on the respective push) perfectly fine to pull back, let the terran feel confident for killing your nexus and get more units.
Here there's one very important thing that you have to keep in mind: DO NOT build your frickin tech-buildings DOWN below. I can't say enough how stupid it is to even build more than ONE pylon down at your expo before your observer has confirmed that terran goes macro. Because THEN of course, yes, you lose when you lose all buildings down your ramp. Tbh I see even pro-gamers build important buildings at weak spots (like behind the natural mineral line where they can be taken out by marauder-drops easily), tech-building placement is extremely important in PvT, especially when you 1 gate FE.
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EPT
