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On August 18 2010 06:51 kcdc wrote:
This FE absolutely spanks 1-1-1 openers. Remember, the nexus gives a little more supply than a pylon, so it only takes 300 minerals + cost of extra probes for the FE to pay for itself. That happens very quickly--well before a good 1-1-1 timing attack will hit. Any attack that happens after that point would be stronger against a 1-base Protoss than a FE Protoss.
The problem for you is that you are going to be 8-12 food behind me when I come pay you a visit, and you are not going to have the option to hide behind FF and make up the difference. As I am Terran and can sit behind wall & tech for the first 5 mins, my army consists of T1, T2 and T3 while yours consists of T1.
I think that you misunderstand the definition of "timing," it's the timeframe during which you are weak and I am strong. As Terran, by turning all of my minerals and gas into supply, I am making myself strong. As Protoss, the opportunity cost of a FE (unit production, extra gateways) makes you weak until the benefit of the FE makes it up. You can argue about spanking as much as you wish, but the fact is that there is a definite timing window during which you are vulnerable; much more so to a 1-1-1 unit comp than a 3 rax comp as I have stronger units and you don't have the benefit of FF being able to affect my entire army.
The premise of this post is: I take FE and beat Terran 100% of the time b/c of superior macro. I am highlighting the obvious counter from a 1-1-1 build (besides expanding myself, which is what I would have to do if I felt like I could not get away with a push).
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Thanks! I've been looking for a way to FE without a forge xD
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On August 18 2010 07:23 Shaithis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 06:51 kcdc wrote:
This FE absolutely spanks 1-1-1 openers. Remember, the nexus gives a little more supply than a pylon, so it only takes 300 minerals + cost of extra probes for the FE to pay for itself. That happens very quickly--well before a good 1-1-1 timing attack will hit. Any attack that happens after that point would be stronger against a 1-base Protoss than a FE Protoss. The problem for you is that you are going to be 8-12 food behind me when I come pay you a visit, and you are not going to have the option to hide behind FF and make up the difference. As I am Terran and can sit behind wall & tech for the first 5 mins, my army consists of T1, T2 and T3 while yours consists of T1. I think that you misunderstand the definition of "timing," it's the timeframe during which you are weak and I am strong. As Terran, by turning all of my minerals and gas into supply, I am making myself strong. As Protoss, the opportunity cost of a FE (unit production, extra gateways) makes you weak until the benefit of the FE makes it up. You can argue about spanking as much as you wish, but the fact is that there is a definite timing window during which you are vulnerable; much more so to a 1-1-1 unit comp than a 3 rax comp as I have stronger units and you don't have the benefit of FF being able to affect my entire army. The premise of this post is: I take FE and beat Terran 100% of the time b/c of superior macro. I am highlighting the obvious counter from a 1-1-1 build (besides expanding myself, which is what I would have to do if I felt like I could not get away with a push).
Check my last post. With CB on both Gates P actually is even if not ahead in pure army supply aswell as total food.
Also Protoss is able to get 1 Immo before your push so at least one T2 Unit which, on paper (practice -> micro), disvalues a huge portion of your tech-advantage.
At last I think you underestimate the opportunity costs (army supply wise) of your own build. It takes 600/300 to set up the 1/1/1 while kcdc's FE with 1 additional Gate + Robo is at 825/150 (2x 150 Gateways + 200/100 Robo + 50/50 WG Tech + 275 effective Costs for Nexus because the Supply granted by is used before the push happens). In Addition P can compete with your production capacity because of double CB so you can not just delay your push for 1 or 2 production cycles. And if you wait to long, Protoss overcome even the Nexus-Investment of 275 which is the only real Gap between you and him.
So far the theory.
I wount argue that P can have decent trouble defending against this, but as I said to the 3 Rax Push, to me it seems not like Autowin for T.
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On August 18 2010 08:17 Xanatoss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 07:23 Shaithis wrote:On August 18 2010 06:51 kcdc wrote:
This FE absolutely spanks 1-1-1 openers. Remember, the nexus gives a little more supply than a pylon, so it only takes 300 minerals + cost of extra probes for the FE to pay for itself. That happens very quickly--well before a good 1-1-1 timing attack will hit. Any attack that happens after that point would be stronger against a 1-base Protoss than a FE Protoss. The problem for you is that you are going to be 8-12 food behind me when I come pay you a visit, and you are not going to have the option to hide behind FF and make up the difference. As I am Terran and can sit behind wall & tech for the first 5 mins, my army consists of T1, T2 and T3 while yours consists of T1. I think that you misunderstand the definition of "timing," it's the timeframe during which you are weak and I am strong. As Terran, by turning all of my minerals and gas into supply, I am making myself strong. As Protoss, the opportunity cost of a FE (unit production, extra gateways) makes you weak until the benefit of the FE makes it up. You can argue about spanking as much as you wish, but the fact is that there is a definite timing window during which you are vulnerable; much more so to a 1-1-1 unit comp than a 3 rax comp as I have stronger units and you don't have the benefit of FF being able to affect my entire army. The premise of this post is: I take FE and beat Terran 100% of the time b/c of superior macro. I am highlighting the obvious counter from a 1-1-1 build (besides expanding myself, which is what I would have to do if I felt like I could not get away with a push). Check my last post. With CB on both Gates P actually is even if not ahead in pure army supply aswell as total food. Also Protoss is able to get 1 Immo before your push so at least one T2 Unit which, on paper (practice -> micro), disvalues a huge portion of your tech-advantage. At last I think you underestimate the opportunity costs (army supply wise) of your own build. It takes 600/300 to set up the 1/1/1 while kcdc's FE with 1 additional Gate + Robo is at 825/150 (2x 150 Gateways + 200/100 Robo + 50/50 WG Tech + 275 effective Costs for Nexus because the Supply granted by is used before the push happens). In Addition P can compete with your production capacity because of double CB so you can not just delay your push for 1 or 2 production cycles. And if you wait to long, Protoss overcome even the Nexus-Investment of 275 which is the only real Gap between you and him. So far the theory.
Let's not forget that I am happily MULEing away while you are saving chronoboost for gates. Incidentally, I get my 2nd gas way before you. You are in a much worse position with your 275 mineral deficit than I am with my 150 gas deficit. Also, the lone immortal gets torn to shreds by marine + banshee focus fire, not even sure if it's a good idea to go for robo instead of getting another gate (stargate would be ideal if you knew what was coming). Your best bet (barring stargate) is probably mass zealots to overwhelm my ground and pull back; banshees are woefully slow at picking off small high-DPS targets.
By the way, the play I am describing was very popular on Asian servers during beta. I think that most of the top-tier Protoss have adapted by not expanding vs 1-1-1 until they establish map control.
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On August 18 2010 08:39 Shaithis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 08:17 Xanatoss wrote:On August 18 2010 07:23 Shaithis wrote:On August 18 2010 06:51 kcdc wrote:
This FE absolutely spanks 1-1-1 openers. Remember, the nexus gives a little more supply than a pylon, so it only takes 300 minerals + cost of extra probes for the FE to pay for itself. That happens very quickly--well before a good 1-1-1 timing attack will hit. Any attack that happens after that point would be stronger against a 1-base Protoss than a FE Protoss. The problem for you is that you are going to be 8-12 food behind me when I come pay you a visit, and you are not going to have the option to hide behind FF and make up the difference. As I am Terran and can sit behind wall & tech for the first 5 mins, my army consists of T1, T2 and T3 while yours consists of T1. I think that you misunderstand the definition of "timing," it's the timeframe during which you are weak and I am strong. As Terran, by turning all of my minerals and gas into supply, I am making myself strong. As Protoss, the opportunity cost of a FE (unit production, extra gateways) makes you weak until the benefit of the FE makes it up. You can argue about spanking as much as you wish, but the fact is that there is a definite timing window during which you are vulnerable; much more so to a 1-1-1 unit comp than a 3 rax comp as I have stronger units and you don't have the benefit of FF being able to affect my entire army. The premise of this post is: I take FE and beat Terran 100% of the time b/c of superior macro. I am highlighting the obvious counter from a 1-1-1 build (besides expanding myself, which is what I would have to do if I felt like I could not get away with a push). Check my last post. With CB on both Gates P actually is even if not ahead in pure army supply aswell as total food. Also Protoss is able to get 1 Immo before your push so at least one T2 Unit which, on paper (practice -> micro), disvalues a huge portion of your tech-advantage. At last I think you underestimate the opportunity costs (army supply wise) of your own build. It takes 600/300 to set up the 1/1/1 while kcdc's FE with 1 additional Gate + Robo is at 825/150 (2x 150 Gateways + 200/100 Robo + 50/50 WG Tech + 275 effective Costs for Nexus because the Supply granted by is used before the push happens). In Addition P can compete with your production capacity because of double CB so you can not just delay your push for 1 or 2 production cycles. And if you wait to long, Protoss overcome even the Nexus-Investment of 275 which is the only real Gap between you and him. So far the theory. Let's not forget that I am happily MULEing away while you are saving chronoboost for gates. Incidentally, I get my 2nd gas way before you. You are in a much worse position with your 275 mineral deficit than I am with my 150 gas deficit. Also, the lone immortal gets torn to shreds by marine + banshee focus fire, not even sure if it's a good idea to go for robo instead of getting another gate (stargate would be ideal if you knew what was coming). Your best bet (barring stargate) is probably mass zealots to overwhelm my ground and pull back; banshees are woefully slow at picking off small high-DPS targets. By the way, the play I am describing was very popular on Asian servers during beta. I think that most of the top-tier Protoss have adapted by not expanding vs 1-1-1 until they establish map control.
Actually the first 75 Energy with this opening goes directly into probes. Therefore ~2 Workers ahead at 16 Food partial compensating your Mule-Advantage. As i think about, I could even squeeze in one or two additional CB on Main Nexus before Expo. Have to test :D
In addition, getting my 2nd gas later than you actually benefits me (closing the 225 Gap faster), according to your claim that minerals are more important than gas, combined with the fact that I dont even need that much gas early on while your 1/1/1 really starves for it.
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Theorycraft the strength of 1/1/1 against this all you want. I haven't lost to 1/1/1 since I started doing it. And it makes me happy in the pants.
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On August 18 2010 07:23 Shaithis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 06:51 kcdc wrote:
This FE absolutely spanks 1-1-1 openers. Remember, the nexus gives a little more supply than a pylon, so it only takes 300 minerals + cost of extra probes for the FE to pay for itself. That happens very quickly--well before a good 1-1-1 timing attack will hit. Any attack that happens after that point would be stronger against a 1-base Protoss than a FE Protoss. The problem for you is that you are going to be 8-12 food behind me when I come pay you a visit, and you are not going to have the option to hide behind FF and make up the difference. As I am Terran and can sit behind wall & tech for the first 5 mins, my army consists of T1, T2 and T3 while yours consists of T1. I think that you misunderstand the definition of "timing," it's the timeframe during which you are weak and I am strong. As Terran, by turning all of my minerals and gas into supply, I am making myself strong. As Protoss, the opportunity cost of a FE (unit production, extra gateways) makes you weak until the benefit of the FE makes it up. You can argue about spanking as much as you wish, but the fact is that there is a definite timing window during which you are vulnerable; much more so to a 1-1-1 unit comp than a 3 rax comp as I have stronger units and you don't have the benefit of FF being able to affect my entire army. The premise of this post is: I take FE and beat Terran 100% of the time b/c of superior macro. I am highlighting the obvious counter from a 1-1-1 build (besides expanding myself, which is what I would have to do if I felt like I could not get away with a push).
You should hit up kcdc and try some games against him.
In my experience I can destroy 1/1/1 builds, even with a positional disadvantage (recent game i played on xel'naga caverns). Granted I'm only ~500 diamond but I think it's quite effective.
The problem I have most with this build is a massive MMM+ghost push off 1 base, but I think it can be countered by cutting probes and making units instead. It's just a scouting thing.
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Yeah, I don't really need to argue about 1/1/1 vs this FE....I've played it out dozens of times. This build beats 1/1/1. One might even go as far as to say expanding early is the best way to beat 1/1/1 since T has to pour so much early money into teching that you can secure your expansion very easily.
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You should edit the first post to note that you added things to it. I didn't notice that until now. Good stuff.
How do you feel about Hallucination? You can make some quick Hallucinated Zealots for a meatshield for your Stalkers. There's really no reason they'd comstat a Zealot-Stalker army and they won't likely have Ghosts in the relevant time frame (EMP wouldn't even be all that great in that situation anyways). Plus, the early Phoenix for recon would help you scout out Terran tech. You could even fake a failed Void Ray rush which would do your scouting plus potentially make them build useless things. And personally, I like map scouting more then Tech scouting so 4 probes in key map positions for a minute sounds like a good use of energy. The only issue is that Sentries + Stalkers is fairly gas intense.
It would be less efficient if you actually need the Observers for detection, but with the expansion it's less a efficiency question then a timing question.
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My 3 problems with the build have been..
1. 11 stimmed marauders at my base at 8:00-8:20ish depending on map.. I have barely been able to hold it off by using probes but still not 100% sure if I can beat it reliably if the guy had really good micro..
2. Marine+ghost+marauder build that in one of the replays shows kcdc beating it.. but in that game he went 4 gateways then robo.. so I think banshee rush wouldve killed him that game if the guy did that instead.. Which is why I died to the build because I got the 3rd/4th gateway a bit later to survive banshees but then died to that.
3. Banshees.. having 2 bases makes it a lot harder to defend.. in that replay of you defending banshee rush that guy didnt even have an idea you had 2 bases... if he did it couldve been a lot harder like mine was with non stop harass at both bases where I had to have one observer at both bases with stalkers on each side and it still was hard.. and that didnt allow me to scout his base
To me it seems if you build the robo later you can die to banshees if you build the robo earlier then you can die to marine+ghost... but every other build I have beaten so far.. If I can figure out when to build the gateways/robo to be able to survive those 2 timing attacks with the same build then I will be happy..
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I tried this build and I have to say I am surprised. It's easier than I thought.
So far, I encountered 3 different strats with it:
MMM+ghost : easily countered by forcefield + zealots, no charge yet
Factory build, siege tanks around T's expand : once with a huge ball of chargelots and blink stalkers, it's fine. Yet, maybe going air is better.
Marines/ghost: ??? I failed miserably. The ghost is not the problem. Marines are. They rape everything and by the time they come I have no upgrade like charge or blink. Any idea on how to counter this ? Maybe a few canons at nexus ?
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I'm around 500 Diamond
for the early marauder pushes, what actually worked for me was throwing down a forge right after you get ur nexus. I only put one canon and it was enough to hold off a 3 rax push. Since canons outrange the marauders, they cant micro your units safely. Sorry i didnt save the replay for it, but try it.
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Did a bunch of timings in single player to support my multi player style.
Turns out, unless the map is a big one, if they open with a tech lab before any marines and then go 3rax, you'll probably be on the losing end of the battle unless you bring in a whole bunch of probes.
Numbers as I recall them, could be adjustable:
~06:50 -> warpgate finishing. If you cut probes at 30 supply, you can still get nexus, chrono another unit from gate, throw down a pylon and 3 more gates, you'll have 4warpgates done around this time. 4th gate will probably be up a bit after research is done. Before warpgate is finished, you normally will have something like 3stalker 2zealot 1sentry, numbers are changable - but in general it'll be 6 units.
Problem is around 06:13 - at this time on average map a 3rax build with fast tech lab will hit you with something like 4rine 3rad (i think...or was it 6rine 4 rad? or was it 06:40 for 4rad army, or 06:10? my notes aren't here, but i think it was like that) against your 3(2)stalker 2(3) zealot. Even if you cut probes, you're about 4 probes ahead with an ability to replenish them faster due to 2nd nexus, and as far as force goes you'll be able to catch up in units very quick once wg's are up due to chrono on them AND extra supply from the nexus.
So if brininging about 6 probes will make you survive until you can warp stuff in, you'll be in an okay spot.
It works same way with that probe cut and 1gate->4warpgate against a 2marine->3rax maradeur/rine attack, except it's easier to stop so you can do it on small maps, too. Might even be enough to just have 3gates AND get the standard 2nd gas and robo(needs more testing).
The good stuff is that your probe can see the raxes early enough for the very decision of getting the nexus if it's a tech lab. Actually, even against the 2marine opening you still make a decision to expand later - it's just that sometimes you lose probe while they get raxes in some corner or proxy them and you're not sure of their actions. In those cases, by cutting ~3 probes for earlier gateways, you'll be safe for sure - and you still have the money for gas/robo.
Finally, I had someone banshee rush me yesterday, and I allowed it to do way too much damage :D. So I researched the timings too. While the guy did not proxy his banshees, he used a tech lab from his factory to make it and we're close spots anyway.
Basically, the first banshee came after 07:something - when warp gates are done. The CLOAK was done with second banshee at ~08:10.
This makes me say that a good way to handle banshees is to start robo at about 06:40 - when 3rd gateway is like 60%-75% done, then chrono observer. Your units should be able to prevent first banshee from doing much damage, a small window is there when it's two banshees with cloak, two bases and only one obs. Perhaps bringing all probes to one base until second obs is out(which with chrono is 26 gametime seconds after first one is out) would work nicely.
I still want to see how probes and a force before wg's are up can handle 06:10 - 06:40 timing attacks, specially on small maps.
I want to see how it handles ghost timings...haven't had anyone do it against my FE yet, people either expand after(a bit slower than mine), or try to all-in me asap.
Overall my charge was done at ~10:30 but i feel like i can get it earlier(i started citadel after obs was out on that test and it was a crappy attempt overall). If you're being one based by the point where your warpgates and nat are up, but charge isn't done, you probably will be able to see what's coming with obs and throw down like 6 warpgates with probecuts. It's probably just fine to be on 40-45probes with 2base against a 1base 30 scv/mule situation.
I am very curious in timings of a helion drop and i'll test it myself today when i get home. It probably is manageble if it comes after warpgates are done.
Want more engagements with 3tank/~10 rine w/ stim and 1 medivac (that joins the army when it's near my nat) attack. The time when I did not let it siege comfortably I easily won, but when it sieged nicely all my stuff evaporated (walking in a line into tank fire and shooting healed rine shield because terran switched route on desert oasis and i was coming from behind with small frontal flank certainly did not help :D). I still think it's manageble - my build/unit count was off a lot that game. And if it's more than 2 tanks I think immortal should get out, to send in front(into unsieged coming army, preferably).
After that what's up is to figure out HT timings, 3rd nexus timings, gateway counts against different kinds of late-1base pushes, different terran FE follow-ups.
The sweet and last stuff will be things like when to start to upgrade, when to go warp prism harrass and what to tech switch to (void rays/carriers/mothership/multiple robo stuff? w/e).
This overall should make pvt my best matchup until i do something similiar with pvz :D.
I like it because it progresses similiar to how I played my PvT in broodwar, and it looks like being on defensive with harrass potential and eco lead into late game tech advantage/map control abuse.
(1gate goon / 1gate goon reav FE -> 3gate goon/ 2gate goon reav 3rd nexus / 7gate 2stargate arb (or carrier if map's good), unless I 2base arb)
EDIT:
Ah yeah, today I also am going to test timings of terran FE openings, be it bunker/rine CC, or maradeur CC (i'm probably not gonna get a good tank CC off anyway).
I have a suspicion that against a quick CC from terran going for 1gate robo AND citadel before extra gates is viable :D. Fast charge or blink...though if i make the choice depending on observer scouting, I'd probably have to delay citadel a bit, perhaps going robo -> gates -> obs/citadel instead.
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I'll post replays when I get home from work, but I played a few games with this last night. Keep in mind I'm Silver league, so I don't know how much weight you want to put in my words.
Last night I played 4 league matches, 3 of those were vs. Terran, 1 Zerg, I didn't lose a single one. You can check this for yourself, get on the b.net forums and search up MilitantXIII and go to my match history. I wasn't using this build against the Zerg player, for him I used pretty standard 4-gate with a proxy pylon.
But anyway, Terran used to be my worst matchup. It seemed that no matter what I did, I couldn't do anything against early rine/rauder rushes. I'd either over-commit to defenses and have no mid game viability or pretty much just get rolled. After watching these replays and seeing how to execute the build and how to properly micro your early zlots and stalks, I feel like I've just been given a gun to bring to a knife fight.
I can post some replays of how it went last night after I get home from work. Granted, a couple of 'em were pretty sloppy, but I believe I've got the idea anyway. Even with just a basic understanding of the build, how to pull it off, and what to expect from the Terran player, I've just been stomping Silver Terran face.
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On August 18 2010 09:54 qczhao wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 07:23 Shaithis wrote:On August 18 2010 06:51 kcdc wrote:
This FE absolutely spanks 1-1-1 openers. Remember, the nexus gives a little more supply than a pylon, so it only takes 300 minerals + cost of extra probes for the FE to pay for itself. That happens very quickly--well before a good 1-1-1 timing attack will hit. Any attack that happens after that point would be stronger against a 1-base Protoss than a FE Protoss. The problem for you is that you are going to be 8-12 food behind me when I come pay you a visit, and you are not going to have the option to hide behind FF and make up the difference. As I am Terran and can sit behind wall & tech for the first 5 mins, my army consists of T1, T2 and T3 while yours consists of T1. I think that you misunderstand the definition of "timing," it's the timeframe during which you are weak and I am strong. As Terran, by turning all of my minerals and gas into supply, I am making myself strong. As Protoss, the opportunity cost of a FE (unit production, extra gateways) makes you weak until the benefit of the FE makes it up. You can argue about spanking as much as you wish, but the fact is that there is a definite timing window during which you are vulnerable; much more so to a 1-1-1 unit comp than a 3 rax comp as I have stronger units and you don't have the benefit of FF being able to affect my entire army. The premise of this post is: I take FE and beat Terran 100% of the time b/c of superior macro. I am highlighting the obvious counter from a 1-1-1 build (besides expanding myself, which is what I would have to do if I felt like I could not get away with a push). You should hit up kcdc and try some games against him. In my experience I can destroy 1/1/1 builds, even with a positional disadvantage (recent game i played on xel'naga caverns). Granted I'm only ~500 diamond but I think it's quite effective. The problem I have most with this build is a massive MMM+ghost push off 1 base, but I think it can be countered by cutting probes and making units instead. It's just a scouting thing.
Let's test this out tonight if you are available. We are at similar skill level I think. Obviously, I will expect you to not blindly add stargate / mass zealots instead of stalker + robo while expanding. 
I'll PM you with my ID once I get online.
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On August 18 2010 23:00 Shaithis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 09:54 qczhao wrote:On August 18 2010 07:23 Shaithis wrote:On August 18 2010 06:51 kcdc wrote:
This FE absolutely spanks 1-1-1 openers. Remember, the nexus gives a little more supply than a pylon, so it only takes 300 minerals + cost of extra probes for the FE to pay for itself. That happens very quickly--well before a good 1-1-1 timing attack will hit. Any attack that happens after that point would be stronger against a 1-base Protoss than a FE Protoss. The problem for you is that you are going to be 8-12 food behind me when I come pay you a visit, and you are not going to have the option to hide behind FF and make up the difference. As I am Terran and can sit behind wall & tech for the first 5 mins, my army consists of T1, T2 and T3 while yours consists of T1. I think that you misunderstand the definition of "timing," it's the timeframe during which you are weak and I am strong. As Terran, by turning all of my minerals and gas into supply, I am making myself strong. As Protoss, the opportunity cost of a FE (unit production, extra gateways) makes you weak until the benefit of the FE makes it up. You can argue about spanking as much as you wish, but the fact is that there is a definite timing window during which you are vulnerable; much more so to a 1-1-1 unit comp than a 3 rax comp as I have stronger units and you don't have the benefit of FF being able to affect my entire army. The premise of this post is: I take FE and beat Terran 100% of the time b/c of superior macro. I am highlighting the obvious counter from a 1-1-1 build (besides expanding myself, which is what I would have to do if I felt like I could not get away with a push). You should hit up kcdc and try some games against him. In my experience I can destroy 1/1/1 builds, even with a positional disadvantage (recent game i played on xel'naga caverns). Granted I'm only ~500 diamond but I think it's quite effective. The problem I have most with this build is a massive MMM+ghost push off 1 base, but I think it can be countered by cutting probes and making units instead. It's just a scouting thing. Let's test this out tonight if you are available. We are at similar skill level I think. Obviously, I will expect you to not blindly add stargate / mass zealots instead of stalker + robo while expanding. I'll PM you with my ID once I get online.
I've already done a few 'My build will beat this. Let's try it games." So far, my build has held, but I don't know. There might be something that can straight up break my defenses. Anyway, when I have the time to play, I'd much rather work on my PvZ or PvP where I'm still trying to work out how I'd like to play. Also, I'm sure a lot of people in this thread are now better at this build than I am with my 70 APM. Maybe try someone else.
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On August 18 2010 13:06 whateversclever wrote:
You should edit the first post to note that you added things to it. I didn't notice that until now. Good stuff.
Yep, I edited the OP to talk a little more in detail about the big challenge in the build--if you get 4 gates, you don't get detection in time to deal with a cloaked banshee rush, and if you get 3 gates into robo, you may lose to well-executed bio or marine-mech all-ins. Remember to scout as much as possible before you have to decide between a 4th gate or a robo!
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Hey so I'm playing around 750 diamond and have been FE'ing PvT to a high degree of success for the most part. The issue is on bad spawns on 4 player maps I have a hell of a lot of trouble holding the 3 rax. I consider my micro somewhat decent and am able to hold the early waves but once stim hits I lose all composure. I have held the the 3 rax push in almost any other scenario it's just close spawns on metal and even at times LT are brutal. I don't have a reasonable solution and just don't do it on close spawns anymore.
I feel like a lot of the issues people have with this build is the timing on your 3 warp gates being ready. When I scout the 3 rax going down or some fast timing push coming I can just put down my 3 gateways and keep chrono'ing warp gate tech and slightly delay my nexus. Pretty much 95% of the time I don't saturate my expo and use the nexus to tank a bit of damage while I get another production cycle in anyway. It can do it's job slightly later and even when I pull a decent amount of probes I can pull myself back into a stable economy...well at the same rate as the terran because MULEs are stupid. Any later pushes with some kind of 1/1/1 or ghost do little as my economy boosts.
Some kind of mech push with heavy marines and tanks is fairly bad as well. The robo is usually ready and an immortal or two is usually enough to break and you're in a solid position to go to colossus or drop more gates and keep pushing.
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On August 19 2010 02:06 Miraqle wrote:
Hey so I'm playing around 750 diamond and have been FE'ing PvT to a high degree of success for the most part. The issue is on bad spawns on 4 player maps I have a hell of a lot of trouble holding the 3 rax. I consider my micro somewhat decent and am able to hold the early waves but once stim hits I lose all composure. I have held the the 3 rax push in almost any other scenario it's just close spawns on metal and even at times LT are brutal. I don't have a reasonable solution and just don't do it on close spawns anymore.
I feel like a lot of the issues people have with this build is the timing on your 3 warp gates being ready. When I scout the 3 rax going down or some fast timing push coming I can just put down my 3 gateways and keep chrono'ing warp gate tech and slightly delay my nexus. Pretty much 95% of the time I don't saturate my expo and use the nexus to tank a bit of damage while I get another production cycle in anyway. It can do it's job slightly later and even when I pull a decent amount of probes I can pull myself back into a stable economy...well at the same rate as the terran because MULEs are stupid. Any later pushes with some kind of 1/1/1 or ghost do little as my economy boosts.
Some kind of mech push with heavy marines and tanks is fairly bad as well. The robo is usually ready and an immortal or two is usually enough to break and you're in a solid position to go to colossus or drop more gates and keep pushing.
Yeah, when I was doing testing games w/ Floophead, I found that it can get tricky against 3-rax on close positions on 4-player maps. I still go for it--I just cut probes after my nexus to throw down 3 gateways in a row and pump units like crazy w/ chronoboost. It's definitely tougher to hold against bio in the close positions, and if you try to gear up for 3-rax in close positions, you'll definitely be undefended against cloaked banshees. With good scouting, you can usually know which to defend against, but sometimes, T can hide his composition well and I find myself making an educated guess.
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EPT
