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On January 23 2011 01:22 travis wrote:
I think it can be hard to beat 2starport banshee with this build if they don't make a bunker at their ramp. Have to anticipate they might try to bring rax aggression so u have to delay ur obs a bit. then ur obs comes out and if u send it their banshee gets there and messes you up. if you keep it u can delay the banshee harrass but u don't know it's 2port and i think we all know how gateway units do vs 2port banshee when u don't have any phoenixes. especially if they throw in a raven.
ive held it off with purely gateway units. Its a bitch though and you have to cut some probes in order to get an optimum number of zeals and stalkers.
I use this build a lot, and I have yet to grow out of it. However, i do tend to be a bit more careful against some players on close positions. Normally, i pressure with zeal and stalker first to see, as in the guide, if there is a bunker. If he doesnt seem to be applying pressure at this time, and i didnt see a bunker, i send a scouting probe a tad later to see if i scout and see marines and no marauder, even if they dont have bunker, i tend to throw the robo asap. Might be a bit risky if the other player is going for standard 3 rax push, but they mostly will show the marauders. If it's 1rax expand, i'm already teched and if it's banshee, well i'm already teched as well.
About the whole marine/tank push, i haven't really had much problems with these composition. I tend to be able to micro my stalkers to get the tank(s) on the first push while the zeals deal with the marines.
Finally, about the blue flame hellions... i haven't had a real problem with this, since i mainly go stalker with this build and zeals just for tanking up some damage. Again, if you are already getting the robo because of scouting (be it bunker or just a few marines), you get inmortals and fend it off.
I am a not an pro player (2600-2700ish master protoss) but i'd say my use of this build is good. What i have been having some trouble is keeping a harrass centric terran away (might just be my unit positioning and multitasking though).
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I've stopped using this build on lots of maps/spawns because i find it to hard to hold while still being able to get my economy up. Versus alot of pushes I find that I have to cut so many probes that the expansion hardly pays off for me, numerous occasions I found myself with about 25 probes for example when the nexus finishes and I wondered:
"Hmm I can't even maynard yet as i just reached the first level of saturation on my main and I got trouble making double probe's while also defending against potential pushes". Also the late observer time really makes it iffy to counter some pushes sometimes as you really have to guess alot from what you see at their ramp, there are so many T pushes that I have difficulty knowing which one they do exactly. For example a tech lab rax with a marauder indicates a MM push 90% of the time but sometimes they have that fake build where they go a raven banshee push with 1 or 2 marauders, etc.
On small maps / close spawns I've therefore switched to some variation of the NSPgenius gate-robo-gate safe opening (i scout later and get a zealot while the core is building). The early observer is really nice and though it does expand a lot later you don't have to cut probes at all and by the time your nexus finish you can maynard 10+ probes putting you in the same situation often as you would have expanded earlier imo. The build has a weakness that it can't pressure T expo's though which is why I don't do it at big maps.
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On January 23 2011 01:22 travis wrote:
I think it can be hard to beat 2starport banshee with this build if they don't make a bunker at their ramp. Have to anticipate they might try to bring rax aggression so u have to delay ur obs a bit. then ur obs comes out and if u send it their banshee gets there and messes you up. if you keep it u can delay the banshee harrass but u don't know it's 2port and i think we all know how gateway units do vs 2port banshee when u don't have any phoenixes. especially if they throw in a raven.
i think it can be hard to beat this build if you are going 2 port with no bunker at your ramp. first 3 unit push > 5-6 marines easy with no bunker.
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On January 23 2011 01:53 Markwerf wrote:
I've stopped using this build on lots of maps/spawns because i find it to hard to hold while still being able to get my economy up. Versus alot of pushes I find that I have to cut so many probes that the expansion hardly pays off for me, numerous occasions I found myself with about 25 probes for example when the nexus finishes and I wondered:
"Hmm I can't even maynard yet as i just reached the first level of saturation on my main and I got trouble making double probe's while also defending against potential pushes". Also the late observer time really makes it iffy to counter some pushes sometimes as you really have to guess alot from what you see at their ramp, there are so many T pushes that I have difficulty knowing which one they do exactly. For example a tech lab rax with a marauder indicates a MM push 90% of the time but sometimes they have that fake build where they go a raven banshee push with 1 or 2 marauders, etc.
On small maps / close spawns I've therefore switched to some variation of the NSPgenius gate-robo-gate safe opening (i scout later and get a zealot while the core is building). The early observer is really nice and though it does expand a lot later you don't have to cut probes at all and by the time your nexus finish you can maynard 10+ probes putting you in the same situation often as you would have expanded earlier imo. The build has a weakness that it can't pressure T expo's though which is why I don't do it at big maps.
Yeah, on close-spawn Terran can put so much pressure on you that you will have to make a lot of units and therefore be unable to double chrono-boost probes. 
However, on close-air and cross-positions, this build is godly.
Also, you can easily scout the front most of the time. If you only see 1/2 marauders, but you see a bunker, it's going to be some kind of raven push. If you see more marauders + slow, almost 99% of the time it's an MM push. You don't need an observer to scout.
You usually easily find out if it's a MM push by your 9/12 probe scout or the zealot/stalker, as you'll be able to see a 2nd rax or a fact.
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On January 23 2011 02:06 zyglrox wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 01:22 travis wrote:
I think it can be hard to beat 2starport banshee with this build if they don't make a bunker at their ramp. Have to anticipate they might try to bring rax aggression so u have to delay ur obs a bit. then ur obs comes out and if u send it their banshee gets there and messes you up. if you keep it u can delay the banshee harrass but u don't know it's 2port and i think we all know how gateway units do vs 2port banshee when u don't have any phoenixes. especially if they throw in a raven. i think it can be hard to beat this build if you are going 2 port with no bunker at your ramp. first 3 unit push > 5-6 marines easy with no bunker.
no half decent player in their right mind is going to try to push up the terran ramp when the terran hasn't expod and u have no clue what they are doing. there could be marauders with concussive at the top of that ramp
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On January 21 2011 01:36 lGy wrote:
i've consistantly beaten this build (including kcdc) using tank marine push with micro.. even on big maps
Yea, it's hard to go head to head with marine + tank. Thus, to abuse the lack of mobility, you're supposed to get a warp prism and kill all of terran's scvs. So, while you keep forcefielding your ramp, you're going to be ahead. Once you have 6 sentries, it's just a matter of getting collosus out. (However, your base is going to be scv less, so basically it might be over unelss you pull back).
Basically, there's a way to do everything from this build, but dont' hesitate to sacrafice your expo.
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On January 23 2011 02:20 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 02:06 zyglrox wrote:On January 23 2011 01:22 travis wrote:
I think it can be hard to beat 2starport banshee with this build if they don't make a bunker at their ramp. Have to anticipate they might try to bring rax aggression so u have to delay ur obs a bit. then ur obs comes out and if u send it their banshee gets there and messes you up. if you keep it u can delay the banshee harrass but u don't know it's 2port and i think we all know how gateway units do vs 2port banshee when u don't have any phoenixes. especially if they throw in a raven. i think it can be hard to beat this build if you are going 2 port with no bunker at your ramp. first 3 unit push > 5-6 marines easy with no bunker. no half decent player in their right mind is going to try to push up the terran ramp when the terran hasn't expod and u have no clue what they are doing. there could be marauders with concussive at the top of that ramp
(Assuming one rax) If my initial zealot/stalker see only 3-4 marines, I'll try to push, probably get repelled by the extra marine from the rax or by some scv pulling. I may (usually in my experience) have scouted the factory at this point, atleast expecting 1-1-1. I usually tend to send a probe up about half a minute to a minute later, and if you don't see marauders nor a bunker and only marines from 1 rax, you should be able to get into his base to scout.
I'll agree it's definitly hard to scout, and I haven't played against a double port banshee build yet (when doing a 1gate FE) but it should be scoutable and met in the same way as a 1port (cloaked) banshee. You definitly can't recklessly push up their ramp, but sending a probe in abit after your initial zeal/stalker can give you alot of information (or confirmation on your thoughts).
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This build seems to be weak to a gasless expand by the terran player. He'll expo before you do, and the 4rax stim timing push will likely roll up the expo.
However, with good force fields I think this build can hold a 3-rax. Minigun has said he'll always gate core expo vs terran, as he can hold anything the terran throws at him.
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On January 23 2011 02:54 ozymandias170 wrote:
This build seems to be weak to a gasless expand by the terran player. He'll expo before you do, and the 4rax stim timing push will likely roll up the expo.
However, with good force fields I think this build can hold a 3-rax. Minigun has said he'll always gate core expo vs terran, as he can hold anything the terran throws at him.
Probe/Zealot/Stalker can take on many marines. Bunkers can easily be denied if you catch them early enough, too.
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On January 23 2011 02:20 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 02:06 zyglrox wrote:On January 23 2011 01:22 travis wrote:
I think it can be hard to beat 2starport banshee with this build if they don't make a bunker at their ramp. Have to anticipate they might try to bring rax aggression so u have to delay ur obs a bit. then ur obs comes out and if u send it their banshee gets there and messes you up. if you keep it u can delay the banshee harrass but u don't know it's 2port and i think we all know how gateway units do vs 2port banshee when u don't have any phoenixes. especially if they throw in a raven. i think it can be hard to beat this build if you are going 2 port with no bunker at your ramp. first 3 unit push > 5-6 marines easy with no bunker. no half decent player in their right mind is going to try to push up the terran ramp when the terran hasn't expod and u have no clue what they are doing. there could be marauders with concussive at the top of that ramp
thanks for the laugh
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I used to really like this build and it was the only build I used for a while. However, everyone does this build and any good terran is going to know how to respond to it.
Some weaknesses I have encountered during this entire time include
1) just a simple MM/scv pull before your warpgate research finishes, transition into bunker rush/bunker contain. They can even take the gold to be fancy haha.
2) Banshee/MM one-base. This is not hard to hold if you know the timing of their attack. But you don't know when they are coming: A fast 8 minute push? Or a delayed 12 minute? Or somewhere in between? Your response has to be different for each one and I don't know how to obtain this intel. Let me explain.. You want to pump gateway/zealot heavy if they are coming soon (8 min) but if they wait until 12 minutes to attack, they will have so much MM that all your zealots melt once they hit stim and it would have been much better if you went for colossus.
I have had much more success PvT using aggressive builds like MC does, and if I want to FE to throw off my opponent in the series I just go 16 nexus like MaNa showed us. Of course I have not completely abandoned this build. Although it is in the middle between a FE and aggressive opener, it's strength is that it looks exactly like a 4 gate, and you can take your second gas as a fake too. Just be sure to deny scv scouts.
Also if anyone can help me with the 2 problems I talked about above I would be grateful. (Masters 3000+)
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On January 23 2011 04:07 zyglrox wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 02:20 travis wrote:On January 23 2011 02:06 zyglrox wrote:On January 23 2011 01:22 travis wrote:
I think it can be hard to beat 2starport banshee with this build if they don't make a bunker at their ramp. Have to anticipate they might try to bring rax aggression so u have to delay ur obs a bit. then ur obs comes out and if u send it their banshee gets there and messes you up. if you keep it u can delay the banshee harrass but u don't know it's 2port and i think we all know how gateway units do vs 2port banshee when u don't have any phoenixes. especially if they throw in a raven. i think it can be hard to beat this build if you are going 2 port with no bunker at your ramp. first 3 unit push > 5-6 marines easy with no bunker. no half decent player in their right mind is going to try to push up the terran ramp when the terran hasn't expod and u have no clue what they are doing. there could be marauders with concussive at the top of that ramp thanks for the laugh
u realize we are talking about off of a fast expansion, right?
im sorry but if u do that with the tiny army u have that is supposed to help fend off early aggression, you are asking to lose the game every single time vs multiple raxes
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On January 23 2011 04:48 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 04:07 zyglrox wrote:On January 23 2011 02:20 travis wrote:On January 23 2011 02:06 zyglrox wrote:On January 23 2011 01:22 travis wrote:
I think it can be hard to beat 2starport banshee with this build if they don't make a bunker at their ramp. Have to anticipate they might try to bring rax aggression so u have to delay ur obs a bit. then ur obs comes out and if u send it their banshee gets there and messes you up. if you keep it u can delay the banshee harrass but u don't know it's 2port and i think we all know how gateway units do vs 2port banshee when u don't have any phoenixes. especially if they throw in a raven. i think it can be hard to beat this build if you are going 2 port with no bunker at your ramp. first 3 unit push > 5-6 marines easy with no bunker. no half decent player in their right mind is going to try to push up the terran ramp when the terran hasn't expod and u have no clue what they are doing. there could be marauders with concussive at the top of that ramp thanks for the laugh u realize we are talking about off of a fast expansion, right? im sorry but if u do that with the tiny army u have that is supposed to help fend off early aggression, you are asking to lose the game every single time vs multiple raxes
There's a reason this build > 3 rax, 4 rax, 5 rax stim/conc without SCV's.
Also, you CAN go up the ramp. Probe/Zealot/Stalker > 2 Marines + Conc-Marauder.
You scout the front and then figure out what they're doing by using good scouting skills.
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This build doesn't counter 3,4,5 rax Terran.
Travis is right, you can poke, but the initial two units don't kill all of his at the ramp.
You will probably lose your zealot if he's paying attention, maybe even your stalker.
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I've been doing this build with alot of success against really vicious tank marine pushes. It's my only PvT these days.
If they cut scvs they can show up with a tank and a ball of marines 10 seconds before warpgate tech finished.
Micro your probes behind the marines, crush with zealots while stalkers kill the tank.
Also, if you think you can say with confidence the T isn't expanding behind a cloaked banshee and you have an easy 3rd to take, try skipping the robo and getting council for chargelots into templar
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On January 23 2011 05:08 Raggydiaper wrote:
This build doesn't counter 3,4,5 rax Terran.
Travis is right, you can poke, but the initial two units don't kill all of his at the ramp.
You will probably lose your zealot if he's paying attention, maybe even your stalker.
Yeah, the most STANDARD builds are better than this build. That's obviously why Minigun uses this build against every damn Terran he plays against..
You lose a zealot, he loses 2 marines. Good trade. You delayed a push by a nice while.
Of course the initial two units doesn't kill all the units at the ramp. That's a really ignorant statement. Why would a zealot+stalker finish the game? *facepalm*
The longer you delay his MM push, the better, and you can do that by trading the 1st zealot. You can EASILY run your stalker away if you suspect that you're going to lose. Also, you usually should bring a probe along to tank damage and to allow you to have a better escaping chance.
Please don't assume things so quickly.
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On January 23 2011 04:51 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 04:48 travis wrote:On January 23 2011 04:07 zyglrox wrote:On January 23 2011 02:20 travis wrote:On January 23 2011 02:06 zyglrox wrote:On January 23 2011 01:22 travis wrote:
I think it can be hard to beat 2starport banshee with this build if they don't make a bunker at their ramp. Have to anticipate they might try to bring rax aggression so u have to delay ur obs a bit. then ur obs comes out and if u send it their banshee gets there and messes you up. if you keep it u can delay the banshee harrass but u don't know it's 2port and i think we all know how gateway units do vs 2port banshee when u don't have any phoenixes. especially if they throw in a raven. i think it can be hard to beat this build if you are going 2 port with no bunker at your ramp. first 3 unit push > 5-6 marines easy with no bunker. no half decent player in their right mind is going to try to push up the terran ramp when the terran hasn't expod and u have no clue what they are doing. there could be marauders with concussive at the top of that ramp thanks for the laugh u realize we are talking about off of a fast expansion, right? im sorry but if u do that with the tiny army u have that is supposed to help fend off early aggression, you are asking to lose the game every single time vs multiple raxes There's a reason this build > 3 rax, 4 rax, 5 rax stim/conc without SCV's. Also, you CAN go up the ramp. Probe/Zealot/Stalker > 2 Marines + Conc-Marauder. You scout the front and then figure out what they're doing by using good scouting skills.
thanks, thought this was common sense but i guess not. anyways, if you micro poorly can always just dump your zealot and get your 2 stalkers out. were talking about the time in the game were terran has 2-4 bio units and your general purpose is mainly to see if there is a bunker or a tech lab ect. i've actually won a few games with those 3 units against really crappy fast banshee builds because he skimped on proper defense. if they went fast conc thats useful information at the cost of a zealot. you shouldn't really be able to lose anything more than 1 zealot if you micro if poorly because like i said if he comes at you your zealot will need to be kited which enables you to get your stalker out. if he's going uber fast marauders with conc he could just hit the zealot once and chase your stalkers but this requires you to faulter and it is more of a problem of your multitasking and micro than the actual idea of your poke. it's not an attack to do damage it's mainly for scouting and it's essential in this build as i have friends that are trying to learn this and they constantly forget to do this or just flat out attack and lose these units.
yes, your point on early game defense is exact. if you lose these units you are in for trouble if your facing any kind of fast bio pressure because usually if they are cutting workers you will probably half only a handful of units.
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On January 23 2011 04:48 W2 wrote:
I used to really like this build and it was the only build I used for a while. However, everyone does this build and any good terran is going to know how to respond to it.
Some weaknesses I have encountered during this entire time include
1) just a simple MM/scv pull before your warpgate research finishes, transition into bunker rush/bunker contain. They can even take the gold to be fancy haha.
2) Banshee/MM one-base. This is not hard to hold if you know the timing of their attack. But you don't know when they are coming: A fast 8 minute push? Or a delayed 12 minute? Or somewhere in between? Your response has to be different for each one and I don't know how to obtain this intel. Let me explain.. You want to pump gateway/zealot heavy if they are coming soon (8 min) but if they wait until 12 minutes to attack, they will have so much MM that all your zealots melt once they hit stim and it would have been much better if you went for colossus.
I have had much more success PvT using aggressive builds like MC does, and if I want to FE to throw off my opponent in the series I just go 16 nexus like MaNa showed us. Of course I have not completely abandoned this build. Although it is in the middle between a FE and aggressive opener, it's strength is that it looks exactly like a 4 gate, and you can take your second gas as a fake too. Just be sure to deny scv scouts.
Also if anyone can help me with the 2 problems I talked about above I would be grateful. (Masters 3000+)
1) i never lost vs this, => wait warp upgrade then go with 9 gateway unit + few probes (let your nexus tank a while)
2) agree... :/
also, i got a lot of problems vs hellion drops
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On January 23 2011 09:59 zyglrox wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 04:51 iChau wrote:On January 23 2011 04:48 travis wrote:On January 23 2011 04:07 zyglrox wrote:On January 23 2011 02:20 travis wrote:On January 23 2011 02:06 zyglrox wrote:On January 23 2011 01:22 travis wrote:
I think it can be hard to beat 2starport banshee with this build if they don't make a bunker at their ramp. Have to anticipate they might try to bring rax aggression so u have to delay ur obs a bit. then ur obs comes out and if u send it their banshee gets there and messes you up. if you keep it u can delay the banshee harrass but u don't know it's 2port and i think we all know how gateway units do vs 2port banshee when u don't have any phoenixes. especially if they throw in a raven. i think it can be hard to beat this build if you are going 2 port with no bunker at your ramp. first 3 unit push > 5-6 marines easy with no bunker. no half decent player in their right mind is going to try to push up the terran ramp when the terran hasn't expod and u have no clue what they are doing. there could be marauders with concussive at the top of that ramp thanks for the laugh u realize we are talking about off of a fast expansion, right? im sorry but if u do that with the tiny army u have that is supposed to help fend off early aggression, you are asking to lose the game every single time vs multiple raxes There's a reason this build > 3 rax, 4 rax, 5 rax stim/conc without SCV's. Also, you CAN go up the ramp. Probe/Zealot/Stalker > 2 Marines + Conc-Marauder. You scout the front and then figure out what they're doing by using good scouting skills. thanks, thought this was common sense but i guess not. anyways, if you micro poorly can always just dump your zealot and get your 2 stalkers out. were talking about the time in the game were terran has 2-4 bio units and your general purpose is mainly to see if there is a bunker or a tech lab ect. i've actually won a few games with those 3 units against really crappy fast banshee builds because he skimped on proper defense. if they went fast conc thats useful information at the cost of a zealot. you shouldn't really be able to lose anything more than 1 zealot if you micro if poorly because like i said if he comes at you your zealot will need to be kited which enables you to get your stalker out. if he's going uber fast marauders with conc he could just hit the zealot once and chase your stalkers but this requires you to faulter and it is more of a problem of your multitasking and micro than the actual idea of your poke. it's not an attack to do damage it's mainly for scouting and it's essential in this build as i have friends that are trying to learn this and they constantly forget to do this or just flat out attack and lose these units. yes, your point on early game defense is exact. if you lose these units you are in for trouble if your facing any kind of fast bio pressure because usually if they are cutting workers you will probably half only a handful of units.
knowing if they have a tech lab isn't worth the zealot imo. Sending up a zealot is great if you make one really fast (like right when 13 gate finishes) and walk it up the ramp as it will arrive before conc shell finishes then. If it's late its risky because conc shell will let you lose it and a reaper will do so as well. Just sacrificing your scouting probe is a much safer way to tell what's going on generally.
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it's possible im wrong but i still insist it's a terrible idea to risk 1, maybe even 2 of ur initial 3 units to find out what tech path he is choosing. u desperately need those units to hold a fast attack, as i said before
i poke with my probe but as my initial point was, that doesn't necessarily give u the information you need. attacking with units will but my point was that's a big risk. if you don't think that's a risk then maybe ur just the greatest player ever at holding fast pressure with 1gatefe play, but i doubt it. you probably just don't know what you're talking about.
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EPT
