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[G] kcdc's PvT FE - Page 7

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Shron
Profile Joined March 2010
United States162 Posts
August 17 2010 09:10 GMT
#121
This has to be the best PvT build there is right now. I've been winning 80%~ of games vs terran when before it was closer to 30%~, and my win ratio went way up because it was previously my worst matchup! :D

So why isn't everyone using this already? I don't understand.
"I produced a lot of units and was given this award. I didn't know I produced so many units. Next season I will produce more units." - Nestea
Wayem
Profile Joined May 2010
France455 Posts
August 17 2010 09:22 GMT
#122
I didn't read all the 6 pages but this strat looks gorgeous if it works. I'm checking the replays tonight.

Could you please, dear OP, post a replay of you against a 1/1/1 or a marine/ghost push ? I guess those 2 might be the easier to deal with your fast expand, but if you have it I would be really interested. thanks !
"who needs micro when you can have more stuff ?" -day9
Drazzzt
Profile Joined September 2002
Germany999 Posts
August 17 2010 12:02 GMT
#123
Has anyone tried this FE build against this strat:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=129669

?

I'm at work and can't watch the reps, but I'd assume that it might be not too easy to hold.
Be Nice, Be Fair, Be Mannered.
Bibdy
Profile Joined March 2010
United States3481 Posts
August 17 2010 12:07 GMT
#124
I've been using this strat since last night and it feels surprisingly comfortable. You just need to keep that first gateway and Nexus pumping units like a lunatic. Being really greedy with the 14-Gate can come back to bite you on the ass if they do one of those stupid proxy conc-shell Marauder strats, but you only see those on specific 2-player maps like Xel'Naga or Blistering. The build gives you a huge advantage (aka actual balance) in the mid-game with the vastly superior economy.
Doko
Profile Joined May 2010
Argentina1737 Posts
August 17 2010 12:30 GMT
#125
Gonna give this a try on my next ladder games. Sounds good on maps with easy to defend naturals. I wouldn't feel very comfortable against banshees being spread so thin early on, pretty sure the fastest banshees builds will arrive at your base around the time the 1st obs is out.

Can any terrans give me the time for the most common builds with cloak? I did one vs ai and I could have a banshee out at around 7:30 but then again i don't play terran.

Xanatoss
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany539 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-17 15:03:37
August 17 2010 14:02 GMT
#126
On August 17 2010 21:02 Drazzzt wrote:
Has anyone tried this FE build against this strat:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=129669

?

I'm at work and can't watch the reps, but I'd assume that it might be not too easy to hold.


By the time that push hits (around 7:30?) P allready has a decent amount of units out, so it is at least not autolose for P.

I experimented with that opening for some games now and I recognized that CB climbs up really quickly because it seems I can not afford (for some time after expo) further Tech (except Robo) beside double Probe and Gateway Production if I use my Robo for Immos aswell instead of just Obs. Therefore I cut 1 additional Gate and stay on 2 constantly boosted Warpgates + Robo producing Immos until my Econ advantage kicks in and I can get Forge(s)/TC.

On August 17 2010 21:30 Doko wrote:
Gonna give this a try on my next ladder games. Sounds good on maps with easy to defend naturals. I wouldn't feel very comfortable against banshees being spread so thin early on, pretty sure the fastest banshees builds will arrive at your base around the time the 1st obs is out.

Can any terrans give me the time for the most common builds with cloak? I did one vs ai and I could have a banshee out at around 7:30 but then again i don't play terran.



Last time I did a Banshee Rush first one poped at 6:35, 2nd at 7:36 with cloak finishing between them (at leat thats what my notes say). With travel distance added you have to take Banshees into Account around the 8 Min Mark.
The chair slowly turns around. You see his face, but it can't be. He's not supposed to be here. Not him. Not a Protoss. Not THAT Protoss. MC says, "Hi Greg, long time no see." You back slowly out of the booth. But you can't. It's already forcefielded.
Shifft
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada1085 Posts
August 17 2010 14:25 GMT
#127
This build and 1 void ray -> expand have become my standards depending on the map. Really solid work kcdc thanks.
=O
MilitantXIII
Profile Joined August 2010
United States10 Posts
August 17 2010 18:11 GMT
#128
Just discovered this thread today. Like a lot of toss I've talked to, PvT is my worst matchup. I'm at work right now, but I'm definitely giving this a try after work.

Pretty much every question I had was answered in the previous posts, and I really can't wait to give this a shot.

I'm only Silver league at the moment, so this should rock it pretty hard. :D
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums.
Shaithis
Profile Joined March 2010
United States383 Posts
August 17 2010 18:36 GMT
#129
I play 1-1-1 in TvP. If I saw you drop a FE, I would cancel any upgrades and pump marine + tank + banshee to push the expo, then pull back while expanding myself. Just a few unsieged tanks will take out all your stalkers while my marines and token banshees take out your sentries + zealots. Don't really see how you can defend your expo from this, presuming I do not try to push your base.
Nah
Profile Joined February 2010
Poland50 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-17 20:06:40
August 17 2010 20:06 GMT
#130
On August 18 2010 03:36 Shaithis wrote:
I play 1-1-1 in TvP. If I saw you drop a FE, I would cancel any upgrades and pump marine + tank + banshee to push the expo, then pull back while expanding myself. Just a few unsieged tanks will take out all your stalkers while my marines and token banshees take out your sentries + zealots. Don't really see how you can defend your expo from this, presuming I do not try to push your base.

Shaithis: Can you post some replays of this play? Would be very helpful. Thanks!
Protoss wins it all
Shaithis
Profile Joined March 2010
United States383 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-17 20:19:14
August 17 2010 20:17 GMT
#131
On August 18 2010 05:06 Nah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2010 03:36 Shaithis wrote:
I play 1-1-1 in TvP. If I saw you drop a FE, I would cancel any upgrades and pump marine + tank + banshee to push the expo, then pull back while expanding myself. Just a few unsieged tanks will take out all your stalkers while my marines and token banshees take out your sentries + zealots. Don't really see how you can defend your expo from this, presuming I do not try to push your base.

Shaithis: Can you post some replays of this play? Would be very helpful. Thanks!


Don't have any post-beta yet, sorry. Will work on it tomorrow. Basic premise is that marine + tank + banshee has a timing window vs any FE b/c it's such a strong composition vs gateway armies. I base can support constant tanks, banshees and marines from 1-1-1 as long as you don't research upgrades; mass units, take out FE and run before they warp in enough reinforcements. The macro advantage should win you the game.
altairian
Profile Joined May 2010
United States105 Posts
August 17 2010 20:45 GMT
#132
mmhmm and 3rax marauder pushes are amazing against protoss too

It all depends on how the timings play out, you may be right and it may be a viable way to stop the FE, or it may work out like the bio pushes seem to where they're just a hair too late and we're able to hold it off. Early pushes with banshee support definitely sound harder to fight off than bio pushes are, but it really depends how quickly you can get an effective force before we're on 5 gates + council researching charge + robo
Easy772
Profile Joined May 2010
374 Posts
August 17 2010 20:59 GMT
#133
Hey, diamond Toss here currently around 550 having the most problems with Terran. I think most of my losses are vs T.. On some maps, I do a very similar build in my 2v2 team while my partner goes 1 base. Didn't think It could work well in 1v1. What makes me think it will is that you chronoboost your gateway, sounds really interesting because I feel w/o upgrades (stim/shields/shell) my tier 1 units are better than the T's. I'll have to give it a try.
"The best way to improve is to play one matchup on one map doing one strategy.. if you are good at one strategy you are a good player, if you are okay at many strategies you are an okay player at best" -Day[9] 181
Xanatoss
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany539 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-17 21:29:00
August 17 2010 21:25 GMT
#134
On August 18 2010 05:45 altairian wrote:
mmhmm and 3rax marauder pushes are amazing against protoss too

It all depends on how the timings play out, you may be right and it may be a viable way to stop the FE, or it may work out like the bio pushes seem to where they're just a hair too late and we're able to hold it off. Early pushes with banshee support definitely sound harder to fight off than bio pushes are, but it really depends how quickly you can get an effective force before we're on 5 gates + council researching charge + robo


Typical 1/1/1 Push will hit far far earlier. Actually did the Build at Yabot and the 50 Food Push starts around 7:40 (+Travel Time). By that time kcdc's opening can afford about 15 Gateway Units (+Travel Time Cycles depending on Map) and 1 Immortal. The Immo can be substituted by 2 Stalkers and the whole mix must contain a maximal gas amount of 650 (~ 800 Gas mined until 7:40 minus 50 for Warpgate Tech and 100 for Robo).
The 1/1/1 Push contains around 16 Marines without Upgrades, 2 Tanks without Siege and 2 Banshees without cloak _or_ 1 Banshee without cloak and a raven with 100 Energy as the push arrives + potentialy SCV's.

So, what do you guys think about this?
The chair slowly turns around. You see his face, but it can't be. He's not supposed to be here. Not him. Not a Protoss. Not THAT Protoss. MC says, "Hi Greg, long time no see." You back slowly out of the booth. But you can't. It's already forcefielded.
Easy772
Profile Joined May 2010
374 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-17 21:46:05
August 17 2010 21:37 GMT
#135
On August 18 2010 06:25 Xanatoss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 18 2010 05:45 altairian wrote:
mmhmm and 3rax marauder pushes are amazing against protoss too

It all depends on how the timings play out, you may be right and it may be a viable way to stop the FE, or it may work out like the bio pushes seem to where they're just a hair too late and we're able to hold it off. Early pushes with banshee support definitely sound harder to fight off than bio pushes are, but it really depends how quickly you can get an effective force before we're on 5 gates + council researching charge + robo


Typical 1/1/1 Push will hit far far earlier. Actually did the Build at Yabot and the 50 Food Push starts around 7:40 (+Travel Time). By that time kcdc's opening can afford about 15 Gateway Units (+Travel Time Cycles depending on Map) and 1 Immortal. The Immo can be substituted by 2 Stalkers and the whole mix must contain a maximal gas amount of 650 (~ 800 Gas mined until 7:40 minus 50 for Warpgate Tech and 100 for Robo).
The 1/1/1 Push contains around 16 Marines without Upgrades, 2 Tanks without Siege and 2 Banshees without cloak _or_ 1 Banshee without cloak and a raven with 100 Energy as the push arrives + potentialy SCV's.

So, what do you guys think about this?




This is good stuff, I'm often unsure of when to expand vs T.

EDIT: Definitely gonna try this against some of my Terran buddies.

"The best way to improve is to play one matchup on one map doing one strategy.. if you are good at one strategy you are a good player, if you are okay at many strategies you are an okay player at best" -Day[9] 181
FortuneSyn
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
1826 Posts
August 17 2010 21:42 GMT
#136
On August 18 2010 03:36 Shaithis wrote:
I play 1-1-1 in TvP. If I saw you drop a FE, I would cancel any upgrades and pump marine + tank + banshee to push the expo, then pull back while expanding myself. Just a few unsieged tanks will take out all your stalkers while my marines and token banshees take out your sentries + zealots. Don't really see how you can defend your expo from this, presuming I do not try to push your base.


this is plain false. I'm sorry I don't have reps to back it up, but a FE build can handle any 1-1-1 push, especially that one.
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
August 17 2010 21:51 GMT
#137
This FE absolutely spanks 1-1-1 openers. Remember, the nexus gives a little more supply than a pylon, so it only takes 300 minerals + cost of extra probes for the FE to pay for itself. That happens very quickly--well before a good 1-1-1 timing attack will hit. Any attack that happens after that point would be stronger against a 1-base Protoss than a FE Protoss.
Mnijykmirl
Profile Joined February 2010
United States299 Posts
August 17 2010 21:54 GMT
#138
Test it out in games.
coltrane
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Chile988 Posts
August 17 2010 21:55 GMT
#139
I think 12 gate without zealot is superior to 14 gate with one zealot.
Jävla skit
Chronopolis
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada1484 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-17 22:19:21
August 17 2010 22:18 GMT
#140
Going to definitely try this build, imo, it needs a lot of ironing out, but it should be viable with superb execution. So much pressure on the protoss to scout, interpret and micro to defend perfectly.
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