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On August 13 2010 13:33 churn wrote:The better of the games we played. You guys should decide yourselves if this is solid play. 3 rax heavy marauder with stim and conc shell as fast as possible. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-138522.jpg)
Haha....the answer is: no. Not particularly good play from either side. Watching the replay tho, I realize that the fourth gateway is pretty useless against fast-hitting attacks. It won't be done in time to be relevant. Cutting probes to get the second and third gates done faster and keeping my units at the top of the ramp to let my nexus tank a few shots until my units warped in would have made the fight look much less close.
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oh my goodness thank you. I've been wanting an aggressive opening against terran that actually puts me at an advantage. 3gate openings put all the control of the match in the terran's hands imo, you're forced to tech until he expands and then you can finally throw yours down, but this forces him to either try to bust you, which I think is pretty well proven can be handled at this point, or expand himself which puts him a bit behind in economy.
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I think this works because this is difficult for terran to scout. But if he does, he can pump marines and bring scvs to your expo.
If you scout 1/1/1, how do you stop marine tank raven scv push to your base? charge won't be finished yet.
@floop:
I've been coming to that realization too. You can't really stim more than once, and he can force u to stim and forcefield you out. That combined with colossus and Bio play is really inferior to mech play.
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I found out that if it's not a 3rax before tech build, I usually can get away with a sentry after zealot/stalker. IDK if it's viable vs rine/tank opening, though, but getting that sentry allows for a faster nexus - and for a faster 2 gateways. Cutting one probe for them, warpgates and extra gateways finish almost at the same time - probably some more tweaking will get the effect. Nexus supply kicks in faster as well, so no need for an extra pylon compared to if I got a 2nd zealot or 2nd stalker later on.
Unfortunately, faster sentry probably won't work on a 2rine->tech lab for maradeur -> maradeurs and 2 more rax opening. I am not sure, it needs some testing. If the sentry can get to terran before the extra barracks finish, and if the army that's one stalker or one zealot smaller can handle the 1rax production + travel time to terran production, you might be able to FF him in.
If that turns out to be true, I'll probably start opening with TWO sentries in a row in order to get a good timed warp/3gate without probe cuts.
Though I do suspect that there's no way 2(1)zealot 1(2)stalker 1sentry will handle something like 2rine/2(3? 1?)maradeur opening enough to contain the terran.
Btw, FE without sentry is really easy on maps with large distances, such as desert oasis or scrap station. It's the small maps I'm concerned about.
I start 2nd gas after starting 3rd gateway and resuming probe production, I tend to start robo after a 1 or 2 warp cycles. Didn't experiment much on later parts - precise follow-ups for FE will have to wait until it's certainly viable against rushes.
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On August 13 2010 14:31 altairian wrote:
oh my goodness thank you. I've been wanting an aggressive opening against terran that actually puts me at an advantage. 3gate openings put all the control of the match in the terran's hands imo, you're forced to tech until he expands and then you can finally throw yours down, but this forces him to either try to bust you, which I think is pretty well proven can be handled at this point, or expand himself which puts him a bit behind in economy.
Not on topic of FE, but you should look into the 2 stalker opening
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I've been opening with stalkers and using them to harass where I can, but naked stalkers against marauders gets really sketchy really fast. I'm definitely interested in playing around with it more though if you could elaborate a bit? perhaps in a PM so we don't get too off topic here 
No single strategy will work against everything obviously, so while this may become my standard PvT opening I definitely want to have other options ;D
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I forgot to save the replays w/ Floop as we went, and the 10 replay limit has killed the first ones where we were testing the build against early timing attacks. Floop, do you have them? I'm thinking I'll expand the OP into a real guide sometime next week, and those replays would be helpful.
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I have done your strat twice on the ladder and lost twice (diamond 650). It is maybe possible to pull off if: the terran doesn't scout it, you pull probes off the line to help in the fight, and fight close to your nexus so that the nexus tanks a little.
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On August 14 2010 00:29 Anomandaris wrote:
I have done your strat twice on the ladder and lost twice (diamond 650). It is maybe possible to pull off if: the terran doesn't scout it, you pull probes off the line to help in the fight, and fight close to your nexus so that the nexus tanks a little.
These are all things that kcdc does do in his replays. You should watch them for tips =)
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On August 13 2010 14:48 willeesmalls wrote:
I think this works because this is difficult for terran to scout. But if he does, he can pump marines and bring scvs to your expo.
If you scout 1/1/1, how do you stop marine tank raven scv push to your base? charge won't be finished yet.
@floop:
I've been coming to that realization too. You can't really stim more than once, and he can force u to stim and forcefield you out. That combined with colossus and Bio play is really inferior to mech play.
Dude, this is the direct counter to 1/1/1 builds. I've already established that a looonnnnnnggggg time ago. You can just have enough stalkers to hold off early marine/tank pushes. The big raven push comes so late that you have 4 gates and a robo up with immortals, observers, tons of stalkers, maybe even blink. Remember, all you have to do is kill the tanks and the attack does nothing because stalkers can dance around marines all day.
@kcdc:
I still have them, let me save them now before I forget.
edit:
I saved them but I think I might be missing 1 or 2, and I'm sure I saved some dummy reps. I don't think I have the rep of you beating my push but that game was so far from close it doesn't even matter.
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On August 14 2010 00:29 Anomandaris wrote:
I have done your strat twice on the ladder and lost twice (diamond 650). It is maybe possible to pull off if: the terran doesn't scout it, you pull probes off the line to help in the fight, and fight close to your nexus so that the nexus tanks a little.
Keep working at it. I've probably used this FE 30+ times on the ladder and I think I've lost the nexus maybe twice due to bad control. And it gets scouted the majority of the time.
But yes, if T attacks before you have 3+ warpgates, you definitely need to pull probes, but even if you lose 6 or 7 probes, as long as you keep your nexus, you're ahead in economy.
When I expand the OP, I'll talk more about how to hold early aggression.
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Very nice build. i now used it too in ladder (diamond) and never lost the fe. It is really a solid opening. Thank you op 
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Kind of skeptical about this build. Will definitely look at the replays when I get home and try it out myself.
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This is just an invitation for T to do a 3 rax marauder. GG.
I really see no way you could ever hold off a 3rax marauder or mass rax pure marine all-in build with this.
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On August 14 2010 03:37 Reason.SC2 wrote:
This is just an invitation for T to do a 3 rax marauder. GG.
I really see no way you could ever hold off a 3rax marauder or mass rax pure marine all-in build with this.
read the thread please.
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I understand its supposed to be able to hold this off (3 rax marauder). I just don't believe that this is true unless the terran simply doesn't execute properly. Consider that you're spending an extra 400 minerals on that nexus which your opponent is spending on army, that you can't hold him off for too long with forcefields since there is no ramp which 1 FF can cover to your nat, and that concussion upgraded marauders melt all gateway units (not to mention he'll have a bigger army and stim on the way). And add to the scenario that the economic advantage you gain from FE won't kick in before he attacks you and you've got yourself one tough situation.
Either way I'll be doing some testing to confirm this for myself. If it works then I'd be one happy camper ^^.
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On August 14 2010 03:37 Reason.SC2 wrote:
This is just an invitation for T to do a 3 rax marauder. GG.
I really see no way you could ever hold off a 3rax marauder or mass rax pure marine all-in build with this.
It works because you get 3gates + warp gate up right around the time his push hits. This allows you to reinforce quickly enough to hold it off. The important thing is keeping your stalkers alive, zealot + stalker beats marauder unless your micro is awful.
I think a lot of protoss run in to problems with early pushes because they simply aren't utilizing their gateways before warp gate is up. We end up cutting units to create more gateways for our 3 or 4 gate pushes, but there's that sketchy period in the middle where warp gate isn't researched yet that we're rocking at best 1 zealot 1 stalker 1 sentry and then we get walked over by marauders and cry the matchup is broken. The key element to this strategy is you're fully utilizing, AND chrono boosting your single gateway, so you end up with just as many units, or in some cases even more units, than a standard warp gate opening.
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Unfortunately none of the examples of 3rax marauder plays shown in the replays were...um, executed properly? I watched the 3 replays posted and in all games it looks like a better terran player should have definitely been able to finish the game. I could be wrong, and it is probably COMPLETELY OK that this strategy has a weakness to 3rax marauder. Hopefully we are seeing the same kind of development as we saw in BW where FEs become more popular the better the playerbase gets at being able to defend them. I think it will be good for the game if FEs and 2-3 base plays become much more common.
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On August 14 2010 04:17 Reason.SC2 wrote:
I understand its supposed to be able to hold this off (3 rax marauder). I just don't believe that this is true unless the terran simply doesn't execute properly. Consider that you're spending an extra 400 minerals on that nexus which your opponent is spending on army, that you can't hold him off for too long with forcefields since there is no ramp which 1 FF can cover to your nat, and that concussion upgraded marauders melt all gateway units (not to mention he'll have a bigger army and stim on the way). And add to the scenario that the economic advantage you gain from FE won't kick in before he attacks you and you've got yourself one tough situation.
Either way I'll be doing some testing to confirm this for myself. If it works then I'd be one happy camper ^^.
Marauders don't melt any of the gateway units. They beat naked stalkers, but lose for cost to stalkers with zealot meatshields. Also, the Protoss defender gets a rush distance time advantage, an instant production cycle unit count advantage from warpgates, a terrain advantage, a nexus to tank shots, probes to help fight, and can reinforce instantly at the location of the battle. It can get close, but if you control well, you'll hold.
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EPT
