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3650 Protoss (MasterLeague):
Just wanted to show you some replays of me using 1GFE against Terran today:
I played all of them on EU-Ladder.
Replay 1: Close Air Metalopolis:
Openings: 1G FE against Helion + 8M-Dropship harass.
My thoughts: The opening helped me to get second gas early, which allowed me to get real big timing pushes (Colossi when he didn't have Vikings, High Templar when he didn't have Ghosts). There was no problem for me to defend against his early pressure.
Replay 2:Cross Slag Pits:
Openings: 1G FE against CloakBanshee
My thoughts: I scouted the factory and got the Observer out in time. Latter on things became STRANGE! Every terran should go and watch this replay, it's insane.
I have some more replays but they're not that special (one was vs Thor/Marine/Raven where I barely defended a 12 minute push). Didn't have the chance to test this build against Bio-Openings or heavy All-In builds. Worked well against 1 Racks FE.
My thoughts:
I really like to play like this because it prefectly fits my PvT style (Defend in the early game, get to a macro/harrass-oriented Late-game, own the terran)
Although I have to admit that I was very lucky at scouting today! If a terran just does a decent wall-in, things are getting though.
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theres a timing push thats been getting me a lot. The T makes 1 marine then shows you a 2nd rax immediately and a tech lab on his 1st barracks. I think 1 gate FE wont hold in close positions but even if I control perfectly ( which I don't) I will live by the very skin of my teeth. The terran usually brings 2-5 scvs for fighting/ bunker contain ( at which point im fucked if he bunker contains me)
Is there anything you would do if you scout this such as 3 gate FE or another opening?
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On March 09 2011 05:40 Garth wrote:
theres a timing push thats been getting me a lot. The T makes 1 marine then shows you a 2nd rax immediately and a tech lab on his 1st barracks. I think 1 gate FE wont hold in close positions but even if I control perfectly ( which I don't) I will live by the very skin of my teeth. The terran usually brings 2-5 scvs for fighting/ bunker contain ( at which point im fucked if he bunker contains me)
Is there anything you would do if you scout this such as 3 gate FE or another opening?
You certainly can 3 gate FE, but I'm pretty bold with my expansion and usually go for it unless I scout something cheesy. If his barracks are in his base, I feel like I can defend (unless he brings a LOT of SCVs which forces me to cancel or sac the expo, but that's a pretty even trade given a 20 SCV attack).
Just be confident in your timings and your micro. If he goes for a quick tech lab and 2nd rax, you'll see it, and you can cut probes at 30 to get gates #2 and 3 really fast. Know T's production timings compared to yours so that you know how far you have map control with your first zealot and stalker. For example, if T goes marine then tech lab, your first zealot and stalker will win any fight out to the middle of the map, but then you need to pull back because he'll soon be able to have 1 marine and 2 marauders at this point. By the time the 1 marine, 2 marauder push gets to your ramp, however, you'll have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers at this position and will be able to kill his force. This means that as soon as your 2nd stalker finishes, you can safely poke out and sweep the area around your nexus for sneaky bunkers.
Also, be sure to focus fire with your stalkers. It sounds small, but it helps a lot. Quickly taking out 1 of his first 3-5 units changes the entire game.
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If his barracks are in his base, I feel like I can defend (unless he brings a LOT of SCVs which forces me to cancel or sac the expo, but that's a pretty even trade given a 20 SCV attack).
Do you have any replays you could post of marine all ins being defended with this build?
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@kcdc
i like your build alot and i feel pretty comfortable with it, the only thing that still makes me hit my head against the wall is the Thor All-In
My Problem lies in scouting either cloak Banshee or Thor Pushes.
If the Stalker poke reveals nothing but bunker and marines, and my opponent is smart enough not to reveal anything to me it could obviously be both.
I put down a Robo pretty quick to get a safety observer (around 6-7min), but expecting banshees i obviously keep the first one @my base while the second one goes to his base reaches him around 8min, but for me the second observer comes to late for this to react properly against such a Thor push that comes around 8-10min Thor All-In.(with 2 Thors , 3 Thor with canon strike and alot of marines)
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On March 25 2011 04:56 freetgy wrote:
@kcdc
i like your build alot and i feel pretty comfortable with it, the only thing that still makes me hit my head against the wall is the Thor All-In
My Problem lies in scouting either cloak Banshee or Thor Pushes.
If the Stalker poke reveals nothing but bunker and marines, and my opponent is smart enough not to reveal anything to me it could obviously be both.
I put down a Robo pretty quick to get a safety observer (around 6-7min), but expecting banshees i obviously keep the first one @my base while the second one goes to his base reaches him around 8min, but for me the second observer comes to late for this to react properly against such a Thor push that comes around 8-10min Thor All-In.(with 2 Thors , 3 Thor with canon strike and alot of marines)
I do thor all ins alot i love thors and they are fun, i find that thor all ins are incredibly tough to deal with if you FE
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Against a 1gate FE and I'm going for 2rax 1 factory into expo I always take out the expo no matter what but besides that usually I can only pressure a 1gate FE with 2rax or w/e kill some probes try and even things out.
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Sometimes vs Thor rush you just have to sac the expo for a while. It sucks because it's hard to scout but don't be afraid to let that nex die and keep your units alive up the ramp, where you have the favorable engagement.
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On March 25 2011 05:16 yarkO wrote:
Sometimes vs Thor rush you just have to sac the expo for a while. It sucks because it's hard to scout but don't be afraid to let that nex die and keep your units alive up the ramp, where you have the favorable engagement.
this, or even for close position bio push, don't be afraid to let your nexus tank damage while you wait for another round of warp gates. the only build i've ever consistently lost to that i couldn't recognize my own mistakes and bad unit comp would be against thor rush with strike cannons. i haven't played vs. one in a long time though, and i've improved my control greatly so maybe it would be different now.
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On March 25 2011 04:56 freetgy wrote:
@kcdc
i like your build alot and i feel pretty comfortable with it, the only thing that still makes me hit my head against the wall is the Thor All-In
My Problem lies in scouting either cloak Banshee or Thor Pushes.
If the Stalker poke reveals nothing but bunker and marines, and my opponent is smart enough not to reveal anything to me it could obviously be both.
I put down a Robo pretty quick to get a safety observer (around 6-7min), but expecting banshees i obviously keep the first one @my base while the second one goes to his base reaches him around 8min, but for me the second observer comes to late for this to react properly against such a Thor push that comes around 8-10min Thor All-In.(with 2 Thors , 3 Thor with canon strike and alot of marines)
Thor all-ins are very strong in close positions. The key to defending them is maxing out your zealot count and getting a pincer. Hitting from both sides simultaneously makes a huge difference because it lets you kill the marines first, bringing T's DPS down quickly. If T looks really all-in and you know you can't defend your expo, it's okay to think about sacrificing your expo and either holding your ramp or countering. Thors are super slow, so they can only give you trouble in close positions on a couple maps.
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Man, I love your builds. The PvP build you have is also amazing. You should let me obs some of your games while you do these builds since we're on the same team and all :D
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On March 25 2011 05:26 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 04:56 freetgy wrote:
@kcdc
i like your build alot and i feel pretty comfortable with it, the only thing that still makes me hit my head against the wall is the Thor All-In
My Problem lies in scouting either cloak Banshee or Thor Pushes.
If the Stalker poke reveals nothing but bunker and marines, and my opponent is smart enough not to reveal anything to me it could obviously be both.
I put down a Robo pretty quick to get a safety observer (around 6-7min), but expecting banshees i obviously keep the first one @my base while the second one goes to his base reaches him around 8min, but for me the second observer comes to late for this to react properly against such a Thor push that comes around 8-10min Thor All-In.(with 2 Thors , 3 Thor with canon strike and alot of marines) Thor all-ins are very strong in close positions. The key to defending them is maxing out your zealot count and getting a pincer. Hitting from both sides simultaneously makes a huge difference because it lets you kill the marines first, bringing T's DPS down quickly. If T looks really all-in and you know you can't defend your expo, it's okay to think about sacrificing your expo and either holding your ramp or countering. Thors are super slow, so they can only give you trouble in close positions on a couple maps.
Thor allins (imo) are actually worse vs 1gate than a 2gate robo/1gate robo/3gate expo, with 1gate your expo will kick in in time for the production to benefit you. It's just a matter of powering / cutting probes at the right time.
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kcdc, could you rate my analysis of your thought process during this build? I wrote out a little scheme.
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is he going Marauders or does he have a bunker at his ramp? get three gates(it could be 3 rax).
if he is expanding play standard. whatever that may mean (colossus probably)
concussive? be wary with units.
is he pushing out? crush it and win - gg.
he didn't push out yet by the ~5:50 - 6:10 (6:00) mark when ur wg tech is almost done? then throw down a robotics and another gas (your expo should be finishing by now)
he didn't push out yet? check for his expansion.
No expansion ~ 7:30? prepare for a all-in (throw down 2 more gates) and start cutting probes to pump more units zealot/stalker prioritizing zealots, it should be ~ 2:1 ratio (ofc u have a sentry or two already)
get obs in there ~ should get in there ~ 8:30 - 9:00 depending on map
oh my is it a RAVEN? then pump units chrono boosted off all 5 (if it is close positions and the push is imminent) Or continue pumping the units w/o chrono and add another wg/sg and delay their push with your gateway army until you get phoenix
is it a THOR push? then make more zealots and pincer them (should i add more gates than the already pre-determined 5? any immortals? should i add wg/sg as u did before and get VR? not sure about this point)
win - gg.
------------------------------------ end.
is this accurate? because i wasn't quite sure why u went 5 gate robo one game and the other u went 6 gate robo stargate vs the same push. and the thor tidbit was thrown in there because that is also a painful all-in terrans like to do vs this.
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I'm using this build a lot nowadays and it is awesome, you feel like a total baller when you expand with such few units.
I just wanted to post this to say "Huge Thanks kcdc!!!" not only you make great psot with great strategies that you also care about them and answer people's questions.
Thaaanks;)
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On March 25 2011 07:28 pandaBee wrote:
kcdc, could you rate my analysis of your thought process during this build? I wrote out a little scheme.
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is he going Marauders or does he have a bunker at his ramp? get three gates(it could be 3 rax).
if he is expanding play standard. whatever that may mean (colossus probably)
concussive? be wary with units.
is he pushing out? crush it and win - gg.
he didn't push out yet by the ~5:50 - 6:10 (6:00) mark when ur wg tech is almost done? then throw down a robotics and another gas (your expo should be finishing by now)
he didn't push out yet? check for his expansion.
No expansion ~ 7:30? prepare for a all-in (throw down 2 more gates) and start cutting probes to pump more units zealot/stalker prioritizing zealots, it should be ~ 2:1 ratio (ofc u have a sentry or two already)
get obs in there ~ should get in there ~ 8:30 - 9:00 depending on map
oh my is it a RAVEN? then pump units chrono boosted off all 5 (if it is close positions and the push is imminent) Or continue pumping the units w/o chrono and add another wg/sg and delay their push with your gateway army until you get phoenix
is it a THOR push? then make more zealots and pincer them (should i add more gates than the already pre-determined 5? any immortals? should i add wg/sg as u did before and get VR? not sure about this point)
win - gg.
------------------------------------ end.
is this accurate? because i wasn't quite sure why u went 5 gate robo one game and the other u went 6 gate robo stargate vs the same push. and the thor tidbit was thrown in there because that is also a painful all-in terrans like to do vs this.
Yeah, that all sounds about right. I don't know the clock timings off the top of my head because I go more off timings in my own build, but they sound reasonable. I probably have a scout outside T's natural by 6:30 and if I don't see an expansion, I get gates #4 and #5 as soon as I have minerals available with constant production.
If I see marauders, I usually peg T on bio expand or bio all-in and will sometimes delay my robo or skip it entirely if I want to go for a warpgate timing. Whether for defense against an all-in or pressure against an expansion, extra gateways aren't ever bad against bio plays. A few times, I've bit on a bio fake and lost to cloaked banshees, but that's my own problem for not confirming an expansion.
Also, I haven't played since the patch, but I'd imagine the 3 rax timing will be later. Because of that, I might try getting more gas earlier and cutting some stalkers for sentries. It might be the case that you'll only want 2-3 stalkers before you start working on your sentry count. In PvT, I view stalkers as something that I don't want to make at all, but sometimes the situation forces their production. The threat of 2-rax and 3-rax forced stalkers because I couldn't get enough forcefields in time to prevent zealot kiting. Stalkers were the only option to do damage. With 30 more seconds, maybe I can get enough forcefields?
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On March 25 2011 07:50 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 07:28 pandaBee wrote:
kcdc, could you rate my analysis of your thought process during this build? I wrote out a little scheme.
------------------------
is he going Marauders or does he have a bunker at his ramp? get three gates(it could be 3 rax).
if he is expanding play standard. whatever that may mean (colossus probably)
concussive? be wary with units.
is he pushing out? crush it and win - gg.
he didn't push out yet by the ~5:50 - 6:10 (6:00) mark when ur wg tech is almost done? then throw down a robotics and another gas (your expo should be finishing by now)
he didn't push out yet? check for his expansion.
No expansion ~ 7:30? prepare for a all-in (throw down 2 more gates) and start cutting probes to pump more units zealot/stalker prioritizing zealots, it should be ~ 2:1 ratio (ofc u have a sentry or two already)
get obs in there ~ should get in there ~ 8:30 - 9:00 depending on map
oh my is it a RAVEN? then pump units chrono boosted off all 5 (if it is close positions and the push is imminent) Or continue pumping the units w/o chrono and add another wg/sg and delay their push with your gateway army until you get phoenix
is it a THOR push? then make more zealots and pincer them (should i add more gates than the already pre-determined 5? any immortals? should i add wg/sg as u did before and get VR? not sure about this point)
win - gg.
------------------------------------ end.
is this accurate? because i wasn't quite sure why u went 5 gate robo one game and the other u went 6 gate robo stargate vs the same push. and the thor tidbit was thrown in there because that is also a painful all-in terrans like to do vs this.
Yeah, that all sounds about right. I don't know the clock timings off the top of my head because I go more off timings in my own build, but they sound reasonable. I probably have a scout outside T's natural by 6:30 and if I don't see an expansion, I get gates #4 and #5 as soon as I have minerals available with constant production. If I see marauders, I usually peg T on bio expand or bio all-in and will sometimes delay my robo or skip it entirely if I want to go for a warpgate timing. Whether for defense against an all-in or pressure against an expansion, extra gateways aren't ever bad against bio plays. A few times, I've bit on a bio fake and lost to cloaked banshees, but that's my own problem for not confirming an expansion. Also, I haven't played since the patch, but I'd imagine the 3 rax timing will be later. Because of that, I might try getting more gas earlier and cutting some stalkers for sentries. It might be the case that you'll only want 2-3 stalkers before you start working on your sentry count. In PvT, I view stalkers as something that I don't want to make at all, but sometimes the situation forces their production. The threat of 2-rax and 3-rax forced stalkers because I couldn't get enough forcefields in time to prevent zealot kiting. Stalkers were the only option to do damage. With 30 more seconds, maybe I can get enough forcefields?
Why don't you want to make stalkers? I always viewed them as the backbone to any protoss army. Zealots and sentries are the meatshields and casters while the stalker actually deals the damage and manages the opponents army.
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On March 25 2011 10:16 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 07:50 kcdc wrote:On March 25 2011 07:28 pandaBee wrote:
kcdc, could you rate my analysis of your thought process during this build? I wrote out a little scheme.
------------------------
is he going Marauders or does he have a bunker at his ramp? get three gates(it could be 3 rax).
if he is expanding play standard. whatever that may mean (colossus probably)
concussive? be wary with units.
is he pushing out? crush it and win - gg.
he didn't push out yet by the ~5:50 - 6:10 (6:00) mark when ur wg tech is almost done? then throw down a robotics and another gas (your expo should be finishing by now)
he didn't push out yet? check for his expansion.
No expansion ~ 7:30? prepare for a all-in (throw down 2 more gates) and start cutting probes to pump more units zealot/stalker prioritizing zealots, it should be ~ 2:1 ratio (ofc u have a sentry or two already)
get obs in there ~ should get in there ~ 8:30 - 9:00 depending on map
oh my is it a RAVEN? then pump units chrono boosted off all 5 (if it is close positions and the push is imminent) Or continue pumping the units w/o chrono and add another wg/sg and delay their push with your gateway army until you get phoenix
is it a THOR push? then make more zealots and pincer them (should i add more gates than the already pre-determined 5? any immortals? should i add wg/sg as u did before and get VR? not sure about this point)
win - gg.
------------------------------------ end.
is this accurate? because i wasn't quite sure why u went 5 gate robo one game and the other u went 6 gate robo stargate vs the same push. and the thor tidbit was thrown in there because that is also a painful all-in terrans like to do vs this.
Yeah, that all sounds about right. I don't know the clock timings off the top of my head because I go more off timings in my own build, but they sound reasonable. I probably have a scout outside T's natural by 6:30 and if I don't see an expansion, I get gates #4 and #5 as soon as I have minerals available with constant production. If I see marauders, I usually peg T on bio expand or bio all-in and will sometimes delay my robo or skip it entirely if I want to go for a warpgate timing. Whether for defense against an all-in or pressure against an expansion, extra gateways aren't ever bad against bio plays. A few times, I've bit on a bio fake and lost to cloaked banshees, but that's my own problem for not confirming an expansion. Also, I haven't played since the patch, but I'd imagine the 3 rax timing will be later. Because of that, I might try getting more gas earlier and cutting some stalkers for sentries. It might be the case that you'll only want 2-3 stalkers before you start working on your sentry count. In PvT, I view stalkers as something that I don't want to make at all, but sometimes the situation forces their production. The threat of 2-rax and 3-rax forced stalkers because I couldn't get enough forcefields in time to prevent zealot kiting. Stalkers were the only option to do damage. With 30 more seconds, maybe I can get enough forcefields? Why don't you want to make stalkers? I always viewed them as the backbone to any protoss army. Zealots and sentries are the meatshields and casters while the stalker actually deals the damage and manages the opponents army.
Actually, stalkers tickle thors, tanks, and marauders.
If you go 2:1:# (z-st-se), you will get a much better damage-dealing composition, as well as an army with a very long survivability until BFH comes out. The reason is, if zealots get in the enemies face, you win right there.
A zealot has 13.3 dps while the stalker only has 7DPS vs normal and 9DPS vs armored. That's how pathetic the stalker is. Also, the zealot costs 100 minerals while the stalker costs 125 minerals AND 50 gas. You're not getting cost-efficient units. You only want enough stalkers for AA, but phoenixes handle AA problems so much more better. Eventually, your army should consist of chargelots/phoenies vs typical MMM/MM tanks army.
BFH is a different story.
PvZ- Oh, and note that the stalker is only the back-bone in a protoss army in PvZ because zealots die to roaches (and hydras on creep) before they can get there. The reason is roaches do a crapload of damage and tank, while the hydras also do a slightly higher crap load of damage, so zealots, or even chargelots, won't make it in time.
And the reason why zealots are the backbone of the terran army is because marines have incredibly low life, and usually, marauders aren't microed to the front to tank because marines will not be able to get in range.
So basically, with roach hydra, roaches can tank with their huge 145 + armor AND do incredible DPS, while the MM army has no means of tanking except for thors, and marauders can't because marines will be unable to get in range.
This is why the protoss army uses stalkers in PvZ more, because with forcefields, you can effectively cut half an army. Also, if you use stalkers//sentries against marauders, you'll still die because the marauders that are still within range can easily focus-fire stalkers/sentries before they die because they are very durable.
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I've held a thor rush allin with a 16 nex build, i think you can hold it with a 1 gate fe lol. pull probes if you have to
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On March 25 2011 05:26 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 04:56 freetgy wrote:
@kcdc
i like your build alot and i feel pretty comfortable with it, the only thing that still makes me hit my head against the wall is the Thor All-In
My Problem lies in scouting either cloak Banshee or Thor Pushes.
If the Stalker poke reveals nothing but bunker and marines, and my opponent is smart enough not to reveal anything to me it could obviously be both.
I put down a Robo pretty quick to get a safety observer (around 6-7min), but expecting banshees i obviously keep the first one @my base while the second one goes to his base reaches him around 8min, but for me the second observer comes to late for this to react properly against such a Thor push that comes around 8-10min Thor All-In.(with 2 Thors , 3 Thor with canon strike and alot of marines) Thor all-ins are very strong in close positions. The key to defending them is maxing out your zealot count and getting a pincer. Hitting from both sides simultaneously makes a huge difference because it lets you kill the marines first, bringing T's DPS down quickly. If T looks really all-in and you know you can't defend your expo, it's okay to think about sacrificing your expo and either holding your ramp or countering. Thors are super slow, so they can only give you trouble in close positions on a couple maps.
pretty sure this has been my fault vs thor rush builds. it's true stalkers early on really aren't that efficient. thanks for the reply's kcdc.
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On March 09 2011 05:34 Binabik wrote:3650 Protoss (MasterLeague):Just wanted to show you some replays of me using 1GFE against Terran today: I played all of them on EU-Ladder. Replay 1: Close Air Metalopolis:Openings: 1G FE against Helion + 8M-Dropship harass. My thoughts: The opening helped me to get second gas early, which allowed me to get real big timing pushes (Colossi when he didn't have Vikings, High Templar when he didn't have Ghosts). There was no problem for me to defend against his early pressure. Replay 2: Cross Slag Pits:Openings: 1G FE against CloakBanshee My thoughts: I scouted the factory and got the Observer out in time. Latter on things became STRANGE! Every terran should go and watch this replay, it's insane. I have some more replays but they're not that special (one was vs Thor/Marine/Raven where I barely defended a 12 minute push). Didn't have the chance to test this build against Bio-Openings or heavy All-In builds. Worked well against 1 Racks FE. My thoughts: I really like to play like this because it prefectly fits my PvT style (Defend in the early game, get to a macro/harrass-oriented Late-game, own the terran) Although I have to admit that I was very lucky at scouting today! If a terran just does a decent wall-in, things are getting though.
you realise that your 2nd game is against NTT right? as in, a pretty famous player who is known for funky strats..
edit: hes also known for very poor manner
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EPT
