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Anomandaris
Afghanistan440 Posts
and that concussion upgraded marauders melt all gateway units Marauder only is actually pretty easy to hold off with pure gateway. Stalker+ zealot beat them pretty bad costwise. Terran should only make a couple of marauders to slow the units and make marines for the rest. Marine dps is insane. | ||
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Retgery
Canada1229 Posts
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sAfuRos
United States743 Posts
On August 14 2010 09:23 Retgery wrote: meh, might as well try it, whats there to lose? Points Marauder only is actually pretty easy to hold off with pure gateway. Stalker+ zealot beat them pretty bad costwise. Terran should only make a couple of marauders to slow the units and make marines for the rest. Marine dps is insane. Wait what? Gateway units easily beat mass marauder? Lolwut? | ||
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DevAzTaYtA
Oman2005 Posts
for some reason even the top diamond terran players don't seem to change their build much even if they see the lack of second gas (my guess is they expect cheese most of the time) so you rarely see 3/4 rax marauder all-ins. you definitely want to build 4-5 rax right after nexus is up and robo asap if you suspect banshees. also keep a probe outside their base and begin cutting probes as soon as you think they are moving out. i suspect this build will lose effectiveness once terrans learn how to counter it, but for now its hella strong. | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
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altairian
United States105 Posts
On August 14 2010 10:01 sAfuRos wrote: Wait what? Gateway units easily beat mass marauder? Lolwut? Naked marauders are just as much of a joke as naked stalkers. But please, continue thinking that mass marauder beats protoss, I'd really love to play you ;D | ||
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
Potential solutions: toss up your 2nd assimilator earlier, but don't start mining from it until you have established yourself. That, or grab a 3rd assimilator rather quickly so that you can get an observer out and charge. Also, you really don't need to transfer your probes unless you're saturated or near saturation at your main. You're really losing more mining time than is gained. Plus, if you have to pull back a little up your ramp, you lose even more mining time as you have to save the probes at the expansion. When you have about 24-ish probes, then its probably time to transfer, or better yet, just rally both nexuses down to your expansion. EDIT: I really want to add this to my openings for Protoss. Usually what I do is a fast blink w/ obs strat that puts some early aggression on Terran and then expand around the 35-40 supply range. If played properly, the Terran really doesn't have an answer to the stalkers without turrets, sensor towers, medivacs, or a few tanks. While the stalkers won't end the game, they'll pretty much shut down a Terran that is preparing for an early timing attack (around the 7-8 minute mark). I like this FE play because it is a very different play style where you coax the Terran into trying to bust your fort. However, I think Terran players are going to wise up a bit and just FE themselves as soon as they see your nexus. The build is pretty easy to spot, as well. Late gateway, chronoing in a bunch of units, no 2nd gate or gas, so they can safely put up an expansion at about the same time as yours. From there its a macro game that can evolve many ways. | ||
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JiSu
Korea (South)140 Posts
Most Terrans don't seem to do it nowadays but I feel like if they scout your late gateway then they might go for early reaper | ||
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altairian
United States105 Posts
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naventus
United States1339 Posts
On August 14 2010 11:14 DevAzTaYtA wrote: this build order is great, has helped my pvt a ton thanks. for some reason even the top diamond terran players don't seem to change their build much even if they see the lack of second gas (my guess is they expect cheese most of the time) so you rarely see 3/4 rax marauder all-ins. lack of second gas can mean a lot of things. P can always take it after your SCV is gone around 20. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On August 14 2010 17:18 junemermaid wrote: Because of the low gas by foregoing the 2nd extractor and stalker production, you can only reasonably choose one tech path, either twilight or robotics. ..... Also, you really don't need to transfer your probes unless you're saturated or near saturation at your main. You're really losing more mining time than is gained. I always get robo up before twilight. While I love charge, I find that I can survive mid-gate timing pushes without it by just having a lot of units. The only thing that's really tough to defend without charge is well controlled MMM because the medivacs let them endlessly stim and whittle away your army. Without charge, you basically have to get good forcefields off in order to not die, and that can sometimes be difficult. As for probe transfer, I think it's important to transfer early because I like to have plenty of probes to pull from the nat if they're needed. | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
In situations where they also FE, this makes it a lot easier to stay one base ahead since your nexus finishes before their cc, and the chrono'd gateway provides enough guys to make you seem pretty scary. If you're able to do some convincing aggression at the beginning before you get fully up and running, one of the nice things is that you can double tech off of two base, and do a 2 void ray harass while getting robo or whatnot. I strongly recommend moderately aggressive play once your 3 warpgates are up. This way you keep tabs on their army and keep them on the back foot, easing you into your third. Also, in my opinion, you might as well trade off gateway units for equal values of infantry as long as you can, since a bio ball gets worse to fight as it grows, and that puts a sort of economic pressure on them. Last things I'll note: the 14 gate just seems really strong in general. It transitions nicely into fast tech with more gates if you see some kind of big attack being prepared, or cannons + upgrades. The 9 scout is stellar on small 2 player maps like Steppes as well. Probe harass is super fun and generally gets a 5-10 delay on their barracks and/or an scv kill, and warns you of reapers on 4 player maps. I am thinking double FE will be common enough in PvT. | ||
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
On August 15 2010 09:06 kcdc wrote: I always get robo up before twilight. While I love charge, I find that I can survive mid-gate timing pushes without it by just having a lot of units. The only thing that's really tough to defend without charge is well controlled MMM because the medivacs let them endlessly stim and whittle away your army. Without charge, you basically have to get good forcefields off in order to not die, and that can sometimes be difficult. As for probe transfer, I think it's important to transfer early because I like to have plenty of probes to pull from the nat if they're needed. Have you played against a marauder hellion push (with the blue sparks)? Without charge it might be really really hard to stop, if not impossible. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On August 15 2010 13:02 junemermaid wrote: Have you played against a marauder hellion push (with the blue sparks)? Without charge it might be really really hard to stop, if not impossible. I have played against marauder hellion pushes, but I don't think they've had the blue flame upgrade. That's something to try, but with the gas required for marauders, a factory, conc shell, stim, and infernal pre-ignitor, it sounds like it would hit late enough that I'd be able to defend by just having a lot of stalkers. You can barely get stim in time to hit before my FE starts kicking in income. | ||
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naventus
United States1339 Posts
I think stargate is more aggressive like the old robotics. both void ray and phoenix can help stall and break pushes. I'm not really sure what role, if any the immortal plays. colossus is also probably overshadowed by templar vs T. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On August 15 2010 22:03 naventus wrote: + a late stargate after your 3 gates would not be bad, if the T expanded as well. I think stargate is more aggressive like the old robotics. both void ray and phoenix can help stall and break pushes. I'm not really sure what role, if any the immortal plays. colossus is also probably overshadowed by templar vs T. Observers, man. Observers. | ||
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wxwx
527 Posts
No need to single gas, no need to chronoboost gateway. You don't necessarily need a special build order for fast expo. Just do standard, and throw down a nexus if you are lucky to scout a fast factory from the terran. | ||
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Nah
Poland50 Posts
On August 16 2010 00:40 wxwx wrote: No need to single gas, no need to chronoboost gateway. You don't necessarily need a special build order for fast expo. Just do standard, and throw down a nexus if you are lucky to scout a fast factory from the terran. Yes but this build grants survival low tier pushes as well. Every build/strat lessens the luck factor. The only downside I see with this build is that after initial push Protoss is forced to make few rounds of low tier units, because of possible re-push. Intense teching might cost the game. | ||
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blabber
United States4448 Posts
http://starcraft2reps.com/index.php?a=details&id=1229 | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On August 16 2010 05:31 blabber wrote: this does not work vs all-in scv/4rax marine rush http://starcraft2reps.com/index.php?a=details&id=1229 Hah, yeah, if you play like that, you'll lose to a lot of crap attacks. You did something funky with a canceled assimilator, you didn't build a zealot before stalker, you didn't chronoboost your gateway, and you didn't even come close to constant unit production w/o chronoboost on your gateway. Unsurprisingly, you had almost nothing when he set out. Even with those huge mistakes, you still could have won had you had a probe on the watch tower to see his scv attack coming. You should have simply pulled back into your main, sacked your expo and forcefielded the ramp. He would have lost far more than 400 minerals in lost mining by pulling all of his scvs, so you'd be way ahead even with the lost nexus. You probably could have still saved the game had you ran into your main instead of away from your ramp when he showed up. If you'd just run the right way, you could have done the same forcefielding tactic, although you would have lost your probes as well as your nexus, so it would have been about even afterwards. | ||
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