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On December 01 2010 13:42 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 12:47 See.Blue wrote:
If I'm just starting to try to learn this build, what is a good starting build order? I've looked through a bunch of pages in the thread and I haven't seen a recent post with a concrete BO in it. If anyone could post a way to do this I would be much obliged! 9 Pylon 13 Gate -> Scout 15 Assimilator 16 Pylon 18 Core 21 Pylon 21 Stalker (Chrono'd) 23 Warpgate Research (2x Chrono) 25 Stalker 28 Nexus 31 Sentry 32 Gateway 33 Pylon 34 Assimilator 35 Robotics Facility 35 Gateway [edit] There are obviously things you will scout that will completely end your intention to do the 1gate FE, but if you dont see one of them I have yet to encounter an opening that is better all-round than this.
Thanks so much! One question, when should I drop a forge and start upgrades and what upgrades are best vs T? I'd assume post-defending any sort of T push, but loosely after, what should my priorities be? Or should I just be reacting to T
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Yeah same questions. I don't really know when i can spend 200-200 for charge or when do i have to make storm before colossus.
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On November 30 2010 10:05 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 15:10 kzn wrote:
A friend of mine uses pretty much the same FE build vT and vZ, although its somewhat different from "the kcdc version" and obviously diverges pretty fast after the nexus completes. I would certainly hope people adapt these strategies from the basis here, since kcdc is at 2k games at 1850. It's a basis, not a step by step walkthrough. You may have to delay to a 2 gate to chrono out some zeal/stalker/sentry to deal with certain all in pushes. The problem many of you have is you stick so ridgidly to this. Terrans have learned how to beat a 1 gate fe. I do many many times, with a simple stim push to banshees. If it doesn't kill the expo, it kills all troops making 4 banshee harass into my 3rd that much easier.
You realize I've switched to Z, right? I fell all the way down to 1600 when I switched. When I was around 2k as P a few weeks ago, I was winning almost every PvT I played despite them all knowing my opening. I just couldn't win PvZ consistently after the zealot nerf + roach buff. Don't let my rating as a Zerg player color your view on 1-gate FE in PvT....
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@kcdc: plexa's topic about PvZ is rly good.
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On December 02 2010 01:22 See.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 13:42 kzn wrote:On December 01 2010 12:47 See.Blue wrote:
If I'm just starting to try to learn this build, what is a good starting build order? I've looked through a bunch of pages in the thread and I haven't seen a recent post with a concrete BO in it. If anyone could post a way to do this I would be much obliged! 9 Pylon 13 Gate -> Scout 15 Assimilator 16 Pylon 18 Core 21 Pylon 21 Stalker (Chrono'd) 23 Warpgate Research (2x Chrono) 25 Stalker 28 Nexus 31 Sentry 32 Gateway 33 Pylon 34 Assimilator 35 Robotics Facility 35 Gateway [edit] There are obviously things you will scout that will completely end your intention to do the 1gate FE, but if you dont see one of them I have yet to encounter an opening that is better all-round than this. Thanks so much! One question, when should I drop a forge and start upgrades and what upgrades are best vs T? I'd assume post-defending any sort of T push, but loosely after, what should my priorities be? Or should I just be reacting to T
i favor armor first pvt, weapon first pvz.
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Personally, in PvsZ I'm making the same as minigun => 1 zealot+ 1 stalker rush + rally stalky and then fast expo + wall robotic and I adapt my composition to win the zerg (immortal vs roaches, colossus vs hydras, blink vs mutas) afer a little rush to push him to make glings instead of teching/drone too quickly.
Armor upgrads vs terran is maybe not that good since medievac heals 16hp/sec and the planetay fortress is too strong when repaired, without strong damage you don't make effective army.
Attack upgrade can fixe it much better (imo).
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This is a PvT thread, but honestly, as Z, the only P unit that gives me trouble is void rays. Roaches beat everything else. Well, they don't beat mass immortal, but you can open roaches and survive long enough against immortals to transition into something else.
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On December 01 2010 17:51 sleepingdog wrote:
What I notice, many ppl still fail to realize that there are all-ins where it's PERFECTLY OK to abandon the expo - as a matter of fact, killing the nexus may buy you time to get, say, the 2nd immortal out vs a thor-rush. The 1 gate FE is supposed to put you on even (or better) footing against terrans who play a standard macro-game. Because 1 a standard 2 gate robo is economicly significantly weaker than a 2 rax expand from terran - this is a fact!
But it does NOT mean you have to defend your Nexus vs stupid all-ins at all cost, it may be (depending on the respective push) perfectly fine to pull back, let the terran feel confident for killing your nexus and get more units.
Here there's one very important thing that you have to keep in mind: DO NOT build your frickin tech-buildings DOWN below. I can't say enough how stupid it is to even build more than ONE pylon down at your expo before your observer has confirmed that terran goes macro. Because THEN of course, yes, you lose when you lose all buildings down your ramp. Tbh I see even pro-gamers build important buildings at weak spots (like behind the natural mineral line where they can be taken out by marauder-drops easily), tech-building placement is extremely important in PvT, especially when you 1 gate FE.
Hmm...interesting concept. Do you mind explaining to me more the logic of why its ok to lose the expo if terran does an all-in (and by all in im guessing u mean like a 3 or 4 rax push, or thor push)? Is it because i get more CB and more mining for a period of time that accelerates me??
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On December 02 2010 09:44 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 17:51 sleepingdog wrote:
What I notice, many ppl still fail to realize that there are all-ins where it's PERFECTLY OK to abandon the expo - as a matter of fact, killing the nexus may buy you time to get, say, the 2nd immortal out vs a thor-rush. The 1 gate FE is supposed to put you on even (or better) footing against terrans who play a standard macro-game. Because 1 a standard 2 gate robo is economicly significantly weaker than a 2 rax expand from terran - this is a fact!
But it does NOT mean you have to defend your Nexus vs stupid all-ins at all cost, it may be (depending on the respective push) perfectly fine to pull back, let the terran feel confident for killing your nexus and get more units.
Here there's one very important thing that you have to keep in mind: DO NOT build your frickin tech-buildings DOWN below. I can't say enough how stupid it is to even build more than ONE pylon down at your expo before your observer has confirmed that terran goes macro. Because THEN of course, yes, you lose when you lose all buildings down your ramp. Tbh I see even pro-gamers build important buildings at weak spots (like behind the natural mineral line where they can be taken out by marauder-drops easily), tech-building placement is extremely important in PvT, especially when you 1 gate FE. Hmm...interesting concept. Do you mind explaining to me more the logic of why its ok to lose the expo if terran does an all-in (and by all in im guessing u mean like a 3 or 4 rax push, or thor push)? Is it because i get more CB and more mining for a period of time that accelerates me??
That, and you can save the workers you've made so as soon as you remake your expansion you'll be mining at a good saturation. Also, at that point your robo and 3 gates will be done so all of your production remains intact and you can continue teching from where you left off. Most early terran attacks are powerful because protoss doesn't have all of their tech finished yet, so if you can be on 1 base vs 1 base with more workers and your tech almost finished you're in a pretty good position.
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On December 01 2010 13:42 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 12:47 See.Blue wrote:
If I'm just starting to try to learn this build, what is a good starting build order? I've looked through a bunch of pages in the thread and I haven't seen a recent post with a concrete BO in it. If anyone could post a way to do this I would be much obliged! 9 Pylon 13 Gate -> Scout 15 Assimilator 16 Pylon 18 Core 21 Pylon 21 Stalker (Chrono'd) 23 Warpgate Research (2x Chrono) 25 Stalker 28 Nexus 31 Sentry 32 Gateway 33 Pylon 34 Assimilator 35 Robotics Facility 35 Gateway [edit] There are obviously things you will scout that will completely end your intention to do the 1gate FE, but if you dont see one of them I have yet to encounter an opening that is better all-round than this.
hmpf I dont know man isnt that a bit unsafe to only have one chronoboost on your gateway.
Even though the warpgate research also means eventually getting units out faster I feel better when chronoboosting out more stalkers rather than chronoboosting the warpgate research.
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On December 02 2010 16:40 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 13:42 kzn wrote:On December 01 2010 12:47 See.Blue wrote:
If I'm just starting to try to learn this build, what is a good starting build order? I've looked through a bunch of pages in the thread and I haven't seen a recent post with a concrete BO in it. If anyone could post a way to do this I would be much obliged! 9 Pylon 13 Gate -> Scout 15 Assimilator 16 Pylon 18 Core 21 Pylon 21 Stalker (Chrono'd) 23 Warpgate Research (2x Chrono) 25 Stalker 28 Nexus 31 Sentry 32 Gateway 33 Pylon 34 Assimilator 35 Robotics Facility 35 Gateway [edit] There are obviously things you will scout that will completely end your intention to do the 1gate FE, but if you dont see one of them I have yet to encounter an opening that is better all-round than this. hmpf I dont know man isnt that a bit unsafe to only have one chronoboost on your gateway. Even though the warpgate research also means eventually getting units out faster I feel better when chronoboosting out more stalkers rather than chronoboosting the warpgate research.
There isn't a single possible rush that will hit before you have sufficient units to deal with it out of that 1 gateway that cannot be scouted.
If you scout such a build, then you obviously have to diverge, but at best spending all your chronos on the gateway will give you one more unit, and it will pretty much have to be a zealot unless you want to sacrifice the sentry (which is, in my opinion, absolutely essential).
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23 Warpgate Research (2x Chrono)
I feel there is no need to chrono WG research twice. My additional gateways wont be finished quick enough to make use of this. I agree with 7mk that getting more units out at that point in the game is more important then finishing warpgate research quicker.
I Chrono nexus twice then save energy (If i feel for some reason terran isnt going to be aggressive, or we have long distance positions, ill chrono nexus 3 times, then skip chrono'ing warpgate research since the long rush distance makes up for the timing for warpgate research.)
*Chrono zealot - ill still have some energy left
wait 5-7 seconds as zealot finishes before cybercore does
*Chrono first stalker - And *warpgate research once. <--- the single chrono makes sure warpgate research finishes right around when additional gates finish so it helps timing - esp with close positions. (at least when i execute the FE cleanly)
*Chrono 2nd stalker
*Chrono 3rd stalker or make nexus - judgement call
Expand - around 29-33 food whenever your hit 400 mineral while making units from your single gateway * Do not que up units after 2nd stalker, make each unit as the previous one finishes or it will slow down your nexus*
Build additional gateways(make a *chrono sentry your should have excess gas and will need your minerals for gate also this sentry will have enough energy for guardian shield when terran first push/poke arrives) - If terran looks to pressure/pushes out cut probes and get gateways asap, if not chrono probes and get gateways as you have money and toss a robo up.
The above is when terran will push out. They will either be doing a push into expand or rally to your base push.
If I chrono WG research twice it will finish ahead of my additional gateways but likely while im making a unit from my single gate. So i would have to wait for that unit to finish to change to WG
If a terran is pressuring, after my first zealot / stalker harass terran will push out causing me to retreat (always with marauder/ if its a marine push micro your stalker and terran cant push out effectively till he has alot) My warpgate research and additional gateways finish while they are pushing to me, or when they arrive at my natural if its close positions. I should have 1 zealot, 2 stalkers, 1 sentry with energy for guardian shield. Pull Back to choke and let them hit the nexus while you warp in from your gateways, then push them out.(chrono your warpgates if terran is rallying to you) Terran at this point cannot keep up with your unit production and will have to retreat or lose their army.
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this is not your build its called a 1 gate Fe its been around for months
User was warned for this post
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On December 02 2010 22:23 Phill3593 wrote:
this is not your build its called a 1 gate Fe its been around for months
Um...
I'm 99% sure kcdc is the one who made it popular.
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On December 02 2010 22:40 LazyMacro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 22:23 Phill3593 wrote:
this is not your build its called a 1 gate Fe its been around for months
Um... I'm 99% sure kcdc is the one who made it popular.
Also he stated multiple times that he just called it "kcdc" because he described HIS build and didn't refer to a specific build others may be doing (which they did of course but this doesn't matter at all).
For the chrono-boost and warpgates: all that matters is the scouting-intel you get. If you "think" he is going to push you hard with early marine/marauder/scv then you need every unit you can get. Therefore chrono-boost the hell out of your single gateway. If you think he goes for a 3 rax you need 4 gates and chrono boost warpgate research - the push won't hit "immediately" but for when it hits you need 4 warpgates ready ASAP.
If you have scouted a wall and have no idea what he's doing I normally go for one gate one robo and chrono probes and my observer - I've literally NEVER been 3 rax pushed after I scouted a wall and just marines with my initial stalker, mostly they did a thor-push (early robotics needed) or rushed for cloak (early robotics needed).
1 gate FE is stable, but you still need to draw the right conclusions after scouting early, otherwise you are up for a build order loss that hasn't much to do with the FE but with your follow-up.
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On December 02 2010 22:23 Phill3593 wrote:
this is not your build its called a 1 gate Fe its been around for months
User was warned for this post
There are lots of ways to 1 gate FE. If the thread title offends you, think of this thread as my take on 1 gate FE. Also, if you read the early replies, you'll see that 1 gate FE was unconventional when I posted this in August. I'm not saying nobody did it before me, but it wasn't mainstream. I also consider this build to be safe even if T knows you're doing it. That's probably controversial still today.
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I watched as mini did this every game vs terran and I started to copy him, it works so great! Just found this thread but really this tactic is awesom and strongly recommended.
Glhf!
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On December 02 2010 22:23 Phill3593 wrote:
this is not your build its called a 1 gate Fe its been around for months
User was warned for this post
Of course it's been around for months. You do realize that kcdc started this thread way back in August right?
There's been a lot of variations to the PvT FE, but this has definitely been my favorite, and is still one of my staple builds even as I'm working my way above 2k. Big props to kcdc. I owe this guy a lot. ^_^
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One question I've been pondering lately (and I'm sorry if it's been covered; I haven't had time to read all 57 pages): How do you decide what buildings and how many to add once you expand?
Sometimes I see a gate and a robo go up, other times it's two or three gates. I know a lot of it is general game sense and intuition coupled with scouting.
I tend to play it safe and work up to three or four gates plus a robo.
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still dont know how to stop polt timing attack with that build, my obs enters terrans base and i ususally see raven, banshee is on way to my base, im supposed to make starport and zeal/sentry but i have to summon stalkers to stop initial harass and thats what they want cuz stalkers suck vs this push, when i play terran i usually do the push (jinro style) with raven, 2 banshees marines and marauders (stim/shield upgraded already) + 1 medivac and and no protss who FE'd actually managed to save his expansion, not to mention theres also 3-1-2 which is also ridiculously strong and hard to scout (hi raven) and seperate from "normal" polt timing attack where i need to make more than 1-2 fenixes to stop it.
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EPT
