EPT[G] kcdc's PvT FE - Page 70
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Lobber
Canada414 Posts
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On March 28 2011 07:38 Lobber wrote: How do you feel about getting cannons to hold vs a MM, banshee, raven, scv all in?(or pretty much any 1 base all in except siege.) When I scout/assume an all in like this (no expand) I usually throw down a forge and up to 6 cannons getting a lot of sentries (I know you advocate almost pure zealot/stalker early when doing 1 gate fe but if I scout early no immediate pressure I get sentries earlier). Cannons having more range makes good FFs very beneficial, has about 3X the dps as stalkers, more HP, and quite cheap. If they are on 1 base you can spend all your money on cannons and pull probes; if you survive you'll be ahead. (even if he doesn't pull scvs) I remember that kcdc said it was a good idea. In my opinion, it's a good idea. Why? It's because the terran is all-ining with SCV's. Day9 said so too. If a player is going to all-in you with everything, why don't you just spend all your resources to defend it? If he sacrifices everything, he won't have enough at home, while you have a strong economy despite cutting probes to get the cannons. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
Without Ravens, Canons obviously is a good choice, since it also gives detection. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On March 28 2011 08:00 freetgy wrote: think so too for normal attacks at least, but i think PDD negates Canon shoots to, that where Additional Zealots or Immortals could be better spend. Without Ravens, Canons obviously is a good choice, since it also gives detection. Well. That's actually useful because the cannons take down the PDD fast, which allows for all your stalkers (the main unit for FE defense in 1 gate fe) to actually attack. Since they both have decent attack speeds, the PDD will not be that effective. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
On March 31 2011 00:37 kcdc wrote: Added a VOD to the OP of Adel crushing MVP in TSL3. What do people think of his transition? blink stalker was an ok choice, but i find its vital to go for collosus quickly. a 2/2 push with a punch of gateway units and 3 or 4 collo with range is pretty fuckin hard to stop. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 31 2011 00:41 da_head wrote: blink stalker was an ok choice, but i find its vital to go for collosus quickly. a 2/2 push with a punch of gateway units and 3 or 4 collo with range is pretty fuckin hard to stop. I think Adel's goal was to take a super-fast third while securing an upgrade lead. Obviously, P wants colossi against bio, but going blink before colossi was a means to accomplish the goal of upgrades + fast third. If he'd gone for upgrades and colossi, he wouldn't have had enough mobility to defend 3 bases against drops, and he would have had to delay the third several minutes. | ||
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Garth
United States353 Posts
The bigger the MM blob gets the more I am going to need sentries, however, adding sentries would make me very weak vs an early pressure. I just lost a game vs a 3 rax when I threw up 5 gates and made zealots and stalkers and chronoed the gates. I had about 32 probes and still couldn't hold on backwater. Any tips ? | ||
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
On March 31 2011 01:11 kcdc wrote: I think Adel's goal was to take a super-fast third while securing an upgrade lead. Obviously, P wants colossi against bio, but going blink before colossi was a means to accomplish the goal of upgrades + fast third. If he'd gone for upgrades and colossi, he wouldn't have had enough mobility to defend 3 bases against drops, and he would have had to delay the third several minutes. No, he took the super fast third in a response of MVPs army waste. If MVP didn't waste his army like that, i'm sure he would have delayed the third much more and would have chosen to get colossus. That heavy gateway style works only when the MMM numbers aren't high, especially Medivacs are key. There were numerous instances were everythign went in adels favor, mostly due to poor play by mvp. For instance with his first gateway army push, he could snipe 2-3 medivacs because mvp was out of position.So he kept the mmm ball small, and as long as you got an upgrade lead and a bigger economy / gateway army, you can basically play zerg style and slam huge unit balls against his army until you get him down. Also important is to let as much stalker survive as possible, so you can mass up a good stalker ball and only replace cheap zealots that tank dmg. But this style doesn't work if he stays more defensive, scouts that you delay / don't go colossus, and builds a good amount of marines / medivacs. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On April 01 2011 05:45 Elefanto wrote: No, he took the super fast third in a response of MVPs army waste. If MVP didn't waste his army like that, i'm sure he would have delayed the third much more and would have chosen to get colossus. That heavy gateway style works only when the MMM numbers aren't high, especially Medivacs are key. There were numerous instances were everythign went in adels favor, mostly due to poor play by mvp. For instance with his first gateway army push, he could snipe 2-3 medivacs because mvp was out of position.So he kept the mmm ball small, and as long as you got an upgrade lead and a bigger economy / gateway army, you can basically play zerg style and slam huge unit balls against his army until you get him down. Also important is to let as much stalker survive as possible, so you can mass up a good stalker ball and only replace cheap zealots that tank dmg. But this style doesn't work if he stays more defensive, scouts that you delay / don't go colossus, and builds a good amount of marines / medivacs. When did MVP 'waste' his army? I think it's pretty clear from these games that Adel intended to go heavy macro with gateway units and upgrades. He even said in the interview that he chose this style of favoring mass gates over colossi in order to use the mobility of the gateway composition to counter MVP's drop style. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On April 01 2011 05:36 Garth wrote: I'm having a lot of trouble now in pretty high masters vs late hitting 3 rax all-ins with mostly bio. The bigger the MM blob gets the more I am going to need sentries, however, adding sentries would make me very weak vs an early pressure. I just lost a game vs a 3 rax when I threw up 5 gates and made zealots and stalkers and chronoed the gates. I had about 32 probes and still couldn't hold on backwater. Any tips ? Post the replay. Stim timings are really slow now, so it's a lot easier to get your sentry count up. | ||
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Trakky
95 Posts
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On April 03 2011 02:04 Trakky wrote: I want to transition into a double forge strat after throwin down 4 more gateways after nexus and not utilize colli until much laer, would it be wise to throw down a blind robo and get an obs out incase of any cloak banshee? and if so, when should I get it? You only get robo if you don't see the bioball: marines and marauders. Otherwise, get it. You can actually just put 1 cannon in each mineral line, and 1 at your natural choke to defend from all cloaked banshee builds. However, you'll still need that robo for mobile detection, as you only get cannons if the terran is going 1 base cloaked banshees. If it's 2 base, and you scout a crap load of marines, get the robo. | ||
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
On April 02 2011 23:34 kcdc wrote: When did MVP 'waste' his army? I think it's pretty clear from these games that Adel intended to go heavy macro with gateway units and upgrades. He even said in the interview that he chose this style of favoring mass gates over colossi in order to use the mobility of the gateway composition to counter MVP's drop style. 6:50, after that fight adelscott takes his third. MVP lost that fight badly, adelscott only lost some zealots | ||
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Trakky
95 Posts
On April 03 2011 02:21 iChau wrote: You only get robo if you don't see the bioball: marines and marauders. Otherwise, get it. You can actually just put 1 cannon in each mineral line, and 1 at your natural choke to defend from all cloaked banshee builds. However, you'll still need that robo for mobile detection, as you only get cannons if the terran is going 1 base cloaked banshees. If it's 2 base, and you scout a crap load of marines, get the robo. um I think you're contradicting yourself quite a bit there. So if I don't see the bioball, I get the robo (you said "get it in the first line of 2nd paragraph") but how come when it's 2 base and I scout a crap load of bio, I would still get robo? Can you please clarify this? | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On April 03 2011 11:38 Trakky wrote: um I think you're contradicting yourself quite a bit there. So if I don't see the bioball, I get the robo (you said "get it in the first line of 2nd paragraph") but how come when it's 2 base and I scout a crap load of bio, I would still get robo? Can you please clarify this? Okay. Against Bio Ball which means marines and marauders: You don't need a robo. Against any other factory/starport builds: You need a forge to DEFEND, but then you need a robo for MOBILE detection. I said crap load of marines because when you only see marines, it means there's gas-heavy units. The cannons are for defending like I said earlier, they just allow you to macro up until you want to expand or move out again. | ||
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RevaLution
Singapore68 Posts
Does getting DT tech would be a good transition into the mid game? Can protoss survive into the late game with only the basic 3 gateway unit if you 1.) are on better upgrades than him 2.) are on a base higher than him If during early, a bunker is building, and it will requires not cost-effective methods to deny the bunker(example, losing some probes), would it be better to cancel the nexus? | ||
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Khaladas
United States223 Posts
On March 31 2011 01:11 kcdc wrote: I think Adel's goal was to take a super-fast third while securing an upgrade lead. Obviously, P wants colossi against bio, but going blink before colossi was a means to accomplish the goal of upgrades + fast third. If he'd gone for upgrades and colossi, he wouldn't have had enough mobility to defend 3 bases against drops, and he would have had to delay the third several minutes. I have been playing around with getting blink first to help stop drops and I feel like it works better than getting charge or going for fast colossi. My plan now is to either 1 gate FE or gate + robo + obs expand. Then get a robo first if I don't already have one, then start adding on gateways up to about 5-7 based on what I can afford ( i.e if I miss warpins i may need extra gates ). Somewhere in there I double forge and start upgrading. I find that upgraded gateway units + immortal can take you pretty far. After I repel their push and/or whenever I go for my third I start thinking about getting serious about AOE and getting templar or colossi. Don't delay on getting AOE too much or you will find their MMM ball just becomes beastly. If you are really good like Adel you can delay even longer.  This I think this transition setsup better overall because when your colossi come out you already have a great set of upgrades and a nice base army to protect them, plus blink to help cut down viking numbers. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On April 08 2011 09:25 RevaLution wrote: Hey there, when i first saw it , i was amazed at the result that it helped me boost my PVT winning rate by quite abit. Does getting DT tech would be a good transition into the mid game? Can protoss survive into the late game with only the basic 3 gateway unit if you 1.) are on better upgrades than him 2.) are on a base higher than him If during early, a bunker is building, and it will requires not cost-effective methods to deny the bunker(example, losing some probes), would it be better to cancel the nexus? 1) Yes (double forge). 2) Yes as long as you have a lot of gateways. 6 gates 2 base, 8-10 gates 3 base. This is assuming vs Bio. Charge and sentries is a necessity. Guardian shield is a fucking boss. I really never used guardian shield because I thought forcefields were so much better.. Well, guardian shield makes zealots so much more beefy, and is incredibly useful when you pop it out while you're in a nice little ball. Against EMP's, don't ball up though, obviously. | ||
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brainpower
United States233 Posts
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