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On January 28 2011 00:46 Ravaginho wrote:
Im a 3300+ Master league player and i used this build a lot.
The problem of this build is that you are blind for a very long time. Good terrans wont let you scout what they are doing. To defend against early pushes you need to cut a lot of probes but to keep up with an in-base expansion build of the T you need a good eco. The problem is that you dont know if T expands or not until your second observer arrives at his base. The first observer must stay at your base to be safe against cloaked banshees.
This build is very very hard to do properly because there is just so much that can kill you if you dont pay close attention. If you are scarred all the time of the various all-ins and cut too many probes you have a disadvantage against expansion builds.
However, on cross positions the build is still very good because you are safer against T all ins and you dont need to cut so many probes.
I actually feel pretty comfortable with the scouting information I'm able to get. Keep your scout probe in his base until you see if he's making a 2nd marine or getting a tech lab. If there's a tech lab, you can feel pretty confident that he's going bio. That will mean either (1) 3-rax early timing all-in, (2) fast expansion, or (3) quick medivac push/harass. The 3-rax should hit around the time that your nexus completes and can be held with the standard opening. As I transfer workers, I send a probe to T's natural to check for an incoming push or an expansion. If I don't see either, I can expect medivacs.
If you don't see a tech lab immediately after the first marine, you can safely poke with your first zealot and stalker for more scouting information. If there's no bunker, you can often kill some marines and get into the base for a scout. If there is a bunker full of marines, you know he hasn't yet made marauders. This will most likely indicate banshees, tanks or a FE. Send a scout probe to his natural as your nexus finishes to check for a FE and/or tank fire. If you don't see signs of an expansion, you can expect a tech build with either a big push or cloaked banshees. I do like to send my first observer rather than my second tho. With a chrono, an obs only takes 30 seconds to build, so if you start your second obs immediately after your first, the most vulnerable time for the cloaked banshee to hit is when your first observer is 15 seconds away from your base and your second observer is 15 seconds from completion. Earlier, the first obs can get back more quickly, and later, the second obs will complete more quickly. So the worst case scenario is that you're without detection for 15 seconds. A cloak rush is costly enough that you can still be ahead even if you're caught without detection for 15 seconds.
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On January 28 2011 00:08 sleepingdog wrote:
Kcdc, what's your experience with the 1 gate FE vs all-ins recently? I found that I've been all-in-ed A LOT, and I've really stopped going 1 gate FE because of that. Not simply because I've had a bad record, but because it's stupid and boring. Did I just have bad luck? Or do you too have to fight much games against all-ins recently? Don't want to abandon this strat.
I run into a lot of all-ins, but I can hold them if I play well. I actually like the shorter games because my PvP and PvZ games tend to drag out.
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On January 28 2011 01:44 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 00:46 Ravaginho wrote:
Im a 3300+ Master league player and i used this build a lot.
The problem of this build is that you are blind for a very long time. Good terrans wont let you scout what they are doing. To defend against early pushes you need to cut a lot of probes but to keep up with an in-base expansion build of the T you need a good eco. The problem is that you dont know if T expands or not until your second observer arrives at his base. The first observer must stay at your base to be safe against cloaked banshees.
This build is very very hard to do properly because there is just so much that can kill you if you dont pay close attention. If you are scarred all the time of the various all-ins and cut too many probes you have a disadvantage against expansion builds.
However, on cross positions the build is still very good because you are safer against T all ins and you dont need to cut so many probes. I actually feel pretty comfortable with the scouting information I'm able to get. Keep your scout probe in his base until you see if he's making a 2nd marine or getting a tech lab. If there's a tech lab, you can feel pretty confident that he's going bio. That will mean either (1) 3-rax early timing all-in, (2) fast expansion, or (3) quick medivac push/harass. The 3-rax should hit around the time that your nexus completes and can be held with the standard opening. As I transfer workers, I send a probe to T's natural to check for an incoming push or an expansion. If I don't see either, I can expect medivacs. If you don't see a tech lab immediately after the first marine, you can safely poke with your first zealot and stalker for more scouting information. If there's no bunker, you can often kill some marines and get into the base for a scout. If there is a bunker full of marines, you know he hasn't yet made marauders. This will most likely indicate banshees, tanks or a FE. Send a scout probe to his natural as your nexus finishes to check for a FE and/or tank fire. If you don't see signs of an expansion, you can expect a tech build with either a big push or cloaked banshees. I do like to send my first observer rather than my second tho. With a chrono, an obs only takes 30 seconds to build, so if you start your second obs immediately after your first, the most vulnerable time for the cloaked banshee to hit is when your first observer is 15 seconds away from your base and your second observer is 15 seconds from completion. Earlier, the first obs can get back more quickly, and later, the second obs will complete more quickly. So the worst case scenario is that you're without detection for 15 seconds. A cloak rush is costly enough that you can still be ahead even if you're caught without detection for 15 seconds.
I doubt that a good Terran will show you his tech lab. Poking does only show you if he has a techlab or not if his rax is on his choke or if he shows you marauders, in which case his concussive will be ready if hes good and you lose your units.
U cannot find out if he expanded or not by sending a probe to his natural because his expansion is still in his base and producing scvs/mules. This only works if he was going for a 2rax/1rax expo.
Being without detection for 15 seconds is actually a huge deal imho. U need everything u can get to defend against subsequent timing push and if u lose too much mining time/probes/sentry you are crippled.
As i said, the problem is that u need to react differently against two common builds and u cannot differentiate which one he uses until you already made some errors. Against a raven/tank/whatever push u need to cut probes. Against an inbase expansion u need to build probes. The only thing u see in time is a bunker on his choke which he will have with both builds.
If you are a good player and experienced with this build u can handle this difficulties. Then it is a solid oppening on some maps/positions which gives u a slight advantage against 2rax expo, a very good chance to win by defending against a timing push and a slight disadvantage against an inbase-expansion IF u prepare - correctly - for a timing push.
On close positions, steppes and delta I wouldnt do that build though since the distance is simply too small.
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On January 28 2011 02:22 Ravaginho wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 01:44 kcdc wrote:On January 28 2011 00:46 Ravaginho wrote:
Im a 3300+ Master league player and i used this build a lot.
The problem of this build is that you are blind for a very long time. Good terrans wont let you scout what they are doing. To defend against early pushes you need to cut a lot of probes but to keep up with an in-base expansion build of the T you need a good eco. The problem is that you dont know if T expands or not until your second observer arrives at his base. The first observer must stay at your base to be safe against cloaked banshees.
This build is very very hard to do properly because there is just so much that can kill you if you dont pay close attention. If you are scarred all the time of the various all-ins and cut too many probes you have a disadvantage against expansion builds.
However, on cross positions the build is still very good because you are safer against T all ins and you dont need to cut so many probes. I actually feel pretty comfortable with the scouting information I'm able to get. Keep your scout probe in his base until you see if he's making a 2nd marine or getting a tech lab. If there's a tech lab, you can feel pretty confident that he's going bio. That will mean either (1) 3-rax early timing all-in, (2) fast expansion, or (3) quick medivac push/harass. The 3-rax should hit around the time that your nexus completes and can be held with the standard opening. As I transfer workers, I send a probe to T's natural to check for an incoming push or an expansion. If I don't see either, I can expect medivacs. If you don't see a tech lab immediately after the first marine, you can safely poke with your first zealot and stalker for more scouting information. If there's no bunker, you can often kill some marines and get into the base for a scout. If there is a bunker full of marines, you know he hasn't yet made marauders. This will most likely indicate banshees, tanks or a FE. Send a scout probe to his natural as your nexus finishes to check for a FE and/or tank fire. If you don't see signs of an expansion, you can expect a tech build with either a big push or cloaked banshees. I do like to send my first observer rather than my second tho. With a chrono, an obs only takes 30 seconds to build, so if you start your second obs immediately after your first, the most vulnerable time for the cloaked banshee to hit is when your first observer is 15 seconds away from your base and your second observer is 15 seconds from completion. Earlier, the first obs can get back more quickly, and later, the second obs will complete more quickly. So the worst case scenario is that you're without detection for 15 seconds. A cloak rush is costly enough that you can still be ahead even if you're caught without detection for 15 seconds. I doubt that a good Terran will show you his tech lab. Poking does only show you if he has a techlab or not if his rax is on his choke or if he shows you marauders, in which case his concussive will be ready if hes good and you lose your units. U cannot find out if he expanded or not by sending a probe to his natural because his expansion is still in his base and producing scvs/mules. This only works if he was going for a 2rax/1rax expo. Being without detection for 15 seconds is actually a huge deal imho. U need everything u can get to defend against subsequent timing push and if u lose too much mining time/probes/sentry you are crippled. As i said, the problem is that u need to react differently against two common builds and u cannot differentiate which one he uses until you already made some errors. Against a raven/tank/whatever push u need to cut probes. Against an inbase expansion u need to build probes. The only thing u see in time is a bunker on his choke which he will have with both builds. If you are a good player and experienced with this build u can handle this difficulties. Then it is a solid oppening on some maps/positions which gives u a slight advantage against 2rax expo, a very good chance to win by defending against a timing push and a slight disadvantage against an inbase-expansion IF u prepare - correctly - for a timing push. On close positions, steppes and delta I wouldnt do that build though since the distance is simply too small.
Please, use the word "you" instead of "u". That was awful to read.
First, the zealot+stalker poke hits before concussive is done unless T starts the tech lab after his first marine. Your scout probe will be able to see whether T starts a second marine. You won't lose your units unless you screw up or Terran fakes a second marine, chases your probe off, cancels the marine, and goes straight to conc shell. I've never seen a Terran do that, so I wouldn't stress it too much.
Second, yes, the scout probe when your nexus finishes is sent to scout 1-rax or 2-rax FE. By this timing, a 3-rax would have already attacked, so if the scout probe doesn't see an expansion, you can rule out T1 bio leaving mech, banshees, and MMM as possibilities. Terrans don't leave their CC up the ramp producing SCVs unless they're under pressure and can't secure their natural. If your scout probe doesn't see a CC, you can assume T hasn't finished one yet. If you don't see a CC at this timing, you can get 2 more gateways (total of 5) and be safe against essentially everything. If he's doing something like banshee or drop harass into expansion, your probe cuts will be offset by your earlier expansion, and you'll be at worst on even ground.
As for the 15 seconds without detection making you lose too much economy to hold an all-in, you're correct that banshee harass often leads into a marine+banshee+whatever all-in. But the banshee harass into all-in builds do not typically involve cloak, and when they do, they're considerably lighter and easier to defend. That early 200/200 on cloak research makes a big dent in the size of their eventual push. You can afford to lose a few extra probes while your observer hurries back if T has spent 200/200 for the opportunity.
Lastly, what is the in-base expansion that you're so worried about being behind against because you've prepared for a timing push? Tank expand? Banshee expand? It's not like Terrans want to keep their expansion in their base to deny your scouting. Double MULE-ing mines out their main insanely quickly and keeps their income on par, at best, with your less-than-fully-saturated 2 base economy.
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I recently found out not to tech to colossus too fast because MMM timing pushes can destroy me.
So far, this is the small list of "counters" against Terran style that I use commonly (not including all-ins):
3 Rax: 4 Warpgates + Forge (to research +1 armor quickly)
Tanks: 4 Warpgates + Forge (to research +1 armor against marines) + Robotics some supply later
Banshees: 4 Warpgates + Forge (to research +1 armor against marines) + Robotics + Stargate supply later
I need one for FE into 6 Rax, and I think I lost because I tech too fast.
If I see that he is FE-ing, and with a scouting probe I see that he has a nice chunk of MM units, do I go 5 Gates + Forge + and a lot of supply later a Robotics?
I noticed that I wasn't able to create as many units with only 4 Warpgates while upgrading AND teching. Which should I take out? I feel that upgrades > teching for a while.
Here is a replay (I'm not used to an FE terran as most of the time they go PF expand [lol] or try to all-in and try to expand [-_-]):
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/131310-1v1-terran-protoss-shakuras-plateau
He qq's, and I then state that I will lose against the MM.
He surprisingly doesn't tech and goes 6 rax to crush me.
What are some signs of the 6 rax? My scouting probe usually dies way too fast by the many units. I think it's a macro problem (not enough production facilities or just production itself).
Thanks. I have 1/(?)1 when he attacks by the way.
His build was some kind of FE, way faster than the 1 Gate FE, and then into the 6 rax mass units.
NOTE: Excuse my raging. I felt really mad at him for saying that Protoss dominated the early-game, including all of it. We raged about imbalances for a short while, and it kinda messed my game up. Just ignore it, I was foolish for even responding. I apologized to him after. Thank you. THANK YOU.
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On January 28 2011 08:02 iChau wrote:I recently found out not to tech to colossus too fast because MMM timing pushes can destroy me. So far, this is the small list of "counters" against Terran style that I use commonly (not including all-ins): 3 Rax: 4 Warpgates + Forge (to research +1 armor quickly) Tanks: 4 Warpgates + Forge (to research +1 armor against marines) + Robotics some supply later Banshees: 4 Warpgates + Forge (to research +1 armor against marines) + Robotics + Stargate supply later I need one for FE into 6 Rax, and I think I lost because I tech too fast. If I see that he is FE-ing, and with a scouting probe I see that he has a nice chunk of MM units, do I go 5 Gates + Forge + and a lot of supply later a Robotics? I noticed that I wasn't able to create as many units with only 4 Warpgates while upgrading AND teching. Which should I take out? I feel that upgrades > teching for a while. Here is a replay (I'm not used to an FE terran as most of the time they go PF expand [lol] or try to all-in and try to expand [-_-]): http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/131310-1v1-terran-protoss-shakuras-plateauHe qq's, and I then state that I will lose against the MM. He surprisingly doesn't tech and goes 6 rax to crush me. What are some signs of the 6 rax? My scouting probe usually dies way too fast by the many units. I think it's a macro problem (not enough production facilities or just production itself). Thanks. I have 1/(?)1 when he attacks by the way. NOTE: Excuse my raging. I felt really mad at him for saying that Protoss dominated the early-game, including all of it. We raged about imbalances for a short while, and it kinda messed my game up. Just ignore it, I was foolish for even responding. I apologized to him after. Thank you. THANK YOU.
Incontrol said in his recent jp coaching that you want colossi vs those MMM timings, they really are that good, non-AOE units just dont deal enough dmg vs pure MM balls.
Have to give it to you kcdc, nice work keeping this thread alive, relevant and full of useful information for 6 months straight.
I'm wondering about incorporating a forge into this build. I think a smartly positioned cannon can do wonders for holding 1 base pushes since it has such high DPS and will add a lot of meat to your early unit wall. Having cannons also helps a great deal against the OMFG I HAVE NO ANTI AIR that tends to happen after the marine banshee timing fades out and only banshees are left.
Also if youre pretty sure that he wont go 1 1 1, i imagine that you can delay your robo in favor of more units (and you only have to worry about detection in your main if you have the cannon touching your nexus in your natural) im not very sure about the delaying robo part though.
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On January 28 2011 08:25 ChickenLips wrote:
Yeah, this is my absolute PvT build, besides close positions. I win against almost every Terran my skill level, unless they do some incredibly strong all-in or if I mis-micro/macro.
So basically, if I see him 1-2rax expand, he won't have 1/1/1 (banshees) yet, so therefore I can get 5G + Forge instead?
I think there are other ways besides this, but I want to see the full outlook against this build.
So far I'm thinking that a 5G + Forge (1/1 upgrades by the time he attacks me) can stop it. Maybe. I just remembered that stim will melt all the zealots way too fast. T_T
So, what is the most preferable way of getting colossi after expanding? It seems that if I tech fast, I die against quick MM pushes, and if I tech late, I die against huge MMM pushes.
Also, it seems that if I try to tech and upgrade, my army will be too small.
Should I not upgrade until 1-2 colossus?
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For FE into 6 rax, the best bet is don't let him FE that quickly. Try to use your first zealot and stalker to get control of the bottom of the ramp, and then hold it with a sentry. If that doesn't work and you know he's following his FE with mass MM, collosi are your best bet. The only other options I can think of are (1) a TON of chargelots, (2) great forcefields with stalkers to whittle his army down to size, and (3) dark templar. He'll hit before you can have storm if he's any good. Chargelots alone aren't going to be efficient against a 2-base bio ball because the ball will be too big with high DPS and low surface area, so if you're committed to your zealots with quick upgrades, you're going to need a lot of them. DTs to buy time to get storm might be worth a try tho. You don't want to do it every game because you'll just lose if he makes a raven, but it's pretty uncommon for a Terran to go FE into a quick raven.
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On January 28 2011 08:32 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 08:25 ChickenLips wrote:On January 28 2011 08:02 iChau wrote:
snipped Yeah, this is my absolute PvT build, besides close positions. I win against almost every Terran my skill level, unless they do some incredibly strong all-in or if I mis-micro/macro. So basically, if I see him 1-2rax expand, he won't have 1/1/1 (banshees) yet, so therefore I can get 5G + Forge instead? I think there are other ways besides this, but I want to see the full outlook against this build. So far I'm thinking that a 5G + Forge (1/1 upgrades by the time he attacks me) can stop it. Maybe. I just remembered that stim will melt all the zealots way too fast. T_T So, what is the most preferable way of getting colossi after expanding? It seems that if I tech fast, I die against quick MM pushes, and if I tech late, I die against huge MMM pushes. Also, it seems that if I try to tech and upgrade, my army will be too small. Should I not upgrade until 1-2 colossus?
I think you should forego upgrades for colossi + sentries for FF. Those 2 really shred MMM a new one, especially if you defend with it and manage your army correctly.
If you can you want to get ~6 sentries just to collect energy, this is generally not feasible against 1 base play but if you see him FE im fairly sure you can be greedy like that (while teching to colossi)
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On January 28 2011 08:47 kcdc wrote:
For FE into 6 rax, the best bet is don't let him FE that quickly. Try to use your first zealot and stalker to get control of the bottom of the ramp, and then hold it with a sentry. This is extremely important and not enough people do this, if you see him FE you can delay his expansion until starport tech for literally no cost at all (just 1 sentry and he cant do anything)
Not enough Protoss do this.If that doesn't work and you know he's following his FE with mass MM, collosi are your best bet. The only other options I can think of are (1) a TON of chargelots, (2) great forcefields with stalkers to whittle his army down to size, and (3) dark templar. He'll hit before you can have storm if he's any good. Chargelots alone aren't going to be efficient against a 2-base bio ball because the ball will be too big with high DPS and low surface area, so if you're committed to your zealots with quick upgrades, you're going to need a lot of them. DTs to buy time to get storm might be worth a try tho. You don't want to do it every game because you'll just lose if he makes a raven, but it's pretty uncommon for a Terran to go FE into a quick raven.
Chargelots are good but they become pretty bad in larger numbers if you dont have AOE to force him to spread his units. Great FF beat anything :D, I dont think Ive ever seen DTs work in that scenario, almost always the Terran has enough scans to kill alot of shit giving him the huge advantage and then he has a raven anyways. Most of the time Ive seen Ps go for early DTs in a 2base vs 2base scenario they just die pretty horribly.
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On January 28 2011 08:47 kcdc wrote:
For FE into 6 rax, the best bet is don't let him FE that quickly. Try to use your first zealot and stalker to get control of the bottom of the ramp, and then hold it with a sentry. If that doesn't work and you know he's following his FE with mass MM, collosi are your best bet. The only other options I can think of are (1) a TON of chargelots, (2) great forcefields with stalkers to whittle his army down to size, and (3) dark templar. He'll hit before you can have storm if he's any good. Chargelots alone aren't going to be efficient against a 2-base bio ball because the ball will be too big with high DPS and low surface area, so if you're committed to your zealots with quick upgrades, you're going to need a lot of them. DTs to buy time to get storm might be worth a try tho. You don't want to do it every game because you'll just lose if he makes a raven, but it's pretty uncommon for a Terran to go FE into a quick raven.
Yeah, I think I delayed him for quite a bit, which allowed my expansion to finish just when his was landing.
Thanks! When do you get your 3rd/4th gas against a situation like this? (for sentries + colossi)
On January 28 2011 08:48 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 08:32 iChau wrote:On January 28 2011 08:25 ChickenLips wrote:On January 28 2011 08:02 iChau wrote:
snipped Yeah, this is my absolute PvT build, besides close positions. I win against almost every Terran my skill level, unless they do some incredibly strong all-in or if I mis-micro/macro. So basically, if I see him 1-2rax expand, he won't have 1/1/1 (banshees) yet, so therefore I can get 5G + Forge instead? I think there are other ways besides this, but I want to see the full outlook against this build. So far I'm thinking that a 5G + Forge (1/1 upgrades by the time he attacks me) can stop it. Maybe. I just remembered that stim will melt all the zealots way too fast. T_T So, what is the most preferable way of getting colossi after expanding? It seems that if I tech fast, I die against quick MM pushes, and if I tech late, I die against huge MMM pushes. Also, it seems that if I try to tech and upgrade, my army will be too small. Should I not upgrade until 1-2 colossus? I think you should forego upgrades for colossi + sentries for FF. Those 2 really shred MMM a new one, especially if you defend with it and manage your army correctly. If you can you want to get ~6 sentries just to collect energy, this is generally not feasible against 1 base play but if you see him FE im fairly sure you can be greedy like that (while teching to colossi)
Hmm. Nice. I think I will get around 2 colossi before upgrading, and then start getting +1 attack and expand since I have map control due to low viking count. This is so I have a smooth transition into charge-lot/templar.
Thanks!
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On January 28 2011 08:25 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 08:02 iChau wrote:I recently found out not to tech to colossus too fast because MMM timing pushes can destroy me. So far, this is the small list of "counters" against Terran style that I use commonly (not including all-ins): 3 Rax: 4 Warpgates + Forge (to research +1 armor quickly) Tanks: 4 Warpgates + Forge (to research +1 armor against marines) + Robotics some supply later Banshees: 4 Warpgates + Forge (to research +1 armor against marines) + Robotics + Stargate supply later I need one for FE into 6 Rax, and I think I lost because I tech too fast. If I see that he is FE-ing, and with a scouting probe I see that he has a nice chunk of MM units, do I go 5 Gates + Forge + and a lot of supply later a Robotics? I noticed that I wasn't able to create as many units with only 4 Warpgates while upgrading AND teching. Which should I take out? I feel that upgrades > teching for a while. Here is a replay (I'm not used to an FE terran as most of the time they go PF expand [lol] or try to all-in and try to expand [-_-]): http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/131310-1v1-terran-protoss-shakuras-plateauHe qq's, and I then state that I will lose against the MM. He surprisingly doesn't tech and goes 6 rax to crush me. What are some signs of the 6 rax? My scouting probe usually dies way too fast by the many units. I think it's a macro problem (not enough production facilities or just production itself). Thanks. I have 1/(?)1 when he attacks by the way. NOTE: Excuse my raging. I felt really mad at him for saying that Protoss dominated the early-game, including all of it. We raged about imbalances for a short while, and it kinda messed my game up. Just ignore it, I was foolish for even responding. I apologized to him after. Thank you. THANK YOU. Incontrol said in his recent jp coaching that you want colossi vs those MMM timings, they really are that good, non-AOE units just dont deal enough dmg vs pure MM balls. Have to give it to you kcdc, nice work keeping this thread alive, relevant and full of useful information for 6 months straight. I'm wondering about incorporating a forge into this build. I think a smartly positioned cannon can do wonders for holding 1 base pushes since it has such high DPS and will add a lot of meat to your early unit wall. Having cannons also helps a great deal against the OMFG I HAVE NO ANTI AIR that tends to happen after the marine banshee timing fades out and only banshees are left. Also if youre pretty sure that he wont go 1 1 1, i imagine that you can delay your robo in favor of more units (and you only have to worry about detection in your main if you have the cannon touching your nexus in your natural) im not very sure about the delaying robo part though.
Where's the PvT coaching VOD? I searched but can't find it. Still looking...
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On January 28 2011 08:52 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 08:47 kcdc wrote:
For FE into 6 rax, the best bet is don't let him FE that quickly. Try to use your first zealot and stalker to get control of the bottom of the ramp, and then hold it with a sentry. This is extremely important and not enough people do this, if you see him FE you can delay his expansion until starport tech for literally no cost at all (just 1 sentry and he cant do anything) Not enough Protoss do this. Show nested quote +If that doesn't work and you know he's following his FE with mass MM, collosi are your best bet. The only other options I can think of are (1) a TON of chargelots, (2) great forcefields with stalkers to whittle his army down to size, and (3) dark templar. He'll hit before you can have storm if he's any good. Chargelots alone aren't going to be efficient against a 2-base bio ball because the ball will be too big with high DPS and low surface area, so if you're committed to your zealots with quick upgrades, you're going to need a lot of them. DTs to buy time to get storm might be worth a try tho. You don't want to do it every game because you'll just lose if he makes a raven, but it's pretty uncommon for a Terran to go FE into a quick raven. Chargelots are good but they become pretty bad in larger numbers if you dont have AOE to force him to spread his units. Great FF beat anything :D, I dont think Ive ever seen DTs work in that scenario, almost always the Terran has enough scans to kill alot of shit giving him the huge advantage and then he has a raven anyways. Most of the time Ive seen Ps go for early DTs in a 2base vs 2base scenario they just die pretty horribly.
I've used DTs like that and it's worked fine. DT harass will obviously keep him busy for a while, but if he has turrets up, you can just put a DT outside his base to hit him when he moves out and he'll stay home till he has mobile detection. It'll take like 4 scans to get across the map otherwise.
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On January 28 2011 09:00 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 08:52 ChickenLips wrote:On January 28 2011 08:47 kcdc wrote:
For FE into 6 rax, the best bet is don't let him FE that quickly. Try to use your first zealot and stalker to get control of the bottom of the ramp, and then hold it with a sentry. This is extremely important and not enough people do this, if you see him FE you can delay his expansion until starport tech for literally no cost at all (just 1 sentry and he cant do anything) Not enough Protoss do this. If that doesn't work and you know he's following his FE with mass MM, collosi are your best bet. The only other options I can think of are (1) a TON of chargelots, (2) great forcefields with stalkers to whittle his army down to size, and (3) dark templar. He'll hit before you can have storm if he's any good. Chargelots alone aren't going to be efficient against a 2-base bio ball because the ball will be too big with high DPS and low surface area, so if you're committed to your zealots with quick upgrades, you're going to need a lot of them. DTs to buy time to get storm might be worth a try tho. You don't want to do it every game because you'll just lose if he makes a raven, but it's pretty uncommon for a Terran to go FE into a quick raven. Chargelots are good but they become pretty bad in larger numbers if you dont have AOE to force him to spread his units. Great FF beat anything :D, I dont think Ive ever seen DTs work in that scenario, almost always the Terran has enough scans to kill alot of shit giving him the huge advantage and then he has a raven anyways. Most of the time Ive seen Ps go for early DTs in a 2base vs 2base scenario they just die pretty horribly. I've used DTs like that and it's worked fine. DT harass will obviously keep him busy for a while, but if he has turrets up, you can just put a DT outside his base to hit him when he moves out and he'll stay home till he has mobile detection. It'll take like 4 scans to get across the map otherwise.
AHHH, sorry guys. I don't mean STRAIGHT FE into 6 Rax, if that's what you're thinking. It was a 1/2 rax fe into 6 rax, so he had marauders+marines to deter me away from my base. 
Really sorry for not being specific.
I can't watch the replay, but I remember the match because it was fresh. I'm currently studying for finals while looking for replies to my post.
edit: Although now I know how to react against FE into etc terrans.
I just remembered something from day9's dailies: Macro up a huge force and select your tech path, and when your money starts getting out of control, it's a good time to upgrade since you can't cut any unit production with your high economy. <-- Is this good? It's day9 pshh, so probably, but if there's any examples then feel free to share.
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Been having a lot of success with that build...
I add Dt to that build to punish FE and not FEer.
If they go banshee they counter me but i can still morph into archon which are good vs marine and banshee. I usually try to do a little push with 3 dt and 3/4 of the time they dont see them and most of his army is dead by the time he realise it (Dt are really strong against MM)
Having hard time with raven push.... if its late im alright i can get zealot charge and phoenix in time... but otherwise its pretty hard... I'm gonna try 5 gate robo enxt time.
I tried going mass blink stalker too... it work grreat and keep him in his base for a while since you can always blink in and kill scv... and I do kill them a lot... Problem is that if he decide to move and base trade... Stalker do shit damage to base and slow... + you cant fall back since blink stalker suck vs marine, marauder tank and banshee 
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I've actually been experimenting with a Stalker//Sentry mix to hold early pushes and all-ins (this is before my observer gets to his base and scouts exactly whats going on). This composition works well because since both units are ranged, the FF go down, you split his army, then you back up and attack the fractured part. You give up DPS for smarter play (since bad FF will cause you to lose, what else is new), because zealots will still be attacked by both parts of his army if you split it with FF.
So far i've been doing pretty well with it. Just a way to buy time to get Collosus//temps.
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Okay so I have made a few variations to the build to suit my liking. If you can learn to get away with using all chronoboosts on your nexus, it makes this build so much stronger. The timings are much easier, and it puts you at a HUGE advantage, compared to using them all on the warpgate.
Just thought I would throw that out there.
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On February 02 2011 08:35 Minigun wrote:
Okay so I have made a few variations to the build to suit my liking. If you can learn to get away with using all chronoboosts on your nexus, it makes this build so much stronger. The timings are much easier, and it puts you at a HUGE advantage, compared to using them all on the warpgate.
Just thought I would throw that out there.
Do you mean on the Gateway (I assume you don't mean Warpgate Research)? Also, if you don't Chronoboost your first Gateway, how do you hold early Concussive Shell pushes? Wouldn't you be too light on units? Would you mind posting a replay or two of you using this build with your adjustments?
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On February 02 2011 08:35 Minigun wrote:
Okay so I have made a few variations to the build to suit my liking. If you can learn to get away with using all chronoboosts on your nexus, it makes this build so much stronger. The timings are much easier, and it puts you at a HUGE advantage, compared to using them all on the warpgate.
Just thought I would throw that out there.
What do you do vs early agressions like fast concussive ? (and feel that 2 rax is quite hard to hold w/o 4warpgates + 3stalker+zeal.
On the other hand, if you can hold until warp/tech you are ahead with like 10+ workers.
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I recently started to play zeal before cyber core to go right to his base and scout. It usually comes about time the first marauder is out with no slow even close so it is very hard to lose it. The delay for core is a few seconds. If there are marines only I add robo before gates. If marauder is spotted I get 2 gates, robo, gate.
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EPT
