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Risen
United States7927 Posts
It just seems like this is very viable in a macro oriented game, but with Terran aggression so strong early against T I just don't see this working. Maybe I missed it but are there any replays of a T opting for early aggression and losing to this? Edit: I just want to see a replay of early reaper not wrecking this since all I've seen is a standard 3-rax push. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On August 19 2010 02:26 itzbrandnew wrote: My concern here is that even with your early 9pylon scout my standard opening in PvT is to go 8rax/8refinery and get two reapers out ASAP. Your scout hits me at various times but my reaper should already be building and your gateway is still warping in. If you chrono a zealot out I'll just walk around him and if you wait for the stalker then you're boned as well. This also applies to any proxy rax/early marauder w/ conc shells play. It just seems like this is very viable in a macro oriented game, but with Terran aggression so strong early against T I just don't see this working. Maybe I missed it but are there any replays of a T opting for early aggression and losing to this? Edit: I just want to see a replay of early reaper not wrecking this since all I've seen is a standard 3-rax push. I don't have the replays, but I've played several games against early reapers against a 14-gate with varying results. Against an economy-reaper (10-rax or later), 14-gate holds easily. Against an earlier barracks, the reaper cheese might win. It's a control battle with the super cheesy reapers. I'm often able to bait the reaper with my zealot into a spot where I can surround him with probes; these are easy wins. Against a better controlled reaper with a well-placed bunker followed up by a marauder, it's a lot harder. I've had games go either way. If you use a 14-gate on a 4-player map and have unlucky spawn positions such that you scout T's position last, you might lose to 7-rax reaper cheeses sometimes. | ||
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t3tsubo
Canada682 Posts
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On August 19 2010 02:43 kcdc wrote: I don't have the replays, but I've played several games against early reapers against a 14-gate with varying results. Against an economy-reaper (10-rax or later), 14-gate holds easily. Against an earlier barracks, the reaper cheese might win. It's a control battle with the super cheesy reapers. I'm often able to bait the reaper with my zealot into a spot where I can surround him probes; these are easy wins. Against a better controlled reaper with a well-placed bunker followed up by a marauder, it's a lot harder. I've had games go either way. If you use a 14-gate on a 4-player map and have unlucky spawn positions such that you scout T's position last, you might lose to 7-rax reaper cheeses sometimes. This makes sense. To be honest I've been facing the worst protoss lately... all they do is 4-gate. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
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link0
United States1071 Posts
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
Did you try this against a 1 base 3 rax-2reactor push? How well can this defend against mass marines before Collo's, templars and with a limited amount of sentries? | ||
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CookieFactory
United States43 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-140297.jpg) | ||
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Kalingingsong
Canada633 Posts
On August 19 2010 07:56 CookieFactory wrote: I tried this today on a Ladder match on Meta in cross positions. I scouted early rax pressure, but tried it anyway. My FE succumbed to early 3-rax marine push, and I'm wondering if there's anything I could've done to keep the expo? Should I not have continued after scouting what I did? I know I'm a huge noob and have plenty of holes in my overall game, but any pointers or observations are welcome. I think you should've just put down the 2 extra gates after ur expo right away instead of powering more probes. (since you scout the rax pressure coming) His marine force was slightly larger than your 1 gate force, but if u pulled about 10 probes I think you could've still held the expo, don't worry about losing some probes in this case, since he's already behind economically anyways. Aside from that (you'll probably have to ask kcdc about this part), I usually find that I can put down the nexus a bit earlier than 30ish, maybe its too greedy, but I generally put the 2nd nexus down at around 23 to 24 supply instead (if I know there are no proxy all ins coming), so if your trigger for building the 2nd and 3rd gate is the nexus being put down, this would also allow the 3 gates to come into effect faster too (although I don't know if resource constraints would become a problem, from my experience it hasn't really been a problem). The earlier nexus also allows you to have probes there that can be pulled to defend (instead of having to pull probes from your main etc). | ||
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CookieFactory
United States43 Posts
On August 19 2010 09:10 Kalingingsong wrote: I think you should've just put down the 2 extra gates after ur expo right away instead of powering more probes. (since you scout the rax pressure coming) His marine force was slightly larger than your 1 gate force, but if u pulled about 10 probes I think you could've still held the expo, don't worry about losing some probes in this case, since he's already behind economically anyways. Aside from that (you'll probably have to ask kcdc about this part), I usually find that I can put down the nexus a bit earlier than 30ish, maybe its too greedy, but I generally put the 2nd nexus down at around 23 to 24 supply instead (if I know there are no proxy all ins coming), so if your trigger for building the 2nd and 3rd gate is the nexus being put down, this would also allow the 3 gates to come into effect faster too (although I don't know if resource constraints would become a problem, from my experience it hasn't really been a problem). The earlier nexus also allows you to have probes there that can be pulled to defend (instead of having to pull probes from your main etc). Hey man, thanks a lot for the feedback - I appreciate it. Yeah you're likely right if I had either laid the expo down slightly earlier (and thus had probes to pull) or had pulled several probes, I may have been able to save the expo. I guess the replay here shows is this FE build against a decent amount (10-12) of marine pressure (which early on is a pretty high DPS army) at the 5-6 minute mark instead of marauder pressure starting around 8 minutes or so. What's surprising is how a 1 gateway army was nearly enough to repel the attack - maybe just another 20 seconds or so, or like you mentioned putting down gateways 2 and 3 earlier. Definitely something I can work on. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
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Kalingingsong
Canada633 Posts
the terrans i've played all went for some gay 3 rax into 2 fact into ghosts (all on 1 base) all-ins, and every game they just barely breakthrough to kill me. Its tempting to go void rays but every loss seems so close that I feel if I just adjust a few things i can make this work. | ||
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nialo
United States11 Posts
As far as I can tell 14gate isn't really required to make the fast expand work, and is just sortof what kcdc specifically does. | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-140367.jpg) no way this is defendable... srsly | ||
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Wayem
France455 Posts
First game: 4rax marines without add-ons. Just naked rax. + push with about 8/9 SCVs and constant reinforcment. He didn't even scout my expo. I died. Second game: fast hellions + reapers. He just roasted every probe I had. gg.  Any advice against those builds ? | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia984 Posts
How do you get nexus at ~24? This doesn't seem to make sense to me since for that time you only know pretty much if they went for a very early CC, that's it. Otherwise T've just gotten 2nd rine out and you're about to lose a probe or be denied future scouting. That is also golden time for terran to proxy. If you 30 nexus, they at least have to KNOW you as a player in order to proxy "ahead of time". If you do 24, it is directly counerable by proxying 2 more barracks - you've obviously cut units or squeezed a sentry too early for 24 nexus. By the way, since using this build I feel more comfortable against terran, and I've had some interesting games earlier. As my rank rises, it's gotten common that I play same person two times in a row :D. First game against a certain ~950 diamond terran, he probably seen it for the first time only - he tried to attack across map with glorious force of 1 marine 1 maradeur, lose both on retreat from 1zealot 1 stalker. I proceeded to go up his no-wall ramp with now 2stalker 1zealot, knowing I'd at least scout his tech and pressure his army while unit count is even (extra barracks normally kick in 2 waves earlier than warp, so trading units before that - if terran wastes first couple it's viable - is very good). IDK why, perhaps he's missed a unit, but I've seen he was 3raxing with new raxes just done. Even forced him to pull ~6 scvs while killing equal cost army. Fast forward ~4 minute, I have an immortal, observer seeing him switch to expo forgoing his attack. If he'd get bunkers or more than 2 tank, I would expand to gold and get HTs...but he didn't, so I just busted his front for the win. The next game was against the same guy - which was a good opportunity to test how'd he adapt knowing what I'm opting for beforehand. Blistering Sands. I see the usual 2rine, no immediate 3rax with scv cut in sight...my probe dies. My zealot goes to xel naga watch tower and overall is scouting the bottom part(i'm on top left). The chrono'ed stalker goes to 2nd watch tower and overall 12-top location, and kills an scv there. What I was looking for? For proxies. Unfortunately, I thought that scv was on the watch tower. If I paid more attention or was faster, I'd notice that it was coming from the right, not left - the enemy just finished a factory there and lifted it to my main. I did not have pylon on edge, and I should've scouted that location with zealot as the more dangerous one due to float. In the end, he pressured me with a SMALL amount of rine/rad and I rolled it with my army, but he backstabbed with helions on probes and killed ~7 despite whatever micro because stalker was half way done, then it was 2 helions running around one stalker, before my army came back...ugh. Luckily, he kept trying to pressure front with rine/rad while making more helions in the back - so I got to kill some stuff for free this time and counter. When I came there, his nat was just finished, and he had 2rax in main with 2more going on. Getting up the ramp, I've done some terrible damage and won the game(leaving at least 1 stalker at home for damn helions...no time to kill the factory and it'd float anyway) - but I felt that if he did not lose last force uselessly and get ~2 bunkers with mass repair till it's 4rax production, I'd be toast. When game ended we both were on same resource count despite me being in ~5 probe lead when nexus finished. That being said, I should've scouted proxy, first looking for floatable locations. I also should've sent as much units as necessary to decisevely kill his marine/maradeur force, not going overkill on him. Lastly, long ass distance between main and nat on blistering didn't help, either. Personally I feel like it's an awesome build. Against fast reapers I've had mixed results - I've won every game, but i'd micro horribly early on, not saving damaged probes, and I'd be behind once reapers were out, specially if they forced more probe pull with the bunker...then they'd make a maradeur out of their proxy rax, I'd kill maradeur, kill 2nd maradeur(no clue why they made it), force that rax lifting, pressure before terrain has unit advantage again while expanding, win enough time for extra warpgates to finish due to map being desert oasis or something else with easy proxy but long rush distance (  ), defend(they did not expo) or crush(they did) counter with forcefields and units from fresh warpgates, learn that almost everyone who opens reapers has shitty midgame and macro, harrass them with charge/warp prism+chrono warpgates/ storm drops, mass expand, have obs watch everything and get mother ship/void rays...Still, need to save those damn probes :|. Early this week before I was expanding a good(although a bit lucky, it was too close yet I failed to notice) proxy with a properly positioned bunker(between my stuff so no probe surround) and a maradeur after reaper totally owned me (on scrap stations). But it's more of a matter of early game micro than a 'perfect build order win'. | ||
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altairian
United States105 Posts
On August 19 2010 13:42 Kiarip wrote: no way this is defendable... srsly It is, you're actually expanding too early. Your gateway should be in constant, chrono'd production until you expand. I also find sentries to be useless against early terran timing attacks, you're better off just getting another zealot and saving the gas for tech. The most important thing is to keep your stalkers alive, the way you micro'd it you basically gave him a free stalker kill before you even started fighting back. Watch kcdc's replays, it can be held although that particular timing attack is the hardest, especially close positions. Having your stalkers on the cliff helps, high ground is so much better in sc2 than it is in sc1 since they HAVE to have vision in order to even shoot at you. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/59823-1v1-terran-protoss-steppes-of-war Absolutely...godamned hilarious. You need to outmacro the ball to stand a chance and they just sneak a couple of medivacs in one side, and send the rest of the blob in the other. Absolutely no way to cover both sides. Can they make Marauders cost 50 gas a piece, yet? | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On August 20 2010 04:53 Bibdy wrote: This is just hilarious http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/59823-1v1-terran-protoss-steppes-of-war Absolutely...godamned hilarious. You need to outmacro the ball to stand a chance and they just sneak a couple of medivacs in one side, and send the rest of the blob in the other. Absolutely no way to cover both sides. Can they make Marauders cost 50 gas a piece, yet? You made 2 very unnecessary assimilators, delaying your nexus by 150 minerals. Why would you steal their gas with a build like this? That invites terran to get an earlier expo or mass marine/marauder pressure from them, when what you want them to do is waste minerals/gas on tech buildings that won't hurt you until mid-game. You actually mined gas from your 2nd gas, delaying your nexus by even more minerals. You had 300 minerals at 6:24, but did not make 2 more gates until 6:58. You didn't make your robo for a long time after the 2 gates, despite hitting 200 minerals/100 gas very quickly. In fact, during this time you had around 700 minerals which could've started more gates as well. This robo sat around idle for 22 seconds before making an observer. Given everything else mentioned before, your observer at this point could easily be 2-3 minutes later than that of someone who executed the build properly. Then all you'd have to do is follow the medivacs with your obs and see any drops. Also, you forgot to research charge. All in all, I think you need to understand that when you drop 400 minerals on something that doesn't attack, you absolutely cannot afford to delay important buildings and tech that will help you hold off the mid-game push. | ||
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EPT
