EPT[G] kcdc's PvT FE - Page 4
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Hider
Denmark9405 Posts
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Keap
United States214 Posts
On August 13 2010 04:07 Hider wrote: This strategy simply cant work. I do a 3rax timing push with stim + emp, and to my experience I will (just when stim finishes) always have a stronger army than the protoss. The protoss only chance is getting back in their base and defending with the use of forcefield(s) and wait for collosus/chargelots. But you cant go back in your base when you have an expansion. Sry to say but you will always lose to a well executed timing push going FE as protoss. You are assuming a timing push. If protoss scouts a 1-1-1, which is standard in diamond, that build might very well work. Different builds for different situations. 3 rax works rly well in lower levels, but better players will start to own you with VR rushes, DT rushes, or defensive 3 gate-robo. I'd learn a 1-1-1 just to be safe if I were you  | ||
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churn
28 Posts
So far I think: Z can FE in ZvT Z can FE in ZvP Z can NOT FE in ZvZ P can FE in PvZ P cannot FE in PvT P cannot FE in PvP T is iffy because I've been cooking up a PF FE... but we'll see... T can FE in TvP easy but would definitely love to test this with you. I'm sending you a PM with my Name.ID | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On August 13 2010 04:07 Hider wrote: This strategy simply cant work. I do a 3rax timing push with stim + emp, and to my experience I will (just when stim finishes) always have a stronger army than the protoss. The protoss only chance is getting back in their base and defending with the use of forcefield(s) and wait for collosus/chargelots. But you cant go back in your base when you have an expansion. Sry to say but you will always lose to a well executed timing push going FE as protoss. I've run into stim + emp timing attacks many times with this build. The timing on that attack quite late (need stim research and multiple ghosts with energy for EMP), and I'll have had my 2-base economy up and running for a few minutes before you set out. You're experiencing that you have a stronger army than 1-base Protoss players, but by the time you attack, I'll have a stronger army than a 1-base Protoss player would have had. This timing attack is pretty strong, however, and does require good control to hold since it hits before I finish charge. If I can get off a few good forcefields (and I spread my sentries so there's no way you'll EMP all of them) early in the battle, it's an easy win from that point forward. This timing attack is much easier to hold with my expansion timing than it is with a 3-gate expand timing. | ||
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TehForce
1072 Posts
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
3 rax play however is unstoppable with this kinda of build. You need either chargelots + HT or colossi to deal with it, both things you can't have with any sort of supporting army if you expo like this. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On August 13 2010 04:40 Floophead_III wrote: This is only viable if you scout a factory, but if you do scout a factory you should do this build or a similar variant of 1 gate FE. 1 gate robo FE is fine if you scout later as well. 3 rax play however is unstoppable with this kinda of build. You need either chargelots + HT or colossi to deal with it, both things you can't have with any sort of supporting army if you expo like this. People keep saying this sort of thing, but I've done this build a lot and haven't experienced these problems at all. I'd suggest playing around with it more before you dismiss it out of hand. IMO, SoW is the best map for this build because the layout makes it hard to harrass and there's a hill outside the nat to keep your zealots alive against kiting. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On August 13 2010 04:44 kcdc wrote: People keep saying this sort of thing, but I've done this build a lot and haven't experienced these problems at all. I'd suggest playing around with it more before you dismiss it out of hand. IMO, SoW is the best map for this build because the layout makes it hard to harrass and there's a hill outside the nat to keep your zealots alive against kiting. Care to play vs me in a game so I can see it in action firsthand? PM me your info and I'll gladly play a few games. My build is designed to stop all FEs. I can't speak for other 3 rax pushes which are probably inferior, but in my experience no FE build has ever worked vs me. | ||
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Kalingingsong
Canada633 Posts
I just played a game at around the diamond 400s level with this, and it worked against a MM pressure opening. The only time where it seemed like there was any danger was when my 4th and 5th gates were going up, he almost managed to break through but pulling probes from the natural held the attack off pretty well (we both lost our armies and i lost a couple of probes), afterwards I was up by almost 20 workers so it was over for him. I think people who are concerned about this are underestimating zealot stalker micro[using zealots as meatshields and pulling the stalkers away when the zealots are almost dead. Its more effective at holding pressure than you might expect] | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On August 13 2010 05:17 Floophead_III wrote: Care to play vs me in a game so I can see it in action firsthand? PM me your info and I'll gladly play a few games. My build is designed to stop all FEs. I can't speak for other 3 rax pushes which are probably inferior, but in my experience no FE build has ever worked vs me. Sure, I'll PM you my name.id when I get home from work. Also, I don't use collosi at all in my PvT and I get HT going very late when I need a gas sink. I find that chargelots + upgrades wind up beating any mid-game bio army pretty easily. | ||
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hofodomo
United States257 Posts
On August 13 2010 04:25 churn wrote: P cannot FE in PvP My post here is a bit off-topic, but it's entirely possible--though not all that profitable--to FE in PvP. A 14 nexus works pretty with a 14/16 double gate afterwards. Adding gas/core or forge can get you settled in against a 1-base push, though you might fall to some sort of void ray rush instead. Problem is, you'll be chronoboosting zealots early, while the other guy can chrono boost his probes. | ||
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Mnijykmirl
United States299 Posts
Problem is, you'll be chronoboosting zealots early, while the other guy can chrono boost his probes. I think about this a lot. I think about the potential in macro protoss a lot. If you have fast expanded- you have double the potential worker production than you would normally. It is similar to chronoboosting your nexus 100% the time without spending the actual chronoboost energy. You also get additional chronoboost energy from having a second nexus. This is unlike Zerg or Terran who must invest additional resources to expand their macro mechanics. Since you already have double probe production, chronoboost can be spent entirely on gateways for double speed unit production instead with no probe loss against a protoss that spends chronoboost on nexus only. This can drastically reduce the vulnerability window and opportunity cost of expanding. The unit production must be cut for the expand, but once it starts, units can potentially be produced at a near constant double rate out of two gateways, which can quickly even out the unit count compared to the route of one-base protoss. The only hurdle to overcome is the initial 400 mineral investment window. This may come from wise unit manipulation and long push distances. A tight build can already use the Nexus as supply, saving 125 minerals otherwise spent on pylons. On top of the chronoboost advantage, there is the potential in having higher total gas income. Whatever is the case, I think the potential for early expand macro protoss over the more common high aggression 1 base protoss is one of the coolest things on the horizon. Seeing massive Zealot/Stalker warpgate, Observer and Immortal as if it were PvT SC:BW is very cool to see. | ||
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
On August 13 2010 06:15 kcdc wrote: Sure, I'll PM you my name.id when I get home from work. Also, I don't use collosi at all in my PvT and I get HT going very late when I need a gas sink. I find that chargelots + upgrades wind up beating any mid-game bio army pretty easily. I am very interested in these games. Pls pls (!) post the replays here as you finshed the games, because most of the T kcdc encountered (except for 1 or 2) were obviously not that good and based on Floophead's Posts here at TL I consider him to be a decent player. On August 13 2010 09:11 Mnijykmirl wrote: I think about this a lot. I think about the potential in macro protoss a lot. If you have fast expanded- you have double the potential worker production than you would normally. It is similar to chronoboosting your nexus 100% the time without spending the actual chronoboost energy. You also get additional chronoboost energy from having a second nexus. This is unlike Zerg or Terran who must invest additional resources to expand their macro mechanics. Since you already have double probe production, chronoboost can be spent entirely on gateways for double speed unit production instead with no probe loss against a protoss that spends chronoboost on nexus only. This can drastically reduce the vulnerability window and opportunity cost of expanding. The unit production must be cut for the expand, but once it starts, units can potentially be produced at a near constant double rate out of two gateways, which can quickly even out the unit count compared to the route of one-base protoss. The only hurdle to overcome is the initial 400 mineral investment window. This may come from wise unit manipulation and long push distances. A tight build can already use the Nexus as supply, saving 125 minerals otherwise spent on pylons. On top of the chronoboost advantage, there is the potential in having higher total gas income. Whatever is the case, I think the potential for early expand macro protoss over the more common high aggression 1 base protoss is one of the coolest things on the horizon. Seeing massive Zealot/Stalker warpgate, Observer and Immortal as if it were PvT SC:BW is very cool to see. Simply +1 ! Exactly my thoughts. The Potential of double Nexus is currently very undervalued. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On August 13 2010 06:15 kcdc wrote: Sure, I'll PM you my name.id when I get home from work. Also, I don't use collosi at all in my PvT and I get HT going very late when I need a gas sink. I find that chargelots + upgrades wind up beating any mid-game bio army pretty easily. Well, my push comes too late to deal with the build. We did a fair amount of testing and 1 gate FE is very strong vs ghost based play. Vs mech play, it's strong but there are 2 factory builds which are nasty to deal with, if not outright counters. Vs the standard 3 rax stim/conc mara push I think you'd lose, but that's defined by tech lab immediately on rax, which is something scoutable and punishable with voidray (which you can transition to before expo starts.) All in all, I think my earlier assessment that TvP was broken was not correct. Bio play doesn't automatically net an advantage for T. I think in fact it's allin and rather stupid after the games I just played. I suspect 1 gate FE vs siege expo will become standard in a few months. | ||
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Ftrunkz
Australia2474 Posts
edit: that being said, the build served me well up until that point at high diamond, but I just dont like the idea of my 'standard' build having a hard counter that's near impossible to scout =[ | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On August 13 2010 12:51 Ftrunkz wrote: I was doing quite a similar build to this, up until i got 2-rax cloak-ghost rushed.... afaik you just dont get a robo even close to soon enough against that, and its practically instant-loss as 2 ghosts have enough nrg to kill almost every single probe you have at that point... You'd want to notice it coming and block your ramp with stalkers and pull nat probes back to your main while you wait for robo. That opening with cloak ghost is really rather allin and super risky. I've used it a few times but I don't like it. It's too much gas and doesn't transition very well unlike dt for protoss which at least makes archons (and dts are way more scary in combat). | ||
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Ftrunkz
Australia2474 Posts
On August 13 2010 12:53 Floophead_III wrote: You'd want to notice it coming and block your ramp with stalkers and pull nat probes back to your main while you wait for robo. That opening with cloak ghost is really rather allin and super risky. I've used it a few times but I don't like it. It's too much gas and doesn't transition very well unlike dt for protoss which at least makes archons (and dts are way more scary in combat). dt's more scary than ghosts pvt? you srs? =[ Anyway, i guess that's actually a pretty valid and simple solution, since you'll be warping down the bottom of the ramp anyway and the probes can just maynard through them... In fact i feel incredibly stupid for not thinking of it ;o... | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On August 13 2010 12:42 Floophead_III wrote: Well, my push comes too late to deal with the build. We did a fair amount of testing and 1 gate FE is very strong vs ghost based play. Vs mech play, it's strong but there are 2 factory builds which are nasty to deal with, if not outright counters. Vs the standard 3 rax stim/conc mara push I think you'd lose, but that's defined by tech lab immediately on rax, which is something scoutable and punishable with voidray (which you can transition to before expo starts.) All in all, I think my earlier assessment that TvP was broken was not correct. Bio play doesn't automatically net an advantage for T. I think in fact it's allin and rather stupid after the games I just played. I suspect 1 gate FE vs siege expo will become standard in a few months. We played several games testing different Terran builds. Against bio, the FE was solid IMO. I did lose 2 games against bio, but in one of them, I forgot warpgate research and in the other I lost 2 zealots to bad rallies. It turns out I'm not very good....particularly when trying to chat. Against mech, Floop did have a pretty strong timing push with marines, tanks and hellions that killed me the first time I saw it, but we tried it again, and I somehow crushed it the second time. I did pick up a bunch of notes on the timings from the games tho. First, after you get your expo down, it's probably a good idea to cut probes a bit to get your 2nd and 3rd gateways started ASAP. You'll also want to spend a chronoboost or 2 on your warpgate research. The pushes were hitting just after warpgates finished and just before my additional gateways finished. If I had the 2nd and 3rd gateways done maybe 5-10 seconds earlier, it would have been muuuuch easier to hold. Also, one thing I didn't do in those games at all but plan to start doing is to keep my units in my main rather than outside my nat until I get my 3 warpgates up and running. Allowing the expansion nexus to tank some shots at the start of the fight would help a lot. All in all, I came away more convinced that the FE is stable, tho I'd encourage others to play around with it or to try to come up with ways to beat it. Also, I agree with Floop's sentiment that as more P players start using this build, PvT will become both sides expanding early. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On August 13 2010 12:53 Floophead_III wrote: You'd want to notice it coming and block your ramp with stalkers and pull nat probes back to your main while you wait for robo. That opening with cloak ghost is really rather allin and super risky. I've used it a few times but I don't like it. It's too much gas and doesn't transition very well unlike dt for protoss which at least makes archons (and dts are way more scary in combat). I haven't ever played against cloaked ghost rushes, but in my experience, the observer comes out in plenty of time to deal with cloaked banshee rushes. If you do get caught w/o detection, blocking the ramp with stalkers and running your probes through them from one base to the other does seem like an easy way to handle it tho. | ||
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churn
28 Posts
You guys should decide yourselves if this is solid play. 3 rax heavy marauder with stim and conc shell as fast as possible. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-138522.jpg) | ||
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